My Testimony

[Cal]

Some of us make a point to bear testimonies, when all else fails in a discussion. I resist using this tactic, as it rarely lends anything to discussion. However....

Pushka asked me to bear my testimony to her....first I asked, my testimony of what? I have testimonies about a lot of things, some stronger than others. She proceeded undounted, (sp) so I relented and bore her my testimony. In a nut shell it is this:

I believe that the LDS Church is true enough to justify doing any good you can in its name, but not true enough to justify doing or thinking any evil, injustice or irrational thing in its name.

Is that good enough, or should I ask to be relieved of my church membership?

[Guest haicvuong]

God's Representative

235 Grard

San Francisco, California 94134

Hi, Faithful Saints,

Do you believe in Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior? If you do, that's awesome! Because you believe Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you must not attend church building(s) where pastor(s) and leader(s) of that church collects or collected tithes and offerings as like Tax collector collects 17cents per plastic and paper bags and any other taxes as well.

If you who ever believeth that giving money to the church is a blessing or you believeth that paying your money to God is a blessing, please read and see the truth!

Old testament

Malachi 3 verses 10-11.

Malachi 3 verse 4.

These scriptures that I show you to you it has nothing to do with offering and paying money.

New testament

Mathew 5 verses 24-30

Mathew 22 verse 17-21.

Jesus Christ preached this to His people in his days. He gave a parable of the talents and He told the Tax collector to give back the land, the property and farmers, workers and people of God to God, and he can keep collecting tax.

Back up scriptures about tithes (not paying by money).

GENESIS 28:22 NKJ

22 ". . . of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

LEVITICUS 27:32-33 NKJ

32 `And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

33 `He shall not inquire whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it; and if he exchanges it at all, then both it and the one exchanged for it shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.' "

2 CHRONICLES 31:4-5 NKJ

4 Moreover he commanded the people who dwelt in Jerusalem to contribute support for the priests and the Levites, that they might devote themselves to the Law of the Lord.

5 As soon as the commandment was circulated, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of grain and wine, oil and honey, and of all the produce of the field; and they brought in abundantly the tithe of everything.

So, invite your playing bands, songs worshippers, your kids and childrens, your friends, and your relatives to come to my house and make a church! Let's make God happy and rejoice in the Lord.

In Christ,

Hai Vuong

415 508 0935.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 29 2005, 12:38 PM

I believe that the LDS Church is true enough to justify doing any good you can in its name, but not true enough to justify doing or thinking any evil, injustice or irrational thing in its name.

I like that statement Cal and don't go giving up your membership! :)

[Setheus]

Again, WHERE DO I SIGN UP?!? :)

Brings loaded 1911 around to the front and stands at low ready"

[Cal]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jan 29 2005, 02:02 PM

Again, WHERE DO I SIGN UP?!? :)

Brings loaded 1911 around to the front and stands at low ready"

Say what?????????????????????

[Lindy]

Cal, there is nothing wrong with your testimony....some have stronger testimonies and some have weaker ones. We are who we are and believe what we will....

Oh, BTW.....I think Setheus is referring to some kind of pistol...... However I think that a loaded weapon should be left at home when there could be children involved

[Cal]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Jan 29 2005, 04:53 PM

Cal, there is nothing wrong with your testimony....some have stronger testimonies and some have weaker ones.  We are who we are and believe what we will.... 

Oh, BTW.....I think Setheus is referring to some kind of pistol......  However I think that a loaded weapon should be left at home when there could be children involved 

What would you describe as a "strong" vs. a "weak" testimony?

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 30 2005, 01:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 30 2005, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lindy9556@Jan 29 2005, 04:53 PM

Cal, there is nothing wrong with your testimony....some have stronger testimonies and some have weaker ones.   We are who we are and believe what we will....  

Oh, BTW.....I think Setheus is referring to some kind of pistol......  However I think that a loaded weapon should be left at home when there could be children involved 

What would you describe as a "strong" vs. a "weak" testimony?

well, let me think..... perhaps a testimony of a Prophet vs a testimony from someone like me. Best way I could describe it

Some believe everything....hook, line and sinker....and others believe only somethings that they can comprehend during stages of spiritual growth. Do I make any sense?

[pushka]

Thank you Cal...I'm sorry if I put you 'on the spot'...I think your testimony was very reasonable.

Lindy, I thought that your reply made good sense too...

Thank you both! :)

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 29 2005, 11:38 AM

Some of us make a point to bear testimonies, when all else fails in a discussion. I resist using this tactic, as it rarely lends anything to discussion. However....

Pushka asked me to bear my testimony to her....first I asked, my testimony of what? I have testimonies about a lot of things, some stronger than others. She proceeded undounted, (sp) so I relented and bore her my testimony. In a nut shell it is this:

I believe that the LDS Church is true enough to justify doing any good you can in its name, but not true enough to justify doing or thinking any evil, injustice or irrational thing in its name.

Is that good enough, or should I ask to be relieved of my church membership?

Cal: Sometimes I think we grind on each other on the forum but should we find ourselves as neighbors I am not sure we would have so much difficulty.

Since you like to think I am rather curious about your concern about being irrational. I have never met anyone that thought their religion "irrational" yet in almost all cases they thought most other religions to be somewhat irrational. At least they tend to think that anyone that does not draw their same conclusions must be irrational.

Some religious thinkers say that lack of tolerance is irrational but how can anyone tolerate what is not rational to them or vice versa? Having had teenagers I have been amazed at what was sometimes argued as rational. Usually I find those seeking rationality to be very self centered. But being self-centered is contrary to what most religions claims is necessary to become enlightened.

I think the arguments of what is rational or irrational are problematic especially for those that claim they are governed exclusively by rational thinking. Should they ever discover a irrational act they could no longer deal “rationally” with themselves.

But thank for sharing your testimony – it help me, in part, to understand your rational.

The Traveler

[huma17]

Originally posted by haicvuong@Jan 29 2005, 02:41 PM

If you who ever believeth that giving money to the church is a blessing or you believeth that paying your money to God is a blessing, please read and see the truth!

Now, Abraham paid his tithes, and he has received his throne. Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, but to give to the Lord what is the Lord's.

We are not, though, to pay money for forgiveness or salvation - that is a separate thing. Tithing is a commandment, and an act of faith and obedience.

Nobody is paying tithes to a 'building' 'church' or leader, but to the Lord. Nobody comes knocking on my door if I have not paid my tithing. I am still allowed to attend church, just not the Temple, because I am no longer living a Celestial Law, which requires full obedience to the Laws of the Lord.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by pushka@Jan 31 2005, 02:14 AM

Thank you Cal...I'm sorry if I put you 'on the spot'...I think your testimony was very reasonable.

Lindy, I thought that your reply made good sense too...

Thank you both! :)

Glad to have been of any help at all :)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Traveler+Feb 1 2005, 09:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Feb 1 2005, 09:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 29 2005, 11:38 AM

Some of us make a point to bear testimonies, when all else fails in a discussion. I resist using this tactic, as it rarely lends anything to discussion. However....

Pushka asked me to bear my testimony to her....first I asked, my testimony of what? I have testimonies about a lot of things, some stronger than others. She proceeded undounted, (sp) so I relented and bore her my testimony. In a nut shell it is this:

I believe that the LDS Church is true enough to justify doing any good you can in its name, but not true enough to justify doing or thinking any evil, injustice or irrational thing in its name.

Is that good enough, or should I ask to be relieved of my church membership?

Cal: Sometimes I think we grind on each other on the forum but should we find ourselves as neighbors I am not sure we would have so much difficulty.

Since you like to think I am rather curious about your concern about being irrational. I have never met anyone that thought their religion "irrational" yet in almost all cases they thought most other religions to be somewhat irrational. At least they tend to think that anyone that does not draw their same conclusions must be irrational.

Some religious thinkers say that lack of tolerance is irrational but how can anyone tolerate what is not rational to them or vice versa? Having had teenagers I have been amazed at what was sometimes argued as rational. Usually I find those seeking rationality to be very self centered. But being self-centered is contrary to what most religions claims is necessary to become enlightened.

I think the arguments of what is rational or irrational are problematic especially for those that claim they are governed exclusively by rational thinking. Should they ever discover a irrational act they could no longer deal “rationally” with themselves.

But thank for sharing your testimony – it help me, in part, to understand your rational.

The Traveler

Rationality has to be evalutated on a point by point basis. Somethings I find quite reasonable, other things not. If I can find more reasons why something isn't true than that it is, I'm incline to go with the weight of the evidence.

I'm not sure why you think that reserving judgment until there is evidence to support a proposition is "self centered". It is our JOB to be self centered when we are called upon do decide whether something is true or not. To reliquish your judgement and decision making to another is folly---one's testimony is by definition "self centered"--it is what YOU, as a person, think the truth is. Who else can decide that for you. In fact, it is nonsensical to think it could be otherwise. Even if you say, "well, I'll just follow the prophet", "or if JS said it is true, that's good enough for me". Those statements are simply a personal decision ( shall we say, self-centered) to surrender one's mind to the domination by another--it is tantamount to putting one's faith in the hand of flesh.

God gave us each a rational mind to make rational decisions---to violate that principal would be an affront to God, IMHO.

Perhaps I can put it another way: when it REALLY matters, trust your own independent judgement; when it doesn't go ahead and let someone else lead you, that's easier and takes a lot less work.

I don't mean to imply that you are not a rational person. I believe you are. But I also hear a lot of stuff that I know people wouldn't believe if they were relying on their own careful reasoning. But maybe some people can't figure it out for themselves and need someone to follow.

Thank you for your comments--they were well taken.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 1 2005, 08:43 PM

Rationality has to be evalutated on a point by point basis. Somethings I find quite reasonable, other things not. If I can find more reasons why something isn't true than that it is, I'm incline to go with the weight of the evidence.

I'm not sure why you think that reserving judgment until there is evidence to support a proposition is "self centered". It is our JOB to be self centered when we are called upon do decide whether something is true or not. To reliquish your judgement and decision making to another is folly---one's testimony is by definition "self centered"--it is what YOU, as a person, think the truth is. Who else can decide that for you. In fact, it is nonsensical to think it could be otherwise. Even if you say, "well, I'll just follow the prophet", "or if JS said it is true, that's good enough for me". Those statements are simply a personal decision ( shall we say, self-centered) to surrender one's mind to the domination by another--it is tantamount to putting one's faith in the hand of flesh.

God gave us each a rational mind to make rational decisions---to violate that principal would be an affront to God, IMHO.

Perhaps I can put it another way: when it REALLY matters, trust your own independent judgement; when it doesn't go ahead and let someone else lead you, that's easier and takes a lot less work.

I don't mean to imply that you are not a rational person. I believe you are. But I also hear a lot of stuff that I know people wouldn't believe if they were relying on their own careful reasoning. But maybe some people can't figure it out for themselves and need someone to follow.

Thank you for your comments--they were well taken.

I have learned that what appears as rational to me may not really be the case. Often when I am working with someone they will exclaim “I do not understand why it does not work.” My answer is always “You cannot be sure if something works (is rational) until you have tested it. Then you only know what you have tested will work (or is rational).

One of the most important test in the automation industry is what is called anomaly testing. This is when an algorithm is subjected to a hostile environment outside of defined operational parameters. Or in other words what happen when the system is not functioning correctly what happens to the controls. Or in your case - what happens when rational breaks down and does not function at a critical or important point. Does the system fail, does it make things worse, is it possible to recover?

For me a “rational” system is not necessarily bullet proof. It may fail but I want to know what happens when it fails. Is there a way to recover? Does attempting to keep everything else operational only make things worse? Or do you have to shut everything down and restart everything from scratch or just the problem area. For me just making something work is not rational enough. Sometimes rational to means a lot more that it does to others.

For spiritual things I like to do sanity checks or anomaly testing on my spiritual rational. I like to subject what I believe to be true to someone that disagrees with me. This does two things - It gives me insight to the character of my advisory and it demonstrates the strength of my spiritual rational. The problem is the anguish that I often cause for my test case. Sometime that pain is returned many fold.

The Traveler

[pushka]

This will appear to be a totally silly question to ask of you all...LDS members I mean, however it might clarify why I was so interested in the strength of Cal's testimony...I suppose I was asking about his belief in the fact of the Church being the Only True Church, the True Restored church.

My question is this...Is it necessary to believe all that Joseph Smith said happened to him...ie. visitations from God, angels etc. Finding the BofM and translating it, and further revelation?

Is it necessary to believe that the current prophets are receiving/have received current revelation....some of which has altered church doctrine? In order to follow the Church's general teachings which you find useful, good, and healthy...and ignore those which you disagree with...Is that possible? Would anybody say they could do that, or would they fear excommunication because obviously (to me anyway), in order to still believe that the LDS church is the True church, it would be necessary to believe all those things, and if I didn't I couldn't be a member of the church, but I could still accommodate some of the good things from the church into my lifestyle, and not belong to any particular religious denomination....

Thoughts please??? :)

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 3 2005, 09:32 AM

This will appear to be a totally silly question to ask of you all...LDS members I mean, however it might clarify why I was so interested in the strength of Cal's testimony...I suppose I was asking about his belief in the fact of the Church being the Only True Church, the True Restored church.

My question is this...Is it necessary to believe all that Joseph Smith said happened to him...ie. visitations from God, angels etc. Finding the BofM and translating it, and further revelation?

Is it necessary to believe that the current prophets are receiving/have received current revelation....some of which has altered church doctrine? In order to follow the Church's general teachings which you find useful, good, and healthy...and ignore those which you disagree with...Is that possible? Would anybody say they could do that, or would they fear excommunication because obviously (to me anyway), in order to still believe that the LDS church is the True church, it would be necessary to believe all those things, and if I didn't I couldn't be a member of the church, but I could still accommodate some of the good things from the church into my lifestyle, and not belong to any particular religious denomination....

Thoughts please??? :)

Hi Pushka,

In a word....

yes

rj

[pushka]

Well, with all the differences of opinion upon the genuinity (is that a word?) of the BofM, and the whereabouts of Hill Cumorah, and the U-turns in church doctrines upon receipt of revelations, I just wondered whether there might be some members who are doubting their whole belief in the Church and its origins, and just choose to stay with it as the W.O.W seems a healthy lifestyle to follow, and obviously the church does do a lot of good, 'christian' things...

Can anyone give any more than a one word reply to this? :)

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 3 2005, 02:25 PM

Well, with all the differences of opinion upon the genuinity (is that a word?) of the BofM, and the whereabouts of Hill Cumorah, and the U-turns in church doctrines upon receipt of revelations, I just wondered whether there might be some members who are doubting their whole belief in the Church and its origins, and just choose to stay with it as the W.O.W seems a healthy lifestyle to follow, and obviously the church does do a lot of good, 'christian' things...

Can anyone give any more than a one word reply to this? :)

Pushka,

Sure...

This is my opinion only....if there are members out there who are maintaining membership say because of the Word of Wisdom, which of course anyone outside the church can practice and millions do...then, they are simply missing out on what it means to be a member of the LDS church.

If a person does not have a testimony of the Restored gospel ie; all the things you mentioned plus a whole lot more....then..I have to ask the question....Why stay a member? Their membership in the church is doing them no good in the practical sense...and the only way I can see how it would do some good is the fact that they would still have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, as well as being kept in the "pipeline" as it were....so the Home Teachers, Bishops etc...can still maintain contact and hopefully rekindle their testimony.

But..again, IMO....if they truly do not believe in 99% of what the Church believes then their membership is not benefiting them other in those ways I mentioned above.

randy

[Ray]

Originally posted by pushka@ Feb 3 2005, 09:32 AM

My question is this...Is it necessary to believe all that Joseph Smith said happened to him...ie. visitations from God, angels etc. Finding the BofM and translating it, and further revelation?

Yes, it is necessary to believe everything that Joseph Smith said happened to him, because these things are a matter of personal witness and not of personal opinion.

Is it necessary to believe that the current prophets are receiving/have received current revelation....some of which has altered church doctrine?

Yes, it is important to believe that prophets are receiving/have received current revelation if they have received current revelation, otherwise those people who claim to be receiving revelation from our Lord are bearing a false witness.

Btw, I believe and testify that prophets know the difference between how it feels to receive revelation from our Lord and how it feels when something merely makes sense to a rational mind. Many things can appear to make sense, or seem rational, but not everything that seems to make sense is true.

(Is it necessary to believe that the current prophets are receiving/have received current revelation) in order to follow the Church's general teachings which you find useful, good, and healthy...and ignore those which you disagree with...Is that possible?

Yes, it is possible to be selective about which revelations you will accept and live by, accepting only the ones that make sense to you and that you can agree with, but all revelation from our Lord is His will whether you accept it or not. Thus the importance of being able to receive revelation for ourselves to know whether or not what a prophet claims to be revelation is in fact revelation.

Would anybody say they could do that, or would they fear excommunication because obviously (to me anyway), in order to still believe that the LDS church is the True church, it would be necessary to believe all those things, and if I didn't I couldn't be a member of the church, but I could still accommodate some of the good things from the church into my lifestyle, and not belong to any particular religious denomination....

Believe it or not, there are many people in the Church who do not accept everything that a prophet says, and the Church does not desire to excommunicate any of its members unless there are serious infractions of law. People who fail to acknowledge some revelations from our Lord simply put themselves at a disadvantage by not gaining knowledge that they could otherwise gain to bless their lives.

[pushka]

Thanks for your replies...I'm sorry if my question seemed to be a 'nonsense' question...it's just something that was bugging me...a feeling I got that some people were maintaining their membership in the Church for other reasons (perhaps to keep the family happy/guilt or whatever...take your pick) when not actually believing all of its teachings...

I know that it wouldn't make sense to stay a member of the church if you didn't believe in the JS story and current revelation etc. that is why I decided not to return to the church 20 years after leaving it...I wasn't baptised I just attended in my mid-late teens as a potential member.

Maybe the reason I really had to bring up this question was because a few years ago I was tempted to start attending the LDS church again...to be a part of it as an adult rather than as a child, because of the closeness of the congregation, social activities, attitudes towards families which all appealed to me...however I decided that if I was going to return, I would have to return with a real belief in the church again...and in order to do so I started reading about it more, and started questioning things...as I've said above, I found that things didn't make so much sense to me as they had when I was younger, I didn't believe unquestioningly anymore, and so didn't return...but I could've so easily done so, and pretended to believe everything, go along with everything, if the people there were kind to me and I enjoyed the social aspects of the church again....

Does that make any sense to anyone? That somebody might choose to do that? I'm not challenging anyone, I'm just clearing things off my chest I suppose...

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 3 2005, 09:32 AM

This will appear to be a totally silly question to ask of you all...LDS members I mean, however it might clarify why I was so interested in the strength of Cal's testimony...I suppose I was asking about his belief in the fact of the Church being the Only True Church, the True Restored church.

My question is this...Is it necessary to believe all that Joseph Smith said happened to him...ie. visitations from God, angels etc. Finding the BofM and translating it, and further revelation?

Is it necessary to believe that the current prophets are receiving/have received current revelation....some of which has altered church doctrine? In order to follow the Church's general teachings which you find useful, good, and healthy...and ignore those which you disagree with...Is that possible? Would anybody say they could do that, or would they fear excommunication because obviously (to me anyway), in order to still believe that the LDS church is the True church, it would be necessary to believe all those things, and if I didn't I couldn't be a member of the church, but I could still accommodate some of the good things from the church into my lifestyle, and not belong to any particular religious denomination....

Thoughts please??? :)

I think if we must realize that all that is said about the leaders of the church, both past and present have two sides to the story, but we never hear the other side.

If JS was living today, and could have a personal chat with each of us as we questioned him about what really happened back in his days, would we find it a whole different matter?

If we could have a personal chat with the prophet of today, what would we feel and find about him and what is going on?

Taking the written word of others and not using the Holy Ghost to testify of truth (knowing it is really the Holy Ghost we are listening to and not Satan) what would we really find to be true and what would we find to be false?

I believe, that even the very elect will be tested and some will fall because they didn't know the glory of God personally enough to know truth from falsehood.

Consider Moses in the BofM, how he had an angel of light come to him and try and fool him. If Moses hadn't already experienced the Lord, he wouldn't have known the difference.