Tithing

[aj4u]

I would say it is not about us; it is about Him.

Many religions say it is about our obedience and our faithfulness, but that begs the question: What is one obedient and faithful to do?

Muslims, for example, pray five times a day in certain a direction. They are obedient and faithfull to do so. Does that mean God is going to bless them for it over someone who does not believe it is necessary to face a certain direction and pray five times in one day?

[prospectmom]

We each will be judged individually.. based on our life experience... I have a feeling Fahter in Heaven will be much kinder to us than we are to ourselves.

[aj4u]

We each will be judged individually.. based on our life experience... I have a feeling Fahter in Heaven will be much kinder to us than we are to ourselves.

When it comes to matters of the soul, our feelings make a wonderful servant but a very poor leader!

It is written: "My people perish for lack of knowledge" Many people believe in Jesus in different ways; for instance, Muslims believe He is a great prophet but not the Son of God. Cults like Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus is the only angel God calls His son. Moreover, there are other Christians that believe that Jesus is a created being.

All Christians build on the foundation of Christ in different ways, but some will receive rewards and some will suffer loss. All will suffer loss, however, regardless of what they do if they don't know who Jesus really is and how to build on the chief corner stone foundation of our eternal souls.

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Jesus is God in the flesh; He is the creator of every living creature on earth and at all levels and dimensions of heaven. When it comes to knowing Jesus, tithing is the very least of my concerns. To know Christ, NOT ABOUT Him, is to have eternal life!

Edited May 10, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

General comment for lurkers and whoever:

When truth is spoken and we reject it, that is an experience. It is written, "If we reject the love of the truth, God will send us a strong delusion that we might believe a lie." That would be another experience to give account for on judgment day. God has given us the gift of eternal life. I know I have it. Do you?

[Dravin]

To know Christ, NOT ABOUT Him, is to have eternal life!

Yes and:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So whether tithing (or anything really) is a commandment is pertinent and if you keep it (if it is a commandment) is also pertinent though certainly not the totality of it.

When truth is spoken and we reject it, that is an experience. It is written, "If we reject the love of the truth, God will send us a strong delusion that we might believe a lie."

Its appreciated to cite things when you quote them. For those wondering this is a reference to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11.

[aj4u]

Exactly what is more important - the world creditors or GOD? That is always the choice that many in the church will be facing from now on. This is not going to get any better and there is no real savior of the world that will help.

It is better to loose a house than to loose your salvation.

Wait a minute, you believe you will loose your salvation if you don't tithe?

[aj4u]

Yes and:

So whether tithing (or anything really) is a commandment is pertinent and if you keep it (if it is a commandment) is also pertinent though certainly not the totality of it.

Its appreciated to cite things when you quote them. For those wondering this is a reference to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11.

If you are saying that tithing is a commandment for the New Testament Church, it would be appreciated if you can give the verse for that in the Bible.

The way I see it, the commands given to the NT church is to love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments rest all the law and the prophets. Nothing else!

Anyone trusting in tithing as a command leading to the salvation of your souls is to trust in dead works! Giving is a good thing, but I will not frustrate the spirit of God's grace in such a way as to say it can make the difference on our eternal destiny. Our salvation is only by faith through God's grace. Trusting in any other works is dead works and will cause us to fall short of God's grace and Christ is dead to you. If you want to give a tenth of your income, that is fine, but don't do it as if it were a necessary work for your salvation!

It is written:

Gal 2: 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Hebrews 6

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

G

Edited May 10, 2009 by aj4u

[Dravin]

If you are saying that tithing is a commandment for the New Testament Church, it would be appreciated if you can give the verse for that in the Bible.

I'm saying if its a commandment it is pertinent to keep it, just as it would be for any commandment (if we don't keep the commandments we don't know him, by your own admission knowing him is eternal life). As far as limiting myself to the Bible, I'm not going to do that any more than you are going to limit yourself just to the Book of John.

As for as why I consider tithing a commandment, not going into more recent teachings on the subject. 3 Nephi 24 and Doctrine & Covenants 119:3-4.

The way I see it, the commands given to the NT church is to love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments all the law and the prophets. Nothing else!

Of these two commandments everything else is a subset of. So paying tithing would fall under loving God. Praying for those who persecute you is loving your neighbor and so on. At least that's how I read that particular verse, you are however free to not see it that way. *shrug*

[aj4u]

I'm saying if its a commandment it is pertinent to keep it, just as it would be for any commandment (if we don't keep the commandments we don't know him, by your own admission knowing him is eternal life). As far as limiting myself to the Bible, I'm not going to do that any more than you are going to limit yourself just to the Book of John.

As for as why I consider tithing a commandment, not going into more recent teachings on the subject. 3 Nephi 24 and Doctrine & Covenants 119:3-4.

Of these two commandments everything else is a subset of. So paying tithing would fall under loving God. Praying for those who persecute you is loving your neighbor and so on. At least that's how I read that particular verse, you are however free to not see it that way. *shrug*

I don't don't limit myself to just reading the Bible. I read other books too. Whatever goes along with or confirms the Bible even with elaborations I accept, but anything that goes contrary to it, I don't feel an obligation toward it in the least. The Holy Bible is my yard stick.

I say this from my experience of following a prophet in the group I used to belong to. I went through a seven year spiritual maze that God has delievered me from. Christians tried to talk me out of my deception, but I was like a Bible answer man type of dude who had all the answers even if they weren't in the Bible.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with or it is bad to tithe, but I know that trusting in our works to be okay with God is a deception that causes the law of Christ not to be in effect of our lives. If you feel you should *shrug* at this, I don't know what else to say. I am speaking what is true in love concerning the Scriptures. The ball remains in your park.

The Pharisees were careful to tithe. Jesus rebuked them. If we are going by the law and all its commands, we had better keep it all perfectly. We can't do that. That is why all this law keeping was nailed to a tree. If we have faith that equals all the good works through God's grace. His work is to believe on whom He sent. Don't be deceived!

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. If we do this we are doing the work of God and instead of us doing dead works in our own strength for God which will definetly be burned, God will create in us the will to do of His good pleasure so the works being done through us is wrought in God for which we will be blessed in the deed. There is where the major difference is. It is a matter of spiritual life and death. If I were to shrug at this, it would tell me I don't care about your soul or mine. That is the gospel. That is why it is called good news. We don't have to do it in our own strength. He will complete the work He started in us - not we ourselves!

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[Dravin]

If you feel you should *shrug* at this,

I shrug at the fact that we have different interpretations of scripture. So one verse you think contradicts something I feel doesn't there isn't anywhere you can really go from there except play the, "Your reading it wrong! No you are! No you are! No You!..." game which isn't something I'm particularly interested in doing. Well, there is explaining the need to pray over things and receive a witness for yourself but I'm assuming you've been presented with that already.

For instance:

Whatever goes along with or confirms the Bible even with elaborations I accept

I feel my beliefs go along with and are confirmed in the Bible (and other scriptures) and I accept them, can't really go anywhere from there except the 'you're wrong' or 'pray about it' route, well I suppose there is the 'I agree' route but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I am speaking what is true in love concerning the Scriptures.

You are speaking what you believe to be true concerning the scriptures as am I, which is what leads the the aforementioned situation. I don't doubt your motivations, I'm quite sure you believe what you are saying and that you are trying to correct my 'misconceptions' because of a Christlike love, I just disagree that I'm laboring under misconceptions.

The point of my (first) post was to say that keeping the commandments (what ever they may or may not be) is important as they are an aspect of knowing the Lord and thus obtaining eternal life. If you claim to know Christ but don't keep his commandments (once again what ever those may or may not be) you don't actually know him so keeping the commandments (what ever they may or may not be) should be a concern, not that tithing is a commandment. I believe it is but that wasn't the point of the post.

[aj4u]

Work out your own salvation = Godly

Work for your own salvation = death

[aj4u]

I shrug at the fact that we have different interpretations of scripture. So one verse you think contradicts something I feel doesn't there isn't anywhere you can really go from there except play the, "Your reading it wrong! No you are! No you are! No You!..." game which isn't something I'm particularly interested in doing. Well, there is explaining the need to pray over things and receive a witness for yourself but I'm assuming you've been presented with that already.

You know what ASSUME stands for? I understand perfectly what you're saying, and I respect you. I, however, make no assumptions regarding what you heard or will say. I am responsible before God to share what I got from Him by faith, and I did that with you. I don't have to do any more work than that. I did it because I owed you that.

If you want to discuss it further, I am here for you. If not, I wish you the best and God's richest blessings.

[Dravin]

You know what ASSUME stands for?

Are you saying nobody on the board yet has encouraged you to pray to know about the truthfulness of the doctrines you are being presented with? If you haven't somebody has been slacking and I encourage you to do so now.

For the record that was a generic you I was using in the section you quoted, I wasn't accusing you of about to throw a tantrum or get into a bash I was just pointing out that once both sides have presented their positions you can rehash (This is what it means! No this is!) or agree to disagree, or just down right agree, there are variations on the theme but those are the major ones.

The arguementative nature of the depiction (Yes! No! Yes! No!) was not to say you will behave like that, one can discuss the interpretation of scriptures in a reasonable and adult matter, its just in my experience thats not how it works out most of the time, bashes are all to frequent and seem more likely the longer a subject is punted back and forth.

If you want to discuss it further, I am here for you.

Depends, did you answer my first post? As far as I can tell, you disagreed on just what the commandments were and left it at that. If the scriptures in your reply where supposed to answer that then some exposition may be in order as I'm not seeing an answer out of them. Of course the fact that we very well may not have the same concept of just what they are saying may be why.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Dravin

[aj4u]

Are you saying nobody on the board yet has encouraged you to pray to know about the truthfulness of the doctrines you are being presented with? If you haven't somebody has been slacking and I encourage you to do so now..

I haven't been on this forum for every long, but I must say you are the first on it to tell me to pray about it.

For the record that was a generic you I was using in the section you quoted, I wasn't accusing you of about to throw a tantrum or get into a bash I was just pointing out that once both sides have presented their positions you can rehash (This is what it means! No this is!) or agree to disagree, or just down right agree, there are variations on the theme but those are the major ones...

Good, I wouldn't let it get that far into a bash. What is the point really? A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

The arguementative nature of the depiction (Yes! No! Yes! No!) was not to say you will behave like that, one can discuss the interpretation of scriptures in a reasonable and adult matter, its just in my experience thats not how it works out most of the time, bashes are all to frequent and seem more likely the longer a subject is punted back and forth.

Reasonable adult like is what I was hoping for. God said, "Come and let us reason together though your sins be as red as scarlet, I will make them white and snow."

Personally, I thought you were ending the conversation because you mind was made up about me and how these discussions end up. Is that a fact?

Depends, did you answer my first post? As far as I can tell, you disagreed on just what the commandments were and left it at that. If the scriptures in your reply where supposed to answer that then some exposition may be in order as I'm not seeing an answer out of them. Of course the fact that we very well may not have the same concept of just what they are saying may be why.

I will have to go back and look. I don't remember.

Do you understand that I have been tithing for a long time, and I used to think that other believers that stop doing it because it was an OT thing that really is not even clearly defined were out of it. Quess what, they were out of it for other reasons. Just cause someone is nuts or out of it doesn't mean they are wrong. I go to a church where 98.5 % of the people if not more believe in tithing. I am not going to try to stop them or you. I give. I just don't call it tithe. I don't judge you for tithing either. I guess I really don't see anything wrong with it per se. I just believe from a Biblical stance that putting our faith in any of our works for God in our own strength is dangerous, and I am not sure whether you agree or disagree with that.

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

The Law of tithing was reiterated to Mormons at the turn of the 20th century by our Prophet direct from Heavenly Father. The Church was in debt and the Prophet declared from the Lord that if the Saints would pay their tithe the Church would prosper! And , it did... Mosaic law or not it is a commandment of God to LDS.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if everyone gives 10% of their total income off the top that that organization will prosper. Any organization would posper and even become down right powerful. That is not a revelation.

In a way, we are paying our tithe to the government in the form of taxes. Look how powerful our government is!

By the way, power and prosperity does not equal a right standing with God.

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[krisjoy]

Hi!

Wow! Thanks for your post. It brings back memories. I hear the fear, getting to know Heavenly Father can be scary at first when you don't know whether He will come through for you or not. All you hear is what others tell you...Congratulations on your embarking on "Gaining Your Own Personal Testimony" God is love....ask Him what He wants you to do.....when I first started this would send me right into my addicition...My sponsor told me that my responsibility was to ask - we cannot control Him...His is to answer. He will answer at the right time in the right way at the right place. I found what surfaced were all my doubts, fears, worries, negative expectations.....when I talked with my sponsor about them - it was magical - seriously - it decluttered my head and my heart - I was accepted and loved for who I was...by a person and by God. I asked for what I needed greater faith, and trust, patience etc. He came through. It doesn't mean I was perfect...I did pay my tithing

what came was a feeling of peace that He would provide...If you don't feel or hear that He might be trying to reach you - the peace that passes all understanding is your witness that it is the right solution. It is worth the work to get to it.

I am having a challenge in finding a solution to a different difficult situation - having your post helped me remember the process, and that I didn't get to where we are without hearing Him...

Thanks again

[aj4u]

Hi!

Wow! Thanks for your post. It brings back memories. I hear the fear, getting to know Heavenly Father can be scary at first when you don't know whether He will come through for you or not. All you hear is what others tell you...Congratulations on your embarking on "Gaining Your Own Personal Testimony" God is love....ask Him what He wants you to do.....when I first started this would send me right into my addicition...My sponsor told me that my responsibility was to ask - we cannot control Him...His is to answer. He will answer at the right time in the right way at the right place. I found what surfaced were all my doubts, fears, worries, negative expectations.....when I talked with my sponsor about them - it was magical - seriously - it decluttered my head and my heart - I was accepted and loved for who I was...by a person and by God. I asked for what I needed greater faith, and trust, patience etc. He came through. It doesn't mean I was perfect...I did pay my tithing

what came was a feeling of peace that He would provide...If you don't feel or hear that He might be trying to reach you - the peace that passes all understanding is your witness that it is the right solution. It is worth the work to get to it.

I am having a challenge in finding a solution to a different difficult situation - having your post helped me remember the process, and that I didn't get to where we are without hearing Him...

Thanks again

Who is this post in response to?

[aj4u]

The baptismal covenant.

Your saying that tithing is a baptismal covenant?

[pam]

In that once you are baptized you know that there are certain things that will be required of you as a member of the Church. One of them is tithing.

[krisjoy]

Hi,

I am embarrassed and had a chuckle over this. I cannot find it. I thought I was responding in the right place. A person was saying they were trying to pay their tithing and had major bills coming up and were terrified. I will keep looking - sorry.

[pam]

kris no need to feel embarrassed..It was the OP of this thread.

ok, so we have only just started paying tithing again. We told the Bishop we spend every penny we earn so we would miss out somewhere. He agreed to pay for our food and wrote us out a cheque to last a month. Well, we had an unexpected and urgent bill to pay and we had no choice but to use the money.

Now we have the situation of having to pay tithing over something else. They are all pretty serious bills that we have to pay, we cannot default. So then we will have to pay tithing or food/travel or a debt bill.

What do we do? I feel like I should be paying tithing especially as we got help. But as the Bishop has already helped us out, we cant get any more, especially as we've on;y paid a weeks worth.

I feel quite stressed and worried about this and woke up feeling sick with worry in the night. I feel like this could be a test and I should pay it and see if Im blessed like Ive been told. But money would literally have to be dropped through out letterbox for this to work. We have just had a tax rebate, so that wont happen.

I really dont know what to do about this situation.

[Dravin]

Personally, I thought you were ending the conversation because you mind was made up about me and how these discussions end up. Is that a fact?

No, its more like I was worried it might end up like that and I didn't really have the energy for that kind of thing so I was kinda trying go for an agree to disagree thing.

Do you understand that I have been tithing for a long time, and I used to think that other believers that stop doing it because it was an OT thing that really is not even clearly defined were out of it. Quess what, they were out of it for other reasons. Just cause someone is nuts or out of it doesn't mean they are wrong. I go to a church where 98.5 % of the people if not more believe in tithing. I am not going to try to stop them or you. I give. I just don't call it tithe. I don't judge you for tithing either. I guess I really don't see anything wrong with it per se. I just believe from a Biblical stance that putting our faith in any of our works for God in our own strength is dangerous, and I am not sure whether you agree or disagree with that.

The thing is I'm not talking about tithing, I'm talking about commandment keeping in general. One of my favorite scripture chains (short as it may be) is the scripture you referenced (John 17:3, though I suppose you could have been referencing 1 John 5:20) and the one I quoted (1 John 2:3-4). The net result being if we want to know God we need to be doing our best to keep his commandments, I'm not saying that tithing or any commandments of their own accord have any saving power, that lies with Christ. I could keep every commandment perfectly (theoretically of course) and if there was no Christ, no atonement it doesn't get me anywhere.That having been said, Christ has asked us to follow him, if we want to know him we need to do that and part of following him is keeping his commandments.

[aj4u]

No, its more like I was worried it might end up like that and I didn't really have the energy for that kind of thing so I was kinda trying go for an agree to disagree thing.

The thing is I'm not talking about tithing, I'm talking about commandment keeping in general. One of my favorite scripture chains (short as it may be) is the scripture you referenced (John 17:3, though I suppose you could have been referencing 1 John 5:20) and the one I quoted (1 John 2:3-4). The net result being if we want to know God we need to be doing our best to keep his commandments, I'm not saying that tithing or any commandments of their own accord have any saving power, that lies with Christ. I could keep every commandment perfectly (theoretically of course) and if there was no Christ, no atonement it doesn't get me anywhere.That having been said, Christ has asked us to follow him, if we want to know him we need to do that and part of following him is keeping his commandments.

Now you are making more sense to me. I agree with all except I have a problem with one thing you said: "The net result being if we want to know God we need to be doing our best to keep his commandments" This is a big problem not because we shouldn’t keep His commandments. It is the problem that we have to do our best to keep His commandments to know Him. The fact is, my best will never be good enough nor will any human being's effort. The point is, it is impossible to live the Christian life by doing our best. Our best doesn't come near a right standing with God; in fact, it drives us further from Him. That is the diabolical trick of Satan. He destroys using religious counterfeits. I know what I am talking about. Please trust what I say here, and listen carefully and pray at least about it. Ask God to show you where I am at and not anyone else. Our best will never be good enough but Jesus’ best is always good enough. With Him and through Him all things are possible. We don’t get to know God by keeping the commandments and the laws because we cannot do it. We surrender completely to Christ and by faith only through His grace we have the power to be sons and the power to keep from sin and do good works because it is Christ doing it through you. What we do for God is filthy rags, but what Christ does through us is the only thing that is Holy and acceptable to God. If you can only understand this and accept it, you will see a night and day difference in your relationship with Christ.

Referrences:

Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Tius3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ro. 10 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[Dravin]

The fact is, my best will never be good enough nor will any human being's effort.

So don't even try? (Romans 6:15)

Unless you are seriously advocating that we can't keep the commandments perfectly so don't even try and that not even trying won't effect our knowing of God then we aren't in disagreement.

If that is what you are maintaining then you are saying that as per 1 John 2:3-4 that nobody knows Christ (none of us have the truth in us) and thus none of us will be granted eternal life (John 17:3). You just damned the entire human race with your logic or decanonized 1 John.

Please trust what I say here, and listen carefully and pray at least about it.

I've already prayed about the nature of faith and works and have received an answer. Namely that 2 Nephi 25:23 we need to do all we can and rely upon the atonement of Jesus Christ to make up the rather market shortfall. Do my works save me? No, but works are apart of following Christ, and following Christ (obeying him) will very definitely have an impact on my salvation.

After all, he's the author of salvation to all those who obey him (Hebrews 5:9). We are rewarded by whom we list to obey (Romans 6:16).

Our best will never be good enough but Jesus’ best is always good enough.

And grace, his atonement is what bridges the gap between our best and what is needed (see above 2 Nephi 25:23).

Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Yes, compared to the perfect righteousness of God anything we can do is of no effect, but we've still been commanded to pray for those who despitefully use us and various other things. This is not an indictment to not follow God's commands.

Tius3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

As previously stated our works have no power to save, only Christ does but we need to obey him.

Ro. 10 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

See above. Also, something I think a lot of people don't take into consideration is the fact that a lot of the letters sent out by the apostles were to converted Jews and non-Jewish converts who were constantly trying to stick to the Law of Moses (the later because of influence from the former) and the belief that salvation was a reward owed them by God because of righteous things they did (which makes sense from the pagan background of non-Jewish converts. A good harvests was owed them by Ceres because they sacrificed 2 goats and donated 5 gold to the local temple). Which is not the case, salvation isn't anything owed us, its a gift from God, but that doesn't mean we aren't to do our best to keep his commandments.

It was trying to dissuade the idea that, "Okay, I went to church 5 times, gave alms 3 times and prayed for that jerk at the post office. God owes me a ride to heaven now." not to quash the idea that, "I need to follow Christ and do my best to live as he lived and to follow his commandments and he'll make up my shortfalls and imperfections through his atonement."