Question about Excommunication of Murderers

[PastorBob]

"We must grow in the gospel for Eternal rewards.

The quality of our works as saved individuals will determine our level of exaltation."

When you are born again and your life belongs to Jesus you are saved by Grace and Grace alone. Works are done because your spirit leads you to do them. There is no reward for works. We do works not for gain but because God want us to do them. We do not keep score and we do not boast, we don't talk about it and we don't even remember most of them. In my belief there is no exaltation. My sole perpose is to serve God. I am His servant and I am glad to do it. God Bless, Jim

This is what I have been saying for years; sin arises from spiritual disconnection, and faith without works is dead, ie; good works come naturally from union with Jesus Christ, and if they do not follow, the former is lacking. If sin is being done, attend to the spirit, not to the sin, which is but a symptom.

Submitting the fruits of actions to the Lord is the only way to avoid being tied to them later... and "as a man sows so shall he reap."

[skippy740]

2 Nephi 25

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

(Emphasis mine)

This is a difference with Mormon/LDS theology compared to most mainstream Christian teachings.

Notice I only quoted out of our own scripture - The Book of Mormon to make the point.

[JohnnyRudick]

. . .This is a difference with Mormon/LDS theology compared to most mainstream Christian teachings.

Notice I only quoted out of our own scripture - The Book of Mormon to make the point.

Right.

But you must remember that the Bible is also LDS Scripture and With out the Church of Jesus Christ we would not have the Bible either. Esp. the TR texts of the New Testament. We are also the primary conserver of the masoretic text Text of the Old Testament also so with out the Church of Jesus Christ we would have to rely on the Septuagint for what the early prophets said.

The Bible is what Jim believes in and so do I and I know you do also.

The Bible in it's context of the "Saved" Christian although teaches us that the Atonement is free to all who will accept, once saved it may be true that you are always "saved" it is the responsibility of a wise steward to grow with what Christ has given us.

And Paul understood that concept and preached it very well.

It is a shame that "Christians" ignore his teachings on the subject and regulate it to the general resurrection and judgment of the dead at the last day.

That was not what the context teaches.

Paul taught along with Peter that the "saved" christian has a "responsibility to grow through works for the glory of Christ.

Sorry Jim but that is what the Bible teaches and it agrees with restored Scripture as well in context.

Bro. Rudick

[PastorBob]

What I do not understand is how the Bible, and book of Mormon, are so incompatible. As a Christian, the Bible is the final authority for me, but I love to read all the other scriptures from other faiths too, such as the book of Mormon.

[Dravin]

What I do not understand is how the Bible, and book of Mormon, are so incompatible. As a Christian, the Bible is the final authority for me, but I love to read all the other scriptures from other faiths too, such as the book of Mormon.

And as a Mormon is amazes me how compatible they are despite claims to the contrary. *shrug* All comes down to interpretation in cases like these.

[JohnnyRudick]

What I do not understand is how the Bible, and book of Mormon, are so incompatible. As a Christian, the Bible is the final authority for me,. . .

I hear this over and over.

As I have explained above and in soooooooo, many other posts.

Some in great detail, how the Bible IS the product of the Church of Jesus Christ and is not incompatible with the Bible but is a companion that compliments the Bible.

The Bible, esp in the TR tradition is one of the standard works of the Church and I believe is also the words of God.

Many bible use bibles that are not of the TR tradition and have many deliberate translation errors and I also believe them to be the word of God as long as they are translated correctly.

Again, you must "rightly divide? the Scripture.

And "study" so that you can rightly divide.

There is no so-called contradiction that cannot be cleared up by this.

You do not have to run to General Authorities or textual critics to clear up errors in the Scripture.

Just "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a

workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word

of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

Bro. Rudick

[LolaBella]

Earlier this week, a man was released from prison, after serving 27 years of a life sentence for murdering a barmaid in 1979. DNA evidence, not available at the time of his trial has proved that he could not have possibly been the murderer. (Sean Hodgson murder conviction overturned after 27 years due to DNA evidence - Telegraph.)

But this set me thinking: If this man had been a member of the LDS church - and had been excommunicated following his conviction - what would be happening now? Would he be immediately reinstated in the church, and if so, would the church admit that it had been wrong to excommunicate him? If not, what would be the justification for not readmitting him, considering that his innocence has been proved beyond doubt?

I don't know if there are any precedents: The closest I can think of was John D. Lee, but he was never (as far as I know) formally acquitted of murder, and had been dead for nearly a century before his reinstatement.

(P.S. I should probably have posted this under General Discussion - sorry)

If the church relies on revelation, why doesn't the appropriate leader pray for the answer? If it works then this should be a simple solution right?

[JohnnyRudick]

If the church relies on revelation, why doesn't the appropriate leader pray for the answer? If it works then this should be a simple solution right?

Most of the time the Lord does not give revelation on casual requests when He has already given us principals to guide us by.

It is our duty to study and find these thing out and the Holy Ghost will point out the relevance of what we study.

We are creating a "straw man" here and I know the Church already has it figured out.

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance,

charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to

no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a

workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word

of truth.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they

will increase unto more ungodliness.

Bro. Rudick

[Jim108]

I hear this over and over.

As I have explained above and in soooooooo, many other posts.

Some in great detail, how the Bible IS the product of the Church of Jesus Christ and is not incompatible with the Bible but is a companion that compliments the Bible.

The Bible, esp in the TR tradition is one of the standard works of the Church and I believe is also the words of God.

Many bible use bibles that are not of the TR tradition and have many deliberate translation errors and I also believe them to be the word of God as long as they are translated correctly.

Again, you must "rightly divide? the Scripture.

And "study" so that you can rightly divide.

There is no so-called contradiction that cannot be cleared up by this.

You do not have to run to General Authorities or textual critics to clear up errors in the Scripture.

Just "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a

workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word

of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

Bro. Rudick

"Many bible use bibles that are not of the TR tradition and have many deliberate translation errors and I also believe them to be the word of God as long as they are translated correctly."

John, how do you identify the parts of the Bible that are incorrect. It seems to me that this is dangerous territory. Jim

[JohnnyRudick]

"Many bible use bibles that are not of the TR tradition and have many deliberate translation errors and I also believe them to be the word of God as long as they are translated correctly."

John, how do you identify the parts of the Bible that are incorrect. It seems to me that this is dangerous territory. Jim

For me, I shun all non TR texts of the New Testaments completely unless some writer uses them and claims he has quoted the Bible.

That makes it easy for me.

Others do not seem to care.

I also compare with quotes from the other standard works of the Church and pray to understand what is going on their.

Most of the time that is very easy.

Kinda like comparing Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Kindergarten stuff.

Bro. Rudick

[Jim108]

For me, I shun all non TR texts of the New Testaments completely unless some writer uses them and claims he has quoted the Bible.

That makes it easy for me.

Others do not seem to care.

I also compare with quotes from the other standard works of the Church and pray to understand what is going on their.

Most of the time that is very easy.

Kinda like comparing Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Kindergarten stuff.

Bro. Rudick

"Kindergarten stuff."

OK, here is a passage starting from Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

So, tell me why these words are untrue (in your opinion). It is not "Kindergarten Stuff" to me. God Bless, Jim

[HiJolly]

Um... What is meant by "TR"?

HiJolly

[talisyn]

Um... What is meant by "TR"?

HiJolly

I was gonna ask that.....

[JohnnyRudick]

Um... What is meant by "TR"?

HiJolly

Covered in other forums but never can be said enough in as many different ways as I can. . .

The KJB New Testament is based mostly on the TR or the "SYRIAN" or Byzantine text which is identical with the prevalent Greek text of the Middle Ages

and the Old Testament is based on the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text.

It is NOT the Latin Vulgate!

It is the Greek Vulgate of the first and second centuries, and it stands in opposition to the EGYPTIAN texts, of the Vaticanus-B which the other Vatican manuscripts agree the most with, the (B) being the best represented of them.

The KJB is a product of the TR.

The TR comes from the Syrian texts which survived having their beginnings in Antioch Syria.

This is the Bible.

Any other bible written from another history line (ancestory) are merely "versions" of the Bible Scripture.

That is why I say King James Bible.

Or

German Bible

Or

Great Bible

Etc.

On the Other Side

Then we have the Dewey Version of the Bible

or

The American Standard Version

And thousands of other versions of the LXX and so called Newer daughters of the "More Reliable Tests Say. . ." versions.

They are only "versions of the TR and corrupt versions at that.

Drowning the world in a flood confusion.

The Restored Gospel dissipates the confusion if you keep your eyes on the Scriptures and off the Bible Correctors League of the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil.

This is the Book where you find its pages quoted by God in the Book of Mormon.

It leaves a trail of blood that can be traced through-out history.

From where they were first called Christians, Acts 11:26, to "the end" this trail crimson trail is easily traced.

The old common Latin (not the high Latin of the scholars) of the Donatists, Montanists, Novatians, and Waldenses survived against persecution beyond belief.

The King James translators had three of these Bibles.

They had the works of Beza, Erasmus, and Stephanus, the Complutensian and the Antwerp Polyglots.

These Masoretic, Syrian and the Ana-Baptist Bibles all stood together against the Vatican bibles of France, Rome, and Egypt.

The King James translators were much more cautious then modern Bible perverters.

The corrupted texts referred to are the ones I have been warning you about.

They are the text from the Vatican library, and from a waste basket in a monastery near Mt. Sinai.

These texts were developed by a scholar named Origen of Alexandra Egypt.

With the help of the likes of Irenaeus, Aquilla and Cyprian.

The contents of these Manuscripts were had by the King James translators in the form of Jerome's Latin version of the Bible and the Rheims bible from France.

We are told by most sources today Jerome translated from the Hebrew.

Yet his translation agrees with the Corrupt texts of the above scholars, yet against the Masoretic text of the Hebrews.

Yes, Jerome's Latin Vulgate did agree with the 1582 Rheims version.

or should I say that the other way around?

The King James translators knew better then to use these translations as they knew they were based on leavened manuscripts.

Most of the Scholars today know better also, yet...

As said earlier, these corrupt texts were had from Egypt. Alexandria Egypt.

The source of these corrupt, leavened bibles we are buried in today are from those Alexandrian philosophers of northern Egypt

These are mainly the texts of the bible that we are warned about in;

1 Nephi 13:25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in

purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

1 Nephi 13:26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve

apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest

the formation of a great and abominable church, which is most

abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken

away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and

most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they

taken away.

1 Nephi 13:27 And all this have they done that they might pervert

the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and

harden the hearts of the children of men.

1 Nephi 13:28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone

forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that

there are many plain and precious things taken away from the

book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

Those corrupt texts have had a very comfortable existence through out history.

Why?

They have been under the protection of the Establishment Church.

These texts from the Vatican library were found in a waste basket in a monastery near Mt. Sinai.

These texts were developed by a scholar named Origen of Alexandra Egypt.

With the help of the likes of Irenaeus, Aquilla and Cyprian.

The contents of these Manuscripts were available to the King James translators in the form of Jerome's Latin version of the Bible and the Rheims bible from France and they chose to ignore these texts as they were considered unreliable.

We are told by most sources today Jerome translated from the Hebrew.

Yet his translation agrees with the Corrupt texts the above scholars, and against the Masoretic text of the Hebrews.

Yes, Jerome's Latin Vulgate did agree with the 1582 Rheims version of the Catholic Church and against the TR in critical places.

The King James translators knew better then to use these translations as they knew they were based on leavened manuscripts.

Most of the Scholars today are familiar with the true history of these texts yet they in their criticisms in most cases argue in favor of the Egyptian texts.

In a "nutshell"

Other versions of the TR other then the King James were also written like the German Bible, The Great Bible, Tyndale's New Testament etc.

These Bibles have stood through out history on their own against the other line of bibles from the Hexapla, concocted at first in the early 200's A.D. and Origen's LXX through Jerome's Latin Vulgate (405 A.D.) down to the Reams bible out of France (1582 A.D.) Satan's answer to the TR translations.

The armies of Darkness have in the past used the Roman/Egyptian church to keep the people in darkness and under their thumb.

As the years move on and this combination gains power in other instruments of persuasion and they are used as well.

Some in the Church in the past and the present are used to cast doubt on the Bible.

The one Standard work of the Church that has been widely accepted by the masses from the time they have been dispensed to the people through the TR.

God preserved this line to show up the Corruption of the Bible correctors and they have cranked up the war on it since the 1500s.

The war on the Antioch, Syrian texts have been from the beginning with Origen, Pamphilus, Eusebius, Jerome and other Bible correctors to this day

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

"Kindergarten stuff."

OK, here is a passage starting from Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

So, tell me why these words are untrue (in your opinion). It is not "Kindergarten Stuff" to me. God Bless, Jim

I regret wording it just that way.

"Kindergarten stuff"

I do that every once and again:(

As I have already pointed out in so many different ways.

We are save through our faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He has done the "work" that gets us "saved" in Him.

It is not through our works that we receive Salvation unless you could call "receiving" a work.

But once, as I have already so many times in the past through out so many forums have explained, once we have received the gift of the atonement we now have a responsibility.

A responsibility to what?

Keep "saved"?

No, I do not say that.

But once you know that through the Grace of God that you are "saved", will you be content to stay in your "saved? condition or move on in good works?

You are right.

If you are "saved", you will want to do so.

But if you do not do so under the Keys of the Kingdom you lose a great opportunity to grow in the Kingdom of God.

You may grow personally, and you may achieve a certain amount of spiritual growth, but you still lose many opportunities working, even if it is for good, outside the Kingdom.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye

have need that one teach you again which be the first principles

of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk,

and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the

word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full

age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised

to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of

Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the

foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward

God,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of

hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Bro. Rudick

Edited March 24, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Misplaced words

[PastorBob]

I personally use the 1560 Geneva, which was the basis for the KJV, they simply changed a few words here and there to match masonic terms, like breeches to aprons, etc.

All these new bibles aside from the KJV and Geneva have particularly mutilated 1st John, and Galatians.

These verses kept intact in the KJV and Geneva, in which St. Paul makes it clear that Abraham was not a person, but an allegory, seem to be particularly attacked.

Galatians 4 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

[JohnnyRudick]

I personally use the 1560 Geneva, which was the basis for the KJV, they simply changed a few words here and there to match masonic terms, like breeches to aprons, etc.

All these new bibles aside from the KJV and Geneva have particularly mutilated 1st John, and Galatians.

These verses kept intact in the KJV and Geneva, in which St. Paul makes it clear that Abraham was not a person, but an allegory, seem to be particularly attacked.

Galatians 4 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gotcha:)

The 1560 Geneva Switzerland test was also used to assemble the King James Bible.

It is a product of the Beza 5th edition text, a clean text from the Greek Vulgate and other surviving Scripture from the land of the Apostles of the Lamb of God.

Thanks.

Bro. Rudick

[PastorBob]

Another example that comes immediately to mind is "God is Love" being changed to "God is etc" in other versions.