Divorce...

[Jenda]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Feb 9 2005, 11:15 AM

Is it only me that has noticed that one one side of the debate we have women telling men how wrong, how childish and self centered they are. And on the other side we have the men telling the women how wrong they are and how it is the women's fault for being so needy / sexually repressed / emotionally unstable.

Top stuff.

Perhaps their is truth in Cal's words, perhaps there is truth in the females words, but as long as one side continues to dismiss the views of the other then what hope is there?

I realize that men are from Mars and women are from Venus. That we have different kinds of needs that need taken care of. But when one is constantly giving in to the needs of the other, the relationship becomes one-sided. Both need to realize and meet each other's needs, but how do you stimulate the uninterested party?

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 10:31 AM

I have to say that that is a bunch of horse doo-doo. I keep my man sexually happy, and his only thoughts are on himself and his daughter.

Although your tale sounds bad we only have one side of the story.

How do you know you are satisfying your husband sexually? You don't need to post details but I wonder if what you think to be the case is really the opinion of the other partner?

I know my wifes idea of satisfying sex is often different to my idea of satisfying sex and it does bring tension in sometimes. Perhaps you have different views on that matter too but are not aware of the problem. after all, men are not renowned for talking about the problems but bury them inside and withdraw from the person who they perceive as causing the problem. Your husband sounds like he has withdrawn to either try to solve in his mind his problem with you, or he has withdrawn because he has given up trying to solve his problem with you.

Perhaps he has tried to talk to you about it in the past but his male skills of directness in communication have not been met with much sympathy from his female partner. Only you can tel if he has tried to communicate and you have not managed to notice. Perhaps you need to try and talk about the subject with your husband. It's really dificult to talk about, particularly if one partner gets defensive very quickly when the other questions them about such feelings.

Whatever you do it sounds clearly like your husband is NOT happy wth you and he has done the typical male thing of withdrawal. The onus is probably on you to be able to find out what the issue he has with you and to do it in a matter that does not dismiss his male point of view (like you have done to the males on this forum). I suspect he has tried to talk to you about it before but has been dismissed as a bad male for even thinking such a thing and put in his place by you telling him things will only get better if he bucks up his ideas and fits in with what you want from a husband.

A surefire way to get a husband to withdraw from communication and to go into his hole.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Amillia+Feb 9 2005, 10:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Feb 9 2005, 10:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Feb 9 2005, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Feb 8 2005, 10:38 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Feb 8 2005, 06:11 AM

I agree, Amillia.  Well said.

Cal, you have absolutely no idea how wrong you are on all your assumptions about women.  I don't know what kind of household you grew up in, or what your current one is like, or if you are just reading all these wacky studies (done by men who don't have the foggiest idea what motivates and inspires women, either), but you really need to find some real women and talk to them instead of just making assumptions.

Actually I'm not surprised that all you women are in such denial. I guess it is not a picture you want to face up to.

Bottomline: Keep a man happy sexually, and keep yourself up physically and you will have a lot less problems with him.

I have to say that that is a bunch of horse doo-doo. I keep my man sexually happy, and his only thoughts are on himself and his daughter. I am treated like a slave in this house. Even down to the stupid stuff.

If he does laundry, he will bring up his stuff and our daughter's stuff and put them away, and leave mine in the basement. (I don't care about the putting away part.)

If he sets the table, or pours a drink for dinner, he will set two places or pour two drinks (as if I didn't exist.) We often have to fight for even being noticed because men are incapable of thinking beyond themselves.

Oh Jenda, that is awful!

Why do you put up with that crap? What a mixed message he is sending to your daughter! I think that it would be worth the fight to get him to stop. Your daughter might grow up thinking that the way he treats you is an acceptable way to be treated as a wife.

I totally agree with Strawberry! Don't allow that crap! We teach people how to treat us by what we allow them to do.

There are certain behaviors that he displays that are meant to teach me a lesson or put me in my place. He does not like me being on the computer, posting on boards or chatting, etc. Unfortunately, he is not home a lot as his job takes him out of town 3 to 4 nights a week. I am left home with our 7 year old daughter who is in school. I do not work, so besides taking care of her and the house, I am alone and I use the computer to occupy myself. I have built up some really good friendships that started from posting on discussion boards. He hates this! And so he punishes me. When he is home, I reduce the time I spend on the computer and try to find things we can do as a couple or a family, but even that is not good enough. He wants me off the computer for good, but I think that is unfair and controlling.

He, or we, needs to go to a counsellor to see the inappropriateness of this behavior, but he has no interest. His father treated his mother the same way (and still does). When we got married, he said that he hated the way his father treated his mother, and said if he started doing the same thing, to let him know and he would stop it. Do you think that worked? No, he just said, What do you know about how my father treats my mother?! I just responded that I have eyes and ears, and that it wasn't hard to figure out. But that was the end of him saying to tell him if he did the same thing.

I realize that I caused part of this problem because when we got married and had our daughter, he wanted me to stop working to be a SAHM, so I did. Now, being a nurse, if I wanted to go back and get a job, since I have been out of work for over 7 years, I would have to do some serious schooling just to be marketable, and the funds are just not there for that right now. I could learn how to say "Would you like fries with that?", though. B) Giving up my career for him was the worst mistake I could have made.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 12:37 PM

But when one is constantly giving in to the needs of the other, the relationship becomes one-sided. Both need to realize and meet each other's needs, but how do you stimulate the uninterested party?

I can't help you. I don't know enough about your situation. I certainly don't know the view of your husband so I can't really comment with any degree of authority.

I suspect there is lot more going on in your relationship than you are comfortable posting on a web site, understandably. I suspect there has been many discussion between you and yur husband where he has felt dismissed by his wife.

I suspect the issue of sex has been discussed in your relationship and you have felt he has too many needs that are unreasonable for you to fulfill. Again I wouldn't expect you to post all that information but without knowing you or your husband I cannot suggest ways to stimulate the uninterested party.

I can tell you one thing though. A male would happily walk over hot coals for a woman he loved, he would give his own life for the woman he loved, he would do anything. If he truely felt he loved you and he truely felt you loved him then he would do anything for you. Is the problem he doesn't love you or is the problem you don't love him unconditionally and he knows it?

You might not think that is fair but it doesn't take much for a fragile male ego to be bruised and to feel unloved by his wife. We are simple creatures and it doesn't take much to make us happy, but it also doesn't take much to make us feel unloved in a relationship.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 12:50 PM

He, or we, needs to go to a counsellor to see the inappropriateness of this behavior,

I realize that I caused part of this problem

There you go. It's his fault. You want to go to see a counsellor to make him change.

It will not happen.

You then admit that you carry some of the blame but follow it up by really saying that it's his fault for you carrying some of the blame.

I'm seeing some classic signs of couples that are talked about in some of the relationship books Ive read.

Can I give you a tip, and this is serious. Read these 3 books by Dr. Laura.

"10 stupid things than men do to mess up their lives"

"10 stupid things that women do to mess up their lives"

"The proper care and feeding of husbands"

The books are very interesting and they have a lot of common sense points. It can be informative when reading them to spot your own flaws as well as those of your partner as you read through them. The opening chapter in each of the 10 stupid books were particularly intersting as they seemed pretty accurate on so many fronts.

I suggest you read them and take a look at yourself. It will not make your marriage magically better but it will give you some information that I can tell you do not currently have. Only once you begin to understand each other better can you hope to resolve your issues.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Feb 9 2005, 11:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Feb 9 2005, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 12:37 PM

But when one is constantly giving in to the needs of the other, the relationship becomes one-sided.  Both need to realize and meet each other's needs, but how do you stimulate the uninterested party?

I can't help you. I don't know enough about your situation. I certainly don't know the view of your husband so I can't really comment with any degree of authority.

I suspect there is lot more going on in your relationship than you are comfortable posting on a web site, understandably. I suspect there has been many discussion between you and yur husband where he has felt dismissed by his wife.

I suspect the issue of sex has been discussed in your relationship and you have felt he has too many needs that are unreasonable for you to fulfill. Again I wouldn't expect you to post all that information but without knowing you or your husband I cannot suggest ways to stimulate the uninterested party.

I can tell you one thing though. A male would happily walk over hot coals for a woman he loved, he would give his own life for the woman he loved, he would do anything. If he truely felt he loved you and he truely felt you loved him then he would do anything for you. Is the problem he doesn't love you or is the problem you don't love him unconditionally and he knows it?

You might not think that is fair but it doesn't take much for a fragile male ego to be bruised and to feel unloved by his wife. We are simple creatures and it doesn't take much to make us happy, but it also doesn't take much to make us feel unloved in a relationship.

yaanufs, believe me, sex is not a problem in our marriage. When nothing else is going right, we can always bank on the sex. B)

He may feel dismissed by me, but it is only because he has long since dismissed me.

My thought is that he has not learned how to multiply his love. He loved me more than I can say when we got married, and as soon as our daughter was born, I felt he had to choose who he was going to love, and so he chose her. Instead of multiplying the love, he just transferred it.

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 01:00 PM

He may feel dismissed by me, but it is only because he has long since dismissed me.

My thought is that he has not learned how to multiply his love. He loved me more than I can say when we got married, and as soon as our daughter was born, I felt he had to choose who he was going to love, and so he chose her. Instead of multiplying the love, he just transferred it.

yaanufs, believe me, sex is not a problem in our marriage.  When nothing else is going right, we can always bank on the sex.  B)

What does your husband think? Is it as great as you make it out to be? Perhaps that is part of the problem, you think it is great for you but you are so busy thinking how great it is that you fail to notice what he is feeling.

This story about only being able to love one person so he chose your daughter is just rubbish. A man can easily love his whole family if he is happy with his wife. If he is not happy he will withdraw and divert his attention. Exactly as you are witnessing.

You are very quick to point out his mistakes, and even when you have been gracious enough to mention you might have made a mistake, you turn it around to really put the blame on him, so it's still really his fault you made the mistake.

there is clearly a lot more going on behind the scenes of your relationship. The more little snippets you reveal the more I can see his side of things and the more I suspect you are not as innocent and hurt as you make out to be. It's easy to put one side of the story when you are the only one posting. I suspect if your husband were posting we would get a completely different picture of how your relationshp has developed over the years. I'm sure he would have a whole multitude of stories to tell us concerning your behaviour towards him that has turned him away from his wife.

The issue is never one sided and it bothers me to see you try and paint it this way. I don't expect you to admit to your mistakes on an anonymous internet forum but at some point you may need to confront your mistakes by yourself. the books I've suggested are a good way to start to see yourself in a more enlightened way.

[yaanufs]

If you want to find out the truth PM his mobile phone number and his name and I'll call him and ask him. Man to man he'll tell me the truth about how he feels about you and why he feels rejected by you. I'm pretty sure after he has gotten over the shock and he realises I am on his side he'll open up.

Then I'll let you know what he is thinking.

It'll save you a few hundred dollars with a counsellor

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 9 2005, 12:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 9 2005, 12:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Feb 9 2005, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Feb 9 2005, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Feb 8 2005, 10:38 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Feb 8 2005, 06:11 AM

I agree, Amillia.  Well said.

Cal, you have absolutely no idea how wrong you are on all your assumptions about women.  I don't know what kind of household you grew up in, or what your current one is like, or if you are just reading all these wacky studies (done by men who don't have the foggiest idea what motivates and inspires women, either), but you really need to find some real women and talk to them instead of just making assumptions.

Actually I'm not surprised that all you women are in such denial. I guess it is not a picture you want to face up to.

Bottomline: Keep a man happy sexually, and keep yourself up physically and you will have a lot less problems with him.

I have to say that that is a bunch of horse doo-doo. I keep my man sexually happy, and his only thoughts are on himself and his daughter. I am treated like a slave in this house. Even down to the stupid stuff.

If he does laundry, he will bring up his stuff and our daughter's stuff and put them away, and leave mine in the basement. (I don't care about the putting away part.)

If he sets the table, or pours a drink for dinner, he will set two places or pour two drinks (as if I didn't exist.) We often have to fight for even being noticed because men are incapable of thinking beyond themselves.

Oh Jenda, that is awful!

Why do you put up with that crap? What a mixed message he is sending to your daughter! I think that it would be worth the fight to get him to stop. Your daughter might grow up thinking that the way he treats you is an acceptable way to be treated as a wife.

I totally agree with Strawberry! Don't allow that crap! We teach people how to treat us by what we allow them to do.

There are certain behaviors that he displays that are meant to teach me a lesson or put me in my place. He does not like me being on the computer, posting on boards or chatting, etc. Unfortunately, he is not home a lot as his job takes him out of town 3 to 4 nights a week. I am left home with our 7 year old daughter who is in school. I do not work, so besides taking care of her and the house, I am alone and I use the computer to occupy myself. I have built up some really good friendships that started from posting on discussion boards. He hates this! And so he punishes me. When he is home, I reduce the time I spend on the computer and try to find things we can do as a couple or a family, but even that is not good enough. He wants me off the computer for good, but I think that is unfair and controlling.

He, or we, needs to go to a counsellor to see the inappropriateness of this behavior, but he has no interest. His father treated his mother the same way (and still does). When we got married, he said that he hated the way his father treated his mother, and said if he started doing the same thing, to let him know and he would stop it. Do you think that worked? No, he just said, What do you know about how my father treats my mother?! I just responded that I have eyes and ears, and that it wasn't hard to figure out. But that was the end of him saying to tell him if he did the same thing.

I realize that I caused part of this problem because when we got married and had our daughter, he wanted me to stop working to be a SAHM, so I did. Now, being a nurse, if I wanted to go back and get a job, since I have been out of work for over 7 years, I would have to do some serious schooling just to be marketable, and the funds are just not there for that right now. I could learn how to say "Would you like fries with that?", though. B) Giving up my career for him was the worst mistake I could have made.

OH MY!

Your dear hubby is in real need of a reality check.

I also did as my hubby wanted...became a SAHM. Looking back, I don't regret it. What I do regret, is after all of my children were in school not going to work for the school as an art specialist. I was pretty much offered the job and it would have worked great with my children¡Çs schedules etc. My DH said Why do you want to be tied down to a job when you don't have to. Well I caved, and gave in again to his wishes. That is when I became lost in my identity and I grew very bored. I lost my creativity and I became sick.

About the internet and your friends...Of course he hates it. When you are on the computer he has NO CONTROL OF YOU. How does he punish you for being on the computer? Is that the reason why he ignores you?

About schooling for you...Have you checked with insurance companies? I have been told that the need for nurses is so great that many times they pay for your schooling. You just need some brushing up right? I would think that you would be a welcomed addition to any nursing program.

It seems to me that your hubby learned to control his wife from watching his father. I had to fight hard to get out of my DH's control and it took sometime to do it. Now I don't do anything I don't want to do and he knows it. If he ever tries one of his controlling schemes I nip it in the bud. He used to bring me to tears, now I just see red and next to his blue so together we form a lovely shade of purple. :)

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Feb 9 2005, 01:36 PM

About schooling for you...Have you checked with insurance companies? I have been told that the need for nurses is so great that many times they pay for your schooling. You just need some brushing up right? I would think that you would be a welcomed addition to any nursing program.

Unfortunately I find myself agreeing with a woman on this thread

The need for nurses in this country is chronic. It one of only two careers that the US government will make exception for when it comes to immigration. The need is so high that will allow any nurse to move into the country.

It should be very easy for you to get back into a career that is so desperate for staff. Good luck if you want to do it.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 9 2005, 12:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 9 2005, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--yaanufs@Feb 9 2005, 11:15 AM

Is it only me that has noticed that one one side of the debate we have women telling men how wrong, how childish and self centered they are.  And on the other side we have the men telling the women how wrong they are and how it is the women's fault for being so needy / sexually repressed / emotionally unstable.

Top stuff. 

Perhaps their is truth in Cal's words, perhaps there is truth in the females words, but as long as one side continues to dismiss the views of the other then what hope is there?

I realize that men are from Mars and women are from Venus. That we have different kinds of needs that need taken care of. But when one is constantly giving in to the needs of the other, the relationship becomes one-sided. Both need to realize and meet each other's needs, but how do you stimulate the uninterested party?

Totally withdraw and see what happens. If he withdraws more, rather than persues or complains, then you know there is somewhere else he is getting what he needs.

If, OTOH, he complains or persues you, you know he is interested and that is the time to talk about what is going on with you both. Tell him how you want the marriage to go, how you feel about things he is doing and ask him what he wants from the marriage and what he thinks can make it better.

Start with some kind of real verbal communications, rather than you going to the computer and he only setting places for himself and his daughter.

Also ask him what the word 'family' means to him. Does it mean father and daughter? Or does it mean mom, dad, and child? In that order!

[yaanufs]

Totally withdraw and see what happens.

It sounds like she has already done that and is reaping the rewards for it.

Hint: he sounds like he has already gone down that route and has decided not to bother chasing anymore. I suspect you will find he will not chase again.

and ask him what he wants from the marriage and what he thinks can make it better.

DANGER, DANGER. This is a loaded question and will make a man think very carefully before answering. This type of question will not be answered in a meaningful way considering the current relationship problems you are facing.

Also ask him what the word 'family' means to him. Does it mean father and daughter? Or does it mean mom, dad, and child?

SUPER-DUPER DANGER ALERT. Do not ask this question. It is a sure fire way to get an anser that you don't want to hear and that your husband probably doesn't mean. I guarantee you that your husband will give a negative answer to this question. You are both so far down the route where you are playing controling games with each other that he will treat it as another one of your games.

You need to begin communication, ther eis no doubt of this, but these questions will not help a male to open up. They are a long way down the road before you can expect any sensible answer to them. As a male you need to trust me on this. You will make the situation worse by going in with guns a blazin' asking these types of questions.

[Jenda]

Sheesh. What is it with the men on the board. Are thy so insecure in their own marriages that they feel they have to ridicule others and call them liars, or something?

Yaanufs, I'm sorry I got into this debate with you. You obviously wouldn't know a truth if it slapped you in the face, your advice stinks, and you need to find a way to put some trust in your life.

Let me ask you a question, yaanufs. What do you consider a good sexual relationship? Do you measure it by quantity, or quality? If the quality is bad, does the quantity make up for it, and vice versa? I am just wondering why you feel that you need to judge others by your outlandish standards.

Oh, one more question. How old are you? You post as if you are in your early twenties.

[pushka]

My, my! the fur's really flying now!!! LOL.

Well, I am sorry that this thread has become so bitter!! It is a sad reflection on men and women that even debating relationships anonymously online they cannot seem to do it without being insulting or chauvinistic in some way.

I'm afraid I have found very little to agree with in Cal's posts, although I agree with lots of his other opinions on other threads...

Yaanufs, when I read your first post, I though, hey up! a man who's seeing both sides...at last...but unfortunately I was deceived, and you have just turned this whole conversation into a debate over whether or not Jenda is 'really' pleasing her hubby in the sack, and blaming everything on her...did you even bother to read the reasons why she spent so much time on the internet? Because she gets lonely when her husband is away from home? Did you bother to read about the times she and her husband discussed his ever becoming like his father? The type of behaviour towards his mother which he claimed to be ashamed of, insomuch as he didn't want to treat his wife the same way? And then he turned around and started treating his wife that way and refused to discuss the matter?

Jenda does admit that there are faults on both sides, no she doesn't go into full details, as you said, it wouldn't be appropriate...that doesn't mean that she is trying to be one-sided and deceive us all. I feel very sorry for you Jenda, I do hope that there is a way that you and your husband can discuss your current relationship...I didn't feel the questions Amillia suggested asking were inappropriate...Okay Yaanufs? If those questions were going to ring alarm bells and send her husband running in the other direction, what questions would you suggest Jenda asks him?

I read lots of books about relationships too...usually written in a comical yet very truthful style, and yes they can be helpful at taking a tongue in cheek look at yourself, as well as each other...it would be great to imagine Jenda and her husband sitting together with these books and having a laugh at them, though it doesn't sound as if they are that close at the moment to allow them to do so...if that is so, it is very sad...

Anyway, I'm sure you guys are gonna be very offended that I didn't think too much of your responses on this thread...I do agree with some of your points, however, just not the majority of them...

Ladies...without any bias!! LOL...I am proud of your posts, and of the advice you have given to the various people over their relationship problems...Let's hope that this thread has at least opened all of our eyes a little to ourselves and our partners and made us think about being considerate to each other...but not at the expense of our own self-esteem. :)

[Guest JRodan]

Originally posted by Becki@Jan 26 2005, 04:15 PM

Hiya,

I'm doing a talk on Divorce and wondered if I could get some opinions...

becki xxx :)

I tend to shy away from it myself. Doesn't seem like a fun thing to do.

[Jenda]

Well, now that I have aired all my dirty laundry in public, , let me say that, while this sounds bad, it sounds worse than it really is. There are lots of positive things that make up for the unpleasantness. True, I wish it was not present, but life would be no fun if it were all peaches and cream, right? B)

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 06:20 PM

Well, now that I have aired all my dirty laundry in public, , let me say that, while this sounds bad, it sounds worse than it really is. There are lots of positive things that make up for the unpleasantness. True, I wish it was not present, but life would be no fun if it were all peaches and cream, right? B)

Jenda, don't feel bad. I have done the same thing several times and I have also gotten some really good replies.

If there is one thing that bothers me it is people who profess to have the perfect everything. Unfortunately, that is so much what it is like where I live. People show up at all church functions with perfection oozing from their pours. That false persona builds up a barrier when it comes to getting to know someone. After all, who wants to make an effort to get to know Barbie and Ken, they are plastic.

[Amillia]

Ladies...without any bias!! LOL...I am proud of your posts, and of the advice you have given to the various people over their relationship problems...Let's hope that this thread has at least opened all of our eyes a little to ourselves and our partners and made us think about being considerate to each other...but not at the expense of our own self-esteem. 

[pushka]

Thank you Amillia :)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Feb 9 2005, 06:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Feb 9 2005, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 06:20 PM

Well, now that I have aired all my dirty laundry in public,    , let me say that, while this sounds bad, it sounds worse than it really is.  There are lots of positive things that make up for the unpleasantness.  True, I wish it was not present, but life would be no fun if it were all peaches and cream, right?  B)

Jenda, don't feel bad. I have done the same thing several times and I have also gotten some really good replies.

If there is one thing that bothers me it is people who profess to have the perfect everything. Unfortunately, that is so much what it is like where I live. People show up at all church functions with perfection oozing from their pours. That false persona builds up a barrier when it comes to getting to know someone. After all, who wants to make an effort to get to know Barbie and Ken, they are plastic.

That is true. Plus it takes years and years to get to a point of communicating that I have come to. You should just look at all the wrecks and carnage on the road that got us here. And we are never finished. It is an on going work in progress forever I suspect. That is why it is called eternal progression!

I will share some dirty laundry just so you won't stand alone Jenda. About 10 years ago my husband changed jobs and started working with some really gutter mouthed sleeze balls. All of a sudden when we had arguments, he would call me the B word. Yeah! Right in front of the kids!

It took a long time to work that one out.

[Jenda]

Thanks, Pushka and SF and Amillia. Your support and encouragement is very greatly appreciated.

You guys are the best. :) B)

[pushka]

Thank you too Jenda, for sharing your story and your wisdom with us all...good luck with your marriage!!

[Lindy]

I just started reading this thread, and my heart goes out to Jenda... it's hard to be treated as a second class person from someone who is supposed to love you.

yaanufs~ you had some real good posts, and I understood a lot of what you were saying and then you go and say this!

If you want to find out the truth PM his mobile phone number and his name and I'll call him and ask him.  Man to man he'll tell me the truth about how he feels about you and why he feels rejected by you.  I'm pretty sure after he has gotten over the shock and he realises I am on his side he'll open up.

Then I'll let you know what he is thinking.

It'll save you a few hundred dollars with a counsellor

Do you WANT to cause WWlll in her marriage? I'll tell you something yaanufs- when a friend of ours approached my hubby to ask him what the he** was going on, I got an answer: a one sided screamfest accusing me of trying to turn his friends against him, and to keep my nose out of his business. It took a lot for his friend not to punch him out, after he found what happened after the "man to man". All good intentions aside, I really don't think it would be a good idea for a total stranger to call him and ask about his marriage problems. I'm pretty sure that after he has gotten over the shock, he won't open up to you, and just take it all out on her. Disaster is what would happen. Jenda doesn't need that anguish.

Jenda~ you are a strong woman...I know you have gone thru a lot over the last couple of years....and I am sorry that you are being treated the way you are...just remember that you are worth more than anything to a lot of people, and I hope that when your husband comes to his senses, he will realize what a prize he has in you. If it helps any.....start a list of things you love about your husband, you still seem to see the good things in him...don't lose focus of them.

[Lindy]

Ohhh and Jenda.....I havent said it before...but I smile everytime I see your avitar...... keep it for awhile will you? :)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Feb 9 2005, 08:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Feb 9 2005, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 9 2005, 09:05 AM

Uh, no.

Sometimes, if men are playing games and not "falling all over their wives", it can cause doubt within their wives. Women believe it or not, do catch other men checking them out. What is especially reaffirming is when the husband catches the other guy checking out his wife. It's just too bad that men feel that they have to hold back to "keep control" of the relationship.

Oh women know who they are; they just want their husbands to know. There are not too many things more beautiful then a woman in love. They dress better, take care of themselves more, and they glow from the inside out.

You mention women don't know what makes them happy and to a point that is true. Women are constantly diving into new projects and most have a desire to continue to learn and grow and that the reason for change. The core of them man/woman relationship is the simple concept.  Just be real and forget the holding back of affection.

Yeah, right

Absolutely. The problem with you Cal, is that you are a manipulator and your wife doesn't want to be manipulated. Maybe your wife is a manipulator also.

Too bad. Because if you both were just straight forward and loving and giving, it wouldn't be so bad for you.

Dr. Phil once said something worth while. He said: One thing I do is make sure that when my wife walks into a room full of women, that she knows without a doubt she is the best treated women in the room. (Or something like that)

What women and men have to do, is make sure they are doing the best to make their spouses the best treated in the room. Forget the games, the manipulation, the control. Because all these do is destroy the potential happiness and fulfillment you can receive in a relationship.

I read a book once that said if you identify the game someone is playing while they are playing it, the can't play it any more because the whole purpose and success of the game is it's not being known. Once it is exposed, it just can't be played anymore.

Try identifying the games you and your wife are playing and get REAL!!!

What games? You sure do assume a lot. My wife and I understand eachother perfectly and I treat her just great. You just seem to think that because I understand how women are, that I must mistreat them. To the contrary.