Interesting profile of Judge Jay Bybee . . .

[Just_A_Guy]

. . . here.

Bybee, a Church member and BYU grad, was in the White House Office of Legislative Counsel during the "torture memo" fiasco, and signed off on them.

[Palerider]

Is he wrong in being a part of that????...I am curious

[Elphaba]

Here is the Red Cross torture report in full. It includes the reference to putting a collar on the victim and using it to hold onto while slamming his head into the concrete.

The following gives an overview of the report:

Red Cross: Torture Committed At CIA Sites - CBS News

These techniques, the Red Cross states, included suffocation by water(water boarding), beatings, confinement in a box, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, exposure to cold temperatures or cold water, starvation and prolonged stress positions.

According to the report's authors, “in many cases, the ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program ... constituted torture.”

“In addition, many other elements of the ill-treatment, either singly or in combination, constituted cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If Bybee signed off on the memos Yoo wrote, then I think he is in trouble.

Of course, these charges should go much higher, but that never seems to happen.

Elphaba

[Palerider]

Here is the Red Cross torture report in full. It includes the reference to putting a collar on the victim and using it to hold onto while slamming his head into the concrete.

The following gives an overview of the report:

Red Cross: Torture Committed At CIA Sites - CBS News

These techniques, the Red Cross states, included suffocation by water(water boarding), beatings, confinement in a box, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, exposure to cold temperatures or cold water, starvation and prolonged stress positions.

According to the report's authors, “in many cases, the ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program ... constituted torture.”

“In addition, many other elements of the ill-treatment, either singly or in combination, constituted cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If Bybee signed off on the memos Yoo wrote, then I think he is in trouble.

Of course, these charges should go much higher, but that never seems to happen.

Elphaba

if he gets in trouble....then we need to line up all politicians that are crooks and run them out...:o

[Elphaba]

if he gets in trouble....then we need to line up all politicians that are crooks and run them out...:o

Can we start with Cheney?

Elphaba

[bytor2112]

Here is the Red Cross torture report in full. It includes the reference to putting a collar on the victim and using it to hold onto while slamming his head into the concrete.

The following gives an overview of the report:

Red Cross: Torture Committed At CIA Sites - CBS News

These techniques, the Red Cross states, included suffocation by water(water boarding), beatings, confinement in a box, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, exposure to cold temperatures or cold water, starvation and prolonged stress positions.

According to the report's authors, “in many cases, the ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program ... constituted torture.”

“In addition, many other elements of the ill-treatment, either singly or in combination, constituted cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If Bybee signed off on the memos Yoo wrote, then I think he is in trouble.

Of course, these charges should go much higher, but that never seems to happen.

Elphaba

"The methods of ill-treatment alleged to have been used"........based on statements by the detainees.......uh, yeah, I am sure they are credible.

[Dravin]

Can we start with Cheney?

Elphaba

Makes sense to start with him first then wait for last, with his health you might not get around to him in time. :)

[bytor2112]

Can we start with Cheney?

Elphaba

Cheney is already out....how about Barney Frank and Chris Dodd? and Nancey Pelosi and Harry Reid and dear leader Obama before he spends our country into financial ruin.

[Just_A_Guy]

As I understand it (and Elphaba, if I'm wrong, I really hope you'll chime in here!), we've done all of these (alone) for years. We've just never combined techniques--or used different techniques in close succession--the way we did in the last eight years.

Frankly, I think we need to get over some of our taboos about "torture" and say "yes, it's goshawful, and we avoid it when we can. But if we think you've got information that will save American lives from an imminent attack, we will use whatever means necessary to extract it."

PR considerations aside (and I realize that's a big leap), it seems more realistic to prescribing a procedure for "torture warrants" or institute an "anything goes for one week after capture" policy than it does to keep propping up this decades-old "we don't torture" façade. If those who actually do the torturing knew that their actions would be a matter of public record and scrutinized by all who follow them, we might actually see less use of torture.

[Jenamarie]

NPR had a story the other day about the report and how they questioned the detainees. Kept them seperated so they couldn't collaborate and present the same story, and lots of documents and stuff were checked out. They said the likelyhood of ALL of them coming up with the same details of what happened to them in Gitmo would be very difficult to pull off, given the way the investigation was handled. If they intend this report to be admissible in court, they'd have to use some very specific investigative techniques, or it would be too easy to throw it out.

This page as a link to the "All Things Considered" broadcast I heard that talked about it. It's just under 6 minutes long: Red Cross Report: Medics Grossly Violated Ethics : NPR

[Just_A_Guy]

I seem to remember that even back in 2004 we were hearing reports of some kind of intercepted Al Quaeda manual that told members that, if they were captured, they should allege torture.

Not sure how much detail it gave, though. Thanks for the link, Jenamarie.

[bytor2112]

I would suggest that once they have been sufficiently interrogated by an means necessary they should be quickly tried by a military tribunal and then quickly sent to meet Allah in the eternities......that is of course, unless they are found to be really just a harmless, misunderstood fellow caught up by accident in something to complex for them to understand. Then perhaps we can move them to the U.S. and release them as our new Attorney General has suggested.

[Moksha]

Can we start with Cheney?

Elphaba

Once he has barricaded his dungeon, I doubt you could easily get him out. Although there is a smidgen of a possibility if you used concentrated beams of sunlight and silver crosses.

[Elphaba]

I would suggest that once they have been sufficiently interrogated by an means necessary they should be quickly tried by a military tribunal and then quickly sent to meet Allah in the eternities......that is of course, unless they are found to be really just a harmless, misunderstood fellow caught up by accident in something to complex for them to understand. Then perhaps we can move them to the U.S. and release them as our new Attorney General has suggested.

Gotta love that humanity!

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Once he has barricaded his dungeon, I doubt you could easily get him out. Although there is a smidgen of a possibility if you used concentrated beams of sunlight and silver crosses.

Jon Stewart has a hilarious spot called “Baracknaphobia,“ where he gives a litany of Bush’s actions as president. This one cracked me up:

. . . allowed the vice president to live in a netherworld between the executive and legislative branch where his house did not exist on Google Earth.

Okay, maybe you have to watch Jon say it. Unfortunately, I can’t post the link because of language, but it is priceless.

Elphaba

[bytor2112]

Gotta love that humanity!

Elphaba

Those charming fellows that we should show such love and compassion for would like to see you in one of those nifty orange jump suits, surrounded by men with their faces covered, chanting allah akbar as they saw your head off and post the video on the internet. They would not hesitate to blow themselves up and as may American dogs and infidels as they could.......I am all for humanity.....especially protecting our own humanity.

Edited April 10, 2009 by bytor2112

[SteveAdams]

Those charming fellows that we should show such love and compassion for would like to see you in one of those nifty orange jump suits, surrounded by men with their faces covered, chanting allah akbar as they saw your head off and post the video on the internet. They would not hesitate to blow themselves up and as may American dogs and infidels as they could.......I am all for humanity.....especially protecting our own humanity.

I am very glad that few on this board support torture.

Bybee is wrong. Watereboarding is torture, and it is wrong. We should maintain the moral position of not practicing it. It is an embarrassment that Bybee is LDS.

I have twenty-eight years of experience as an Army interrogator.

I have deployed four times and have worked in eight interrogation facilities and have interrogated during ground combat.

I have been trained in interrogation by the CIA and have developed training programs for the Army.

I have never tortured or mistreated a prisoner. I have never come close to torturing a prisoner.

I am one of the most productive interrogators in the US Army. I know how to get information from people. My kids do not lie to me. They know better. During deployments I am called in to determine the veracity of key sources. I do not use harsh techniques.

I suppose torture might work. I am not sure. I am not an expert on the use of torture.

Fortunately, the US Army is emphatic regarding the torture and mistreatment of prisoners. I have NEVER been in a circumstance in which I was directed to do anything close to torture. I like it that way. I don't want the option to torture or mistreat prisoners.

I have always known that my career would be at risk if I mistreated a prisoner. I am glad for this. Those who advocate torture or the mistreatment of prisoners are not doing me any favors--they are trying to put me in a very difficult and immoral position. Torture might work. I don't know. I don't want to find out. What gives you the right to put me in the postion to torture a human being. You aren't the one who will be asked to torture.

That said, US Army interrogators are under nonsensically strict restrictions with regards to the handling and treatment of detainees. It is difficult to be effective now. We shouldn't torture or mistreat prisoners, but we are being much too restrictive.

[LittleWyvern]

The problem I have with the Bybee memo is that it basically says, through a weird legal argument, that the US can ignore international law regarding torture whenever it wants to (if you're curious, you can read the memo over here). On a purely legal level I think Bybee should be impeached, he's still a standing judge right now.

[Just_A_Guy]

If your assertion is that American judges or lawyers should be disciplined merely for ignoring international law that has not been incorporated into US statute or treaty, I disagree.

(By the way, LW, I'm getting a stiff neck from looking at your avatar! )

[LittleWyvern]

If your assertion is that American judges or lawyers should be disciplined merely for ignoring international law that has not been incorporated into US statute or treaty, I disagree.

Don't simplify it too much: a lot of those international laws have the United States' signature on it. Besides, the same legal argument in the memo can be used to completely ignore American laws on torture as well. Basically, it argues that the executive can define what torture means regardless of what the legislature or the judiciary (or anybody else for that matter) have to say about it.

(By the way, LW, I'm getting a stiff neck from looking at your avatar! )

It's a good month to be a little crazy!

[Just_A_Guy]

Don't simplify it too much: a lot of those international laws have the United States' signature on it.

Certainly. I'm still working through the memo bit-by-bit; when I responded I'd only skimed up to the part where it was talking about how the US had adopted the Convention in the first place with certain specified reservations.

Besides, the same legal argument in the memo can be used to completely ignore American laws on torture as well. Basically, it argues that the executive can define what torture means regardless of what the legislature or the judiciary (or anybody else for that matter) have to say about it.

I'm getting to that part now. Frankly, I'd be a little more sympathetic to this line of thinking if Congress had actually given the President an actual declaration of war against Al Quaeda.

[Hemidakota]

Remember, alot of that so-called reporting came from second-hand sources and not privy to what claimed to happened in person.

[LittleWyvern]

Remember, alot of that so-called reporting came from second-hand sources and not privy to what claimed to happened in person.

...which is why I'm deriving my arguments straight from the memo.

[Just_A_Guy]

While Bybee's reasoning in the newly-released memo, at least, is (IMHO) problematic, it's probably also important to note that he based his memo on certain representations of what the CIA said it had done, was doing, and would do in the future. It's appearing that the CIA was not telling Bybee the whole truth.

Garbage in, garbage out.

[LittleWyvern]

While Bybee's reasoning in the newly-released memo, at least, is (IMHO) problematic, it's probably also important to note that he based his memo on certain representations of what the CIA said it had done, was doing, and would do in the future. It's appearing that the CIA was not telling Bybee the whole truth.

Garbage in, garbage out.

That's a good point. With classified information most likely under and over this memo, it's almost impossible to find who was really responsible for this line of thinking. However, I at least think someone should be held responsible for it.