Divorce...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 27 2005, 03:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 27 2005, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 03:17 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Jan 27 2005, 09:46 AM

In a good marriage, the Me or I don't show up in the ways some have listed above.

I believe that selfishness is what leads to divorce.

What planet were you born on, sis? There is no such thing as "selflessness". Yes, you are considerate of the other person's needs. Why, because you want something in return, and have a right to expect it----that is not selflessness, it is indeed, selfish, but it is not UNREASONABLE selfishness. It is reasonable to want for yourself, things like kindness from the other person, and you have the right to expect the other to fulfill your reasonable needs. That is why women need to put out and men need to get a job, as a general rule. If either party renegs on the deal, it has a good chance of falling apart.

It's not about selfishness or unselfishness, its about understanding reasonable expectations, and fulfilling them.

Let's put it this way, most men don't need an "unselfish" doormat of a wife. They want a wife that gets a lot of selfish pleasure out of pleasing him--in other words, she likes sex too. There is nothing worse than making love to a corpse.

Cal, you seem to know so much about what it takes not to have a divorce.

Do you have a healthy marriage to a woman?

Have you been through a divorce?

You have a way of SHOUTING in your posts that just doesn't radiate a healthy attitude about relationships.

Yep, very healthy---I beat her every nite and everyone is happy--JUST KIDDING, JUST KIDDING---- marriage presently is great..

The capitalization is not intended as SHOUTING, it is added for emphasis as in normal conversation. If this is how it comes across, I will have KNOCK IT OFF. Some one complained about the before--old habits die slowly.

I got divorced 20 or so years ago---mistake was getting married at 22, just off my mission and hadn't finished college, and had 3 kids right away--big mistake. I should have waited until later for all of it. Seen it happen to lots of my friends too. Love my kids, but should have waited---I advised my kids to do just that---and it has worked out great for them.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 27 2005, 02:17 PM

There is nothing worse than making love to a corpse.

Are you speaking from experience? :)

I agree with most of what Cal says on this topic. In general, men marry more for looks, and women put more emphasis on finding a mate who will be a good provider. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the general rule. I also agree that most men like to feel like they are the leader in their home, but there are exceptions to this as well. I've seen a few very successful marriages where the husband was more passive and purposely married an ambitious, go-getter to add a little "spice" to their life. I've also seen women like that emasulate their husbands, and end up divorced without even seeing how their aggressive behavior affected their gentle spouse.

I also think that BOTH spouses have a responsibility to keep themselves attractive for their spouse--especially if they are married to a "visual" person.

As to the frequency of sex, a man would get A LOT more sex if he warmed up his wife in Non sexual ways (ie: conversation, help, foot rubs, genuine compliments, etc.) first! There's nothing that makes a woman feel less sexy than to feel completely unconnected emotionally to her husband.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 27 2005, 07:18 PM

As to the frequency of sex, a man would get A LOT more sex if he warmed up his wife in Non sexual ways (ie: conversation, help, foot rubs, genuine compliments, etc.) first! There's nothing that makes a woman feel less sexy than to feel completely unconnected emotionally to her husband.

This is true, but many men just do not grasp this concept. How do I know this? Comments just like the one above from curvette.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 27 2005, 03:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 27 2005, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jan 27 2005, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jan 27 2005, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 02:09 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Writer_Chick1213@Jan 27 2005, 07:40 AM

oi. Ok obviously i'm not married, but do you really think that is what marriage is about? Who's in control? Sex? Money? I really suggest you go to the proclamation to the family set out by the first presidency. I mean my gosh, the tips you people are giving (except for pushka, that actually made sense) are sure ways to destroy a marriage. In all of these you're showing a complete lack of respect for each other which is what often causes a marriage to deteriorate. This lack of respect can lead to abuse, physical, mental, verbal, and emotional abuse. My suggestion for the person who asked the question: don't listen to anyone on here, go to the scriptures, and the prophets advice.

If that is true, why are there so many divorces even in the Church.

And, who said anything about abuse? Where did you get that? I simply outlined what I see as the expectations that people have comming into a marriage, and why they get married. Of course you should treat your spouse with respect, but that doesn't mean that you both have to have the same roles or expectations. As a general rule, men want to be taken care of sexually, and women want to be taken care of "walet-ly". Both have to understand that. If you don't give a man the sex he wants (that includes keeping yourself reasonably presentable) he's going to stray, at least mentally. If you don't give a woman a decent standard of living, she's going to hit the trail, if she can manage to take you for enough.

I think you are stretching things a bit (maybe not as much as DisRuptive1, but still stretching things.)

I think women are only interested in taking you to the cleaners if she is poorly treated in lots of ways. Or horribly treated in only one or two ways. Many women want nothing more than to be "out". They don't even want the money because that constantly reminds them of the absolute horrid conditions they lived under for so long. Believe me, I speak from experience.

Some men just think that anything a woman gets is too much. Often a man encourages the woman to not work, to be an in-the-home worker, and when they mistreat the woman and the woman wants out, and enough money for support (since they no longer have marketable skills), they cry the blues. But they are the ones that created that situation.

You haven't stated one single thing that you disagreed with me about.

All you refered to where the evils of ABUSE. Where did I advocate ANY abuse? I abhor abuse--there is no place for it in any relationship, and if it occurs, the partner should high tail it out of there yesterday?

Please address the things I said, state them specifically, and comment on them, not something I DIDN'T say.

Also, I'm not talking about what "SOME" men do--obviously there are SOME men who will do ANYTHING. Again, I don't advocate abuse, nor condone it.

Are you implying that to expect your wife to fulfill her role as a sexual partner to be an "abuse". Read again what PD had to say, he said it extremely well.

Cal, you made one gigantic sweeping stereotype of women that just doesn't hold water. I have never known any woman who married a man for his wallet. The point of my post was that the only time the wallet seems to be involved is when the woman is abused, and then, depending on the severity of the abuse, the wallet is of no use or of ultimate use. It would be helpful to speak to truths rather than stereotypes.

Jenda--first I'm not dealing with stereotypes, I'm dealing with what GENERALLY happens. Let me ask you, how often do you see a really classy HOT looking, young woman with a POOR guy? As a rule you don't. (of course there are exceptions). On the other hand, how often do you see really young hot chicks with ugly, but filty rich dudes---all the time.

Generally speaking, guys get as hot a chick as their walet can afford, and girls get as rich a guy as their looks will attract. That is the general truth--yes there are exceptions, but we're not talking about the exceptions, just the general reality.

Women hate to admit these truths. They say, "oh, I married him for his wonderful personality". Yeah, but if his wonderful personality hadn't included at least the potential for a wonderful bottomline it might have been a different story.

Now, fat ugly girls have to settle for what ever they can get, which may mean a nice, poor guy, with a great personality. Sorry for telling the truth ladies, but if you want to attract educated, successful guys, loose 70 lbs and learn to put on some makeup.

Jenda, the reason you haven't "heard" of any girls who marry for this reason is because they generally don't admit it out loud, especially to men. They are no fools. Just like men never admit that they mainly want great sex, first and what ever else comes second. Women want money first, and sex second.

Well, Cal, you must just hang out with the worst types of people because I have lived in many places and in all my life, I have only known one girl who I would call a gold-digger. Most of the people I know have married for love, and the size of the wallet played no factor. In fact, I have, more recently, heard of the opposite happening. Many men are looking for women to support them so they don't have to go out and get a job. I have heard men say this. "Man, why didn't you marry someone who could keep you?" It goes both ways.

Are there gold-diggers out there? Yes. Are they the majority of society? NO!

[DisRuptive1]

How much does the guy in the picture make?

Here's a good reason why divorces happen:

Before marriage:After marriage:

Oh and btw, I speak from the experience of a man who has been married and divorced 4 times. So me and Cal should be able to cover all the bases, unsuccessful marriages and a successful marriage.

[pushka]

Gosh! disruptive and cal...you both sound soo sexist...I really can't believe the things you are posting.

As others like Curvette have stated, yes it is important for both partners to try to keep themselves healthy and in shape...this is not always possible due to illness, is that a valid reason for the husband to seek satisfaction from a love affair too?

Disruptive and Cal appear to be living in somewhere like Hollywood judging by the examples of reasons why men and women marry each other...again as other posters have stated, there will always be those shallow enough to marry just for good looks and money...celebrities most likely!! Are these the sort of people you would like to consider yourself to be? No wonder you have been divorced!

May I say that I married my partner after being with him for 6 years. I met him when I was 17 and he was 19. I knew, when I met him, that he was unemployed...we both were, yes I actively encouraged him to get a job and sought one myself, but I didn't expect him to get a 'high flying' job that could keep me and see me jetting off in some luxurious lifestyle! We were together for 17 years altogther...our sex life was very healthy until he suggested sexual practises that I found disgusting...(do you really want me to go into detail? I am not just talking different positions in bed here...lol), and he also wanted us to 'swing', wife swap or whatever term you wish to use...I was not happy to go along with this in a 'normal' marriage, and would hope that you guys on here would see that as a good enough reason to lose interest in having sex with him frequently anymore...I still did have sex with him whenever I could stomach it, but felt more and more depressed at his complete disrespect for me and our marriage vows. He didn't help out very much around the house or with our 2 young children either, he was very selfish, spending the majority of his money on 'toys' for himself rather than us pooling our resources and treating the family to days out and such. Do you think I had good enough grounds for a divorce? By the way, I later found out that he was having affairs even before we were married, it was just in his nature...and no, I'm not a glamour model or anything, but I was considered to be good looking, some of his friends even acknowledged this, but I resisted their charms! wish I hadn't done now...

I hope this sort of answers some of your questions Cal, about what it was I disagreed with in points 5 and 6 of your original post. I don't think either partner should be demanding of the other, they should talk about things they disagree upon in a reasonable manner. Neither partner should denigrate the other and yes, respect is the most important feature of a marriage....tolerance of certain imperfections too, as long as the partner being tolerated doesn't take advantage of this and take it to mean that it can excuse all sorts of bad behaviour.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 28 2005, 03:52 AM

Gosh! disruptive and cal...you both sound soo sexist...I really can't believe the things you are posting.

As others like Curvette have stated, yes it is important for both partners to try to keep themselves healthy and in shape...this is not always possible due to illness, is that a valid reason for the husband to seek satisfaction from a love affair too?

Disruptive and Cal appear to be living in somewhere like Hollywood judging by the examples of reasons why men and women marry each other...again as other posters have stated, there will always be those shallow enough to marry just for good looks and money...celebrities most likely!! Are these the sort of people you would like to consider yourself to be? No wonder you have been divorced!

May I say that I married my partner after being with him for 6 years. I met him when I was 17 and he was 19. I knew, when I met him, that he was unemployed...we both were, yes I actively encouraged him to get a job and sought one myself, but I didn't expect him to get a 'high flying' job that could keep me and see me jetting off in some luxurious lifestyle! We were together for 17 years altogther...our sex life was very healthy until he suggested sexual practises that I found disgusting...(do you really want me to go into detail? I am not just talking different positions in bed here...lol), and he also wanted us to 'swing', wife swap or whatever term you wish to use...I was not happy to go along with this in a 'normal' marriage, and would hope that you guys on here would see that as a good enough reason to lose interest in having sex with him frequently anymore...I still did have sex with him whenever I could stomach it, but felt more and more depressed at his complete disrespect for me and our marriage vows. He didn't help out very much around the house or with our 2 young children either, he was very selfish, spending the majority of his money on 'toys' for himself rather than us pooling our resources and treating the family to days out and such. Do you think I had good enough grounds for a divorce? By the way, I later found out that he was having affairs even before we were married, it was just in his nature...and no, I'm not a glamour model or anything, but I was considered to be good looking, some of his friends even acknowledged this, but I resisted their charms! wish I hadn't done now...

I hope this sort of answers some of your questions Cal, about what it was I disagreed with in points 5 and 6 of your original post. I don't think either partner should be demanding of the other, they should talk about things they disagree upon in a reasonable manner. Neither partner should denigrate the other and yes, respect is the most important feature of a marriage....tolerance of certain imperfections too, as long as the partner being tolerated doesn't take advantage of this and take it to mean that it can excuse all sorts of bad behaviour.

Great post Pushka. I am happy to see you posting more.

I agree that some men were just born shallow, or maybe this is learned behavior? Either way it turns into the selfishness I mentioned earlier in this thread.

It is very sad to me that many men feel that they need a trophy wife to aid in their self esteem.

When a couple marries they don't have any idea what their life will bring them.

1. Maybe they will get a few lucky breaks and make a lot of money.

2. Maybe they will have lots of hardships early on in life and never seem to get into the fast track where money is plentiful.

In example number 1, if the woman becomes the major money maker should she kick her less attractive husband to the curb because there is another man who is better looking or could further her career? I have not heard of this happening before.

In example number 2, if a woman married a less attractive man because she felt that he would get her the finer things in life, but failed, should she leave him? well maybe...j/k.

I agree with Jenda, women don't marry men because of money or the potential of money, they marry because of love. I married my husband because I fell in love with him my senior year in high school, he was the president of our seminary class. He has a great personality and he is very kind to others. I didn't realize it at the time, but those are still the traits he carries with him and have made him successful in his career. When I married my husband he had just returned from his mission and the first job that he got was one that paid less then mine but I didn't care. As we began to have children I learned that my husband wanted to be the one to support the family, so I consented to stay home for a time. I encouraged my husband to grasp that next brass ring at every opportunity that arose. We shared in his successes and we still do as he has done well. Do I love him more because he has done well? No, I love him more because we have done this together and the trials that we have shared bond us, and strengthen our relationship. Our love has been a strong foundation to build upon and I remember those early years with a smile on my face.

I wonder if the person who started this thread is even still around, and if this is what they had in mind.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jan 28 2005, 02:00 AM

How much does the guy in the picture make?

Here's a good reason why divorces happen:

Oh and btw, I speak from the experience of a man who has been married and divorced 4 times. So me and Cal should be able to cover all the bases, unsuccessful marriages and a successful marriage.

I don't think he makes much money at all; he can't even afford a suit big enough to cover the poor girl!

I hope the man you are referring to isn't yourself! I mean, really at your age!

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette+Jan 27 2005, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Jan 27 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 27 2005, 02:17 PM

There is nothing worse than making love to a corpse.

Are you speaking from experience? :)

I agree with most of what Cal says on this topic. In general, men marry more for looks, and women put more emphasis on finding a mate who will be a good provider. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the general rule. I also agree that most men like to feel like they are the leader in their home, but there are exceptions to this as well. I've seen a few very successful marriages where the husband was more passive and purposely married an ambitious, go-getter to add a little "spice" to their life. I've also seen women like that emasulate their husbands, and end up divorced without even seeing how their aggressive behavior affected their gentle spouse.

I also think that BOTH spouses have a responsibility to keep themselves attractive for their spouse--especially if they are married to a "visual" person.

As to the frequency of sex, a man would get A LOT more sex if he warmed up his wife in Non sexual ways (ie: conversation, help, foot rubs, genuine compliments, etc.) first! There's nothing that makes a woman feel less sexy than to feel completely unconnected emotionally to her husband.

I agree that men need to be communicative and connected emotionally to their wives. And as you have said, what I am talking about is the rule, not the exceptions as there are many.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 27 2005, 07:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 27 2005, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jan 27 2005, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jan 27 2005, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 27 2005, 02:09 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Writer_Chick1213@Jan 27 2005, 07:40 AM

oi. Ok obviously i'm not married, but do you really think that is what marriage is about? Who's in control? Sex? Money? I really suggest you go to the proclamation to the family set out by the first presidency. I mean my gosh, the tips you people are giving (except for pushka, that actually made sense) are sure ways to destroy a marriage. In all of these you're showing a complete lack of respect for each other which is what often causes a marriage to deteriorate. This lack of respect can lead to abuse, physical, mental, verbal, and emotional abuse. My suggestion for the person who asked the question: don't listen to anyone on here, go to the scriptures, and the prophets advice.

If that is true, why are there so many divorces even in the Church.

And, who said anything about abuse? Where did you get that? I simply outlined what I see as the expectations that people have comming into a marriage, and why they get married. Of course you should treat your spouse with respect, but that doesn't mean that you both have to have the same roles or expectations. As a general rule, men want to be taken care of sexually, and women want to be taken care of "walet-ly". Both have to understand that. If you don't give a man the sex he wants (that includes keeping yourself reasonably presentable) he's going to stray, at least mentally. If you don't give a woman a decent standard of living, she's going to hit the trail, if she can manage to take you for enough.

I think you are stretching things a bit (maybe not as much as DisRuptive1, but still stretching things.)

I think women are only interested in taking you to the cleaners if she is poorly treated in lots of ways. Or horribly treated in only one or two ways. Many women want nothing more than to be "out". They don't even want the money because that constantly reminds them of the absolute horrid conditions they lived under for so long. Believe me, I speak from experience.

Some men just think that anything a woman gets is too much. Often a man encourages the woman to not work, to be an in-the-home worker, and when they mistreat the woman and the woman wants out, and enough money for support (since they no longer have marketable skills), they cry the blues. But they are the ones that created that situation.

You haven't stated one single thing that you disagreed with me about.

All you refered to where the evils of ABUSE. Where did I advocate ANY abuse? I abhor abuse--there is no place for it in any relationship, and if it occurs, the partner should high tail it out of there yesterday?

Please address the things I said, state them specifically, and comment on them, not something I DIDN'T say.

Also, I'm not talking about what "SOME" men do--obviously there are SOME men who will do ANYTHING. Again, I don't advocate abuse, nor condone it.

Are you implying that to expect your wife to fulfill her role as a sexual partner to be an "abuse". Read again what PD had to say, he said it extremely well.

Cal, you made one gigantic sweeping stereotype of women that just doesn't hold water. I have never known any woman who married a man for his wallet. The point of my post was that the only time the wallet seems to be involved is when the woman is abused, and then, depending on the severity of the abuse, the wallet is of no use or of ultimate use. It would be helpful to speak to truths rather than stereotypes.

Jenda--first I'm not dealing with stereotypes, I'm dealing with what GENERALLY happens. Let me ask you, how often do you see a really classy HOT looking, young woman with a POOR guy? As a rule you don't. (of course there are exceptions). On the other hand, how often do you see really young hot chicks with ugly, but filty rich dudes---all the time.

Generally speaking, guys get as hot a chick as their walet can afford, and girls get as rich a guy as their looks will attract. That is the general truth--yes there are exceptions, but we're not talking about the exceptions, just the general reality.

Women hate to admit these truths. They say, "oh, I married him for his wonderful personality". Yeah, but if his wonderful personality hadn't included at least the potential for a wonderful bottomline it might have been a different story.

Now, fat ugly girls have to settle for what ever they can get, which may mean a nice, poor guy, with a great personality. Sorry for telling the truth ladies, but if you want to attract educated, successful guys, loose 70 lbs and learn to put on some makeup.

Jenda, the reason you haven't "heard" of any girls who marry for this reason is because they generally don't admit it out loud, especially to men. They are no fools. Just like men never admit that they mainly want great sex, first and what ever else comes second. Women want money first, and sex second.

Well, Cal, you must just hang out with the worst types of people because I have lived in many places and in all my life, I have only known one girl who I would call a gold-digger. Most of the people I know have married for love, and the size of the wallet played no factor. In fact, I have, more recently, heard of the opposite happening. Many men are looking for women to support them so they don't have to go out and get a job. I have heard men say this. "Man, why didn't you marry someone who could keep you?" It goes both ways.

Are there gold-diggers out there? Yes. Are they the majority of society? NO!

Jenda--how old are you? What percent of all the people out there do you know? There are studies out there that back up what I am saying. Guys who make a lot of money can hold out for the best looking women, and generally do. What you know about are some of the exceptions.

[Cal]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jan 28 2005, 01:00 AM

How much does the guy in the picture make?

Here's a good reason why divorces happen:

Before marriage:After marriage:

Oh and btw, I speak from the experience of a man who has been married and divorced 4 times. So me and Cal should be able to cover all the bases, unsuccessful marriages and a successful marriage.

But we haven't seen her face either.

Let me also get clear on this subject. I'm not saying that men should only marry for superficial reasons (looks), but that is what attracts men in the first place, and guys who are better off tend to attract the better looking girls---it isn't necessarily what an ideal society needs, it's just how the real world is--it's not utopia out there.

[Cal]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 28 2005, 02:52 AM

Gosh! disruptive and cal...you both sound soo sexist...I really can't believe the things you are posting.

As others like Curvette have stated, yes it is important for both partners to try to keep themselves healthy and in shape...this is not always possible due to illness, is that a valid reason for the husband to seek satisfaction from a love affair too?

Disruptive and Cal appear to be living in somewhere like Hollywood judging by the examples of reasons why men and women marry each other...again as other posters have stated, there will always be those shallow enough to marry just for good looks and money...celebrities most likely!! Are these the sort of people you would like to consider yourself to be? No wonder you have been divorced!

May I say that I married my partner after being with him for 6 years. I met him when I was 17 and he was 19. I knew, when I met him, that he was unemployed...we both were, yes I actively encouraged him to get a job and sought one myself, but I didn't expect him to get a 'high flying' job that could keep me and see me jetting off in some luxurious lifestyle! We were together for 17 years altogther...our sex life was very healthy until he suggested sexual practises that I found disgusting...(do you really want me to go into detail? I am not just talking different positions in bed here...lol), and he also wanted us to 'swing', wife swap or whatever term you wish to use...I was not happy to go along with this in a 'normal' marriage, and would hope that you guys on here would see that as a good enough reason to lose interest in having sex with him frequently anymore...I still did have sex with him whenever I could stomach it, but felt more and more depressed at his complete disrespect for me and our marriage vows. He didn't help out very much around the house or with our 2 young children either, he was very selfish, spending the majority of his money on 'toys' for himself rather than us pooling our resources and treating the family to days out and such. Do you think I had good enough grounds for a divorce? By the way, I later found out that he was having affairs even before we were married, it was just in his nature...and no, I'm not a glamour model or anything, but I was considered to be good looking, some of his friends even acknowledged this, but I resisted their charms! wish I hadn't done now...

I hope this sort of answers some of your questions Cal, about what it was I disagreed with in points 5 and 6 of your original post. I don't think either partner should be demanding of the other, they should talk about things they disagree upon in a reasonable manner. Neither partner should denigrate the other and yes, respect is the most important feature of a marriage....tolerance of certain imperfections too, as long as the partner being tolerated doesn't take advantage of this and take it to mean that it can excuse all sorts of bad behaviour.

Puska---first where do you live? Have you ever lived in the united states? If not, what do you know about how americans live, really---TV?

Second, I'm surprised you would make a retarded remark like "no wonder you are divorced"----The reason I got divorced from my first wife was because I didn't understand the very things I have told you. When she left she told me that the reason she was leaving was because when we got married, she thought she was marrying a doctor---I was in Pre-Med at the time. I decided to forgo medical school because I had two kids by the time I had graduated from college and didn't want to miss them growing up. So I decided to teach High School Biology and Chemistry. I've never regretted that decision.

I have no negative feelings towards women---I admire any woman that is willing to pull their weight in a marriage and who understands the needs of men. The problem is most women don't, any more than men understand women's needs. And that is why divorce is 50% or more.

[Cal]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 28 2005, 02:52 AM

Gosh! disruptive and cal...you both sound soo sexist...I really can't believe the things you are posting.

As others like Curvette have stated, yes it is important for both partners to try to keep themselves healthy and in shape...this is not always possible due to illness, is that a valid reason for the husband to seek satisfaction from a love affair too?

Disruptive and Cal appear to be living in somewhere like Hollywood judging by the examples of reasons why men and women marry each other...again as other posters have stated, there will always be those shallow enough to marry just for good looks and money...celebrities most likely!! Are these the sort of people you would like to consider yourself to be? No wonder you have been divorced!

May I say that I married my partner after being with him for 6 years. I met him when I was 17 and he was 19. I knew, when I met him, that he was unemployed...we both were, yes I actively encouraged him to get a job and sought one myself, but I didn't expect him to get a 'high flying' job that could keep me and see me jetting off in some luxurious lifestyle! We were together for 17 years altogther...our sex life was very healthy until he suggested sexual practises that I found disgusting...(do you really want me to go into detail? I am not just talking different positions in bed here...lol), and he also wanted us to 'swing', wife swap or whatever term you wish to use...I was not happy to go along with this in a 'normal' marriage, and would hope that you guys on here would see that as a good enough reason to lose interest in having sex with him frequently anymore...I still did have sex with him whenever I could stomach it, but felt more and more depressed at his complete disrespect for me and our marriage vows. He didn't help out very much around the house or with our 2 young children either, he was very selfish, spending the majority of his money on 'toys' for himself rather than us pooling our resources and treating the family to days out and such. Do you think I had good enough grounds for a divorce? By the way, I later found out that he was having affairs even before we were married, it was just in his nature...and no, I'm not a glamour model or anything, but I was considered to be good looking, some of his friends even acknowledged this, but I resisted their charms! wish I hadn't done now...

I hope this sort of answers some of your questions Cal, about what it was I disagreed with in points 5 and 6 of your original post. I don't think either partner should be demanding of the other, they should talk about things they disagree upon in a reasonable manner. Neither partner should denigrate the other and yes, respect is the most important feature of a marriage....tolerance of certain imperfections too, as long as the partner being tolerated doesn't take advantage of this and take it to mean that it can excuse all sorts of bad behaviour.

pushka---where in my postings have I ever advocated abusing the other person, or even infidelity or swapping wives? That's ridiculous. And when I say a woman should give her husband sex when he wants it, that doesn't mean that HE should mistreat her to get it. It is SHE that needs to consider the needs of her husband. Obviously, there are times when a woman is just not in the mood--but that shouldn't be all that often, otherwise, she's going to have problems, or at least is asking for problems.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 28 2005, 07:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 28 2005, 07:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Jan 28 2005, 03:52 AM

Gosh! disruptive and cal...you both sound soo sexist...I really can't believe the things you are posting.

As others like Curvette have stated, yes it is important for both partners to try to keep themselves healthy and in shape...this is not always possible due to illness, is that a valid reason for the husband to seek satisfaction from a love affair too?

Disruptive and Cal appear to be living in somewhere like Hollywood judging by the examples of reasons why men and women marry each other...again as other posters have stated, there will always be those shallow enough to marry just for good looks and money...celebrities most likely!!  Are these the sort of people you would like to consider yourself to be?  No wonder you have been divorced!

May I say that I married my partner after being with him for 6 years.  I met him when I was 17 and he was 19.  I knew, when I met him, that he was unemployed...we both were, yes I actively encouraged him to get a job and sought one myself, but I didn't expect him to get a 'high flying' job that could keep me and see me jetting off in some luxurious lifestyle!  We were together for 17 years altogther...our sex life was very healthy until he suggested sexual practises that I found disgusting...(do you really want me to go into detail?  I am not just talking different positions in bed here...lol), and he also wanted us to 'swing', wife swap or whatever term you wish to use...I was not happy to go along with this in a 'normal' marriage, and would hope that you guys on here would see that as a good enough reason to lose interest in having sex with him frequently anymore...I still did have sex with him whenever I could stomach it, but felt more and more depressed at his complete disrespect for me and our marriage vows.  He didn't help out very much around the house or with our 2 young children either, he was very selfish, spending the majority of his money on 'toys' for himself rather than us pooling our resources and treating the family to days out and such.  Do you think I had good enough grounds for a divorce?  By the way, I later found out that he was having affairs even before we were married, it was just in his nature...and no, I'm not a glamour model or anything, but I was considered to be good looking, some of his friends even acknowledged this, but I resisted their charms! wish I hadn't done now...

I hope this sort of answers some of your questions Cal, about what it was I disagreed with in points 5 and 6 of your original post.  I don't think either partner should be demanding of the other, they should talk about things they disagree upon in a reasonable manner.  Neither partner should denigrate the other and yes, respect is the most important feature of a marriage....tolerance of certain imperfections too, as long as the partner being tolerated doesn't take advantage of this and take it to mean that it can excuse all sorts of bad behaviour.

Great post Pushka. I am happy to see you posting more.

I agree that some men were just born shallow, or maybe this is learned behavior? Either way it turns into the selfishness I mentioned earlier in this thread.

It is very sad to me that many men feel that they need a trophy wife to aid in their self esteem.

When a couple marries they don't have any idea what their life will bring them.

1. Maybe they will get a few lucky breaks and make a lot of money.

2. Maybe they will have lots of hardships early on in life and never seem to get into the fast track where money is plentiful.

In example number 1, if the woman becomes the major money maker should she kick her less attractive husband to the curb because there is another man who is better looking or could further her career? I have not heard of this happening before.

In example number 2, if a woman married a less attractive man because she felt that he would get her the finer things in life, but failed, should she leave him? well maybe...j/k.

I agree with Jenda, women don't marry men because of money or the potential of money, they marry because of love. I married my husband because I fell in love with him my senior year in high school, he was the president of our seminary class. He has a great personality and he is very kind to others. I didn't realize it at the time, but those are still the traits he carries with him and have made him successful in his career. When I married my husband he had just returned from his mission and the first job that he got was one that paid less then mine but I didn't care. As we began to have children I learned that my husband wanted to be the one to support the family, so I consented to stay home for a time. I encouraged my husband to grasp that next brass ring at every opportunity that arose. We shared in his successes and we still do as he has done well. Do I love him more because he has done well? No, I love him more because we have done this together and the trials that we have shared bond us, and strengthen our relationship. Our love has been a strong foundation to build upon and I remember those early years with a smile on my face.

I wonder if the person who started this thread is even still around, and if this is what they had in mind.

Straw--you are a master of the strawman argument...imputing things to people that they have not said, and then arguing against that.

Where have I advocated kicking your spouse to the curb because they quit making money? What I did say was, if a woman starts nagging you or makes it clear she is not interested in sex BEFORE you get married, that is when you kick her to the curb. Try to read more carefully before you respond.

Nevertheless, the reason you have no heard of women kicking a less attractive spouse to the curb is that generally speaking women don't marry for looks, they marry for money.

It is very sad to me that many men feel that they need a trophy wife to aid in their self esteem.

Why is it sad if a man that makes a lot of money can attract a really good looking woman? What is sad about that? It's just a matter of supply and demand. Unfortuately, it really ticks off the homely women, who can't attract a guy who makes a lot of money--and so they resent it and have to go make their own money. I'm not saying this is the way it SHOULD be, I'm just reporting what generally happens in the world.

Obviously there are lots of exceptions to this, but both men and women should be aware that this is the way a huge number of people think.

[Amillia]

I think you could discuss unsuccessful marriages better than successful ones! LOL

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 28 2005, 09:25 AM

The reason I got divorced from my first wife was because I didn't understand the very things I have told you. When she left she told me that the reason she was leaving was because when we got married, she thought she was marrying a doctor---I was in Pre-Med at the time. I decided to forgo medical school because I had two kids by the time I had graduated from college and didn't want to miss them growing up. So I decided to teach High School Biology and Chemistry. I've never regretted that decision.

I now see why you have the strong feeling you do about this topic.

I have just recently seen this occur to a young man in our ward, but never before. This girl came from a home where they had an abundance of "stuff". Her father is a doctor and she expected the fairy tale marriage right off the bat. Poor girl will search her entire life and never find real happiness. The reason is that happiness doesn't necessarily fall into the pot of gold. Happiness is something that isn't tangible; it is something you create from the inside out.

Cal, are you still teaching?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 28 2005, 08:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 28 2005, 08:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 28 2005, 09:25 AM

The reason I got divorced from my first wife was because I didn't understand the very things I have told you. When she left she told me that the reason she was leaving was because when we got married, she thought she was marrying a doctor---I was in Pre-Med at the time. I decided to forgo medical school because I had two kids by the time I had graduated from college and didn't want to miss them growing up. So I decided to teach High School Biology and Chemistry. I've never regretted that decision.

I now see why you have the strong feeling you do about this topic.

I have just recently seen this occur to a young man in our ward, but never before. This girl came from a home where they had an abundance of "stuff". Her father is a doctor and she expected the fairy tale marriage right off the bat. Poor girl will search her entire life and never find real happiness. The reason is that happiness doesn't necessarily fall into the pot of gold. Happiness is something that isn't tangible; it is something you create from the inside out.

Cal, are you still teaching?

Maybe she is expecting more than her looks can attract? She needs to get a life, and make her own money, and stop expecting a man to give her stuff she hasn't earned. The only way a woman can expect that is if she is young and a California 10.

I am still teaching Chemistry and also have a law practice on the side. When I retire from teaching I will do law full time.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 28 2005, 09:46 AM

Straw--you are a master of the strawman argument...imputing things to people that they have not said, and then arguing against that.

Where have I advocated kicking your spouse to the curb because they quit making money? What I did say was, if a woman starts nagging you or makes it clear she is not interested in sex BEFORE you get married, that is when you kick her to the curb. Try to read more carefully before you respond.

Nevertheless, the reason you have no heard of women kicking a less attractive spouse to the curb is that generally speaking women don't marry for looks, they marry for money.

It is very sad to me that many men feel that they need a trophy wife to aid in their self esteem.

Why is it sad if a man that makes a lot of money can attract a really good looking woman? What is sad about that? It's just a matter of supply and demand. Unfortuately, it really ticks off the homely women, who can't attract a guy who makes a lot of money--and so they resent it and have to go make their own money. I'm not saying this is the way it SHOULD be, I'm just reporting what generally happens in the world.

Obviously there are lots of exceptions to this, but both men and women should be aware that this is the way a huge number of people think.

Cal,

Thanks for the compliment.

Really, my point was to show your argument reversed...from the point of a shallow and arrogant woman.

Cal, you did indicate that if a woman lack in areas of looks and performance AFTER a marriage she would "have problems". Now do you understand? The scenario just doesn't look as good to you when it is reversed, you couldn't even recognize it.

MOST women DON'T many for money as I indicated in my own personal experience. Even if my husband had not become successful I would have stayed with him because he is still as wonderful as the day I feel in love with him. Just so that it is clear women like men, are first attracted to men because they posses a certain charisma, and if he treats her right, she will follow him just about anywhere.

Where do you think the phrase of "Trophy Wife" came from? A trophy is something that it usually won through a competition. A trophy is something you show to your friends a say, "Look what I won" If a man marries an average looking woman does that mean that he is only average? I think that most couples are equally matched in the looks department. It may be that the better looking men seem to be more successful and that does seem to play a role in our society. Many times people will be hired on their looks.

Society has placed a lot of standards on us that we have no control over. Models have set an unreasonable standard for women. If you look at art from long ago you will see nearly naked voluptuous women and that is what was considered beauty. Why do women have to be a size 2 to be considered thin, I think that a more reasonable size would be an 8-10, with the average being about a 14. Where are the standards for men?

Of course these are just my opinions; just as you have yours based on your own life experiences. I am happy that you have been able to find happiness within your present marriage.

BTW, the caps are used for emphasis, not shouting.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 28 2005, 08:32 AM

pushka---where in my postings have I ever advocated abusing the other person,

I think it was probably the comment "kick her to the curb". Obviously you are speaking sybolically, and not literally. Pushka: In American English it means, "Dump" her, push her aside, not literally kick her.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 28 2005, 10:05 AM

The only way a woman can expect that is if she is young and a California 10.

This is the part that drives me crazy.

How long will she remain young, and still be a California 10? What happens when her beauty fades?

(I guess a California 10 is somehow different then a Utah 10?)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 26 2005, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 26 2005, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Becki@Jan 26 2005, 03:15 PM

Hiya,

I'm doing a talk on Divorce and wondered if I could get some opinions...

becki xxx :)

The only way to avoid it completely is not get married. Want any other pearls of wisdom. Short of that, things that lessen the likelihood........

1) Don't get married young (before 25 at least)--the worse advice I got from any LDS church leader was to hurry up and get married right after your mission. Church leaders REALLY need to STOP telling return missionaries to get married before they are through with their educations and get a career.

2) So, don't get married until you have your education (at least BA)--both men and women---and have been working at a career for a few years---financial trouble is the main cause of divorce.

3) Postponing marriage also allows you to get to know yourself and have experience with lots of personality types so you know what you want, and don't feel deprived of a fun singlehood.

4) Don't have kids for at least 5 years after you are married. Kids often ruin romance.

5) Women--give your husband sex whenever he wants it, and don't turn into a fat slob. Give him his way most the time, and he will reward you by actually letting you make most the decisions---NEVER, and I mean NEVER let him think that you expect to be in charge--and NEVER whine. Men HATE that---and if he is any kind of man, he will kick you to the curb the first time you do it. Don't pretend to be one way before marriage, and then change into something else after you snagg him--he will resent you for it. Expect that the guy is going to be an inconsiderate slob some of the time--accept it. If you can't don't marry him.

6) Men---make a lot of money, nothing else keeps women has happy as that. And be kind and polite to her, but don't lose your manly, independent edge. (In otherwords, don't let her cut your ________s off--let her know right off the top who is in charge--and stay in charge. If she starts nagging you while you are still dating, kick her to the curb quick. If she starts doing it after you are married---give her the ultimatum "knock it off, or I'm out of here".... and mean it.

Most important rule of all: Never try to change the person after you are married, accept the person COMPLETELY--short of actual abuse (which you should be able to notice BEFORE you get married--which is why you date them a LONG time before agreeing to marry)

This should get things rolling....

I actually agree with you Cal, 100%.

We shouldn't be telling people to get married and fill a nest they haven't even built yet. Even nature dictates preparation! And I agree women should give their men sex when ever they ask, but I also think a guy should not be so selfish as to ask when he knows his wife isn't in the mood or is tired from keeping his house clean and helping to bring home the bacon. And I think a guy should help with the housework and children when they come.

I think marriage has to be a partnership, not bipartisen(sp) like republicans and democrats who just try and put forth their own agenda and put down the other's.

I think marriages today are too much like politics and need to be totally revamped into something that works and benefits.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 28 2005, 09:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 28 2005, 09:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 28 2005, 10:05 AM

The only way a woman can expect that is if she is young and a California 10.

This is the part that drives me crazy.

How long will she remain young, and still be a California 10? What happens when her beauty fades?

(I guess a California 10 is somehow different then a Utah 10?)

A "California 10" is kind of like "6-foot Hawaiian" in surfing. (Hawaiian surfers use some arcane measurement of the back slope of a wave to state its height, so when a twelve-foot wall of water is about to land on your head, they say it's about a four-foot wave.)

California Tenhood is indexed by age group. You can still be a California 10 at age sixty, because you're measured against other sixty-year-olds.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 28 2005, 09:58 AM

How long will she remain young, and still be a California 10? What happens when her beauty fades?

You're joking, right? California 10's beauty doesn't fade. It's just botoxed, nipped, tucked, waxed, peeled, and trained. Have you seen 50-something Goldie or Cher lately?

[DisRuptive1]

The scale is just a rating based on your looks. Carmen Electra would be a 10. Natasha Henstridge would probably be a 7. Rich men get 10's. Poor men get 4's and 5's. Women get lower ratings as they age, so they should cash in their chips before they drop a rank.

Another reason divorces happen is sexual incompatability. As we've seen, the woman is expected to "put out" every once in awhile. Certainly she is allowed some amount of leverage and is allowed to have headaches sometimes. But when a guy wants it 3 times a day and the woman is only willing to give it up once a month, you've got a compatability problem. This isn't actually a cause of divorce. Rather, a man's sexual frustrations will seep into every part of the marrage and it will slowly degrade and destroy itself. Most men can't hold out, so they go somewhere else, if just for one night. The good ones at least just go to a strip club or something.

But couples need to be sexually compatable to make a marriage work. At least if it's average it won't cause a problem to the marriage. If it's good it might even help both partners suffer through some of the other problems of their spouse if they know that they can expect a good time in bed.

But my point is, that if you're really serious about making a marriage work, don't wait until your wedding night to find out if you're sexually compatable. Certainly this is against what the church says, but I'm sure Heavenly Father would want us the marry the best person for us and stay with them rather than break our promises to each other because of a problem that both partners saw in a marriage that could have been taken care of before the marriage papers were signed.

[DisRuptive1]

Oh some more stuff about the rating system. The rating, when it's talked about, is based off of what the general population looks like. A Los Angeles 10 is a lot better looking than a Seattle 10. Seattle has a lot of porky, unattractive moms so when you find a woman and compare her all the unnattractive women, you'll see it's not hard to be a high ranking Seattle woman. But in LA, there are scores of beautiful women. Women from around the United States who might have been the most beautiful girl in their town comes to LA to star in movies. But all the other girls from around the US do this too so you got a huge influx of attractive women. An LA 10 is a rediculously gorgeous woman. Even Jennifer Love Hewitt is a 9.