Spiritual Needs of Homosexuals

[prospectmom]

Jim you are right but sadly it seems that some of our memberes are so homophobic they want to deny these children of God the same offered to them.

[bytor2112]

Folks, Jesus died for all sin. Homosexual sin is no different then our sins that we "think of as lesser", but are not. He took on the sin of the world, past, present and future. All are able to receive forgiveness. We must repent however. We must conform to what God has told us and not bend the word of God to fit our needs. We must change and repent and forgive. We must allow homosexuals into our churchs and to love them and to be TRUE to them. We let other sinners in. What makes their sin so much worse than our dirty laundry. Lets love each other and be TRUE to each other. God is very clear that acting out homosexual act is a sin. So let the sinners into the church. This is where they belong because Jesus loves them and us equally. Because you know what, they are a part of us.

It is true that all sin separates us from God, however, their are sins that are more difficult to repent of......especially sexual sins and more particularly homosexual sins. It's not that the Lord and the Atonement doesn't include these sins, it is because it is often so very hard for the transgressor to TRULY turn away from the sin.

Homosexuals are always welcome to attend LDS services and are invited to come unto Christ and drink freely from the Living Waters........but they must repent and have a mighty change of heart and abandon these sinful practices BEFORE they are baptized and confirmed a member of the Lord's church.

Jesus took upon him the sins of all humankind and satisfied the demands of justice and made mercy available to all....on conditions of repentance.

[Vort]

So Vort your perspective is you can not attend church if you are a sinner???????

No, that is not my perspective. That is simply the perspective you wish to assign to me. I think I've made my perspective crystal clear to anyone who cares to actually read what I wrote.

I think your misunderstanding....... I am not saying get baptized or take sacrement....

On the contrary, that is exactly what you said, or at least what you responded to. Skippy wrote (emphasis added):

Those who have same-sex attraction are still welcome to join the church - as long as they lead a celibate lifestyle. They can still have the Priesthood and all the other rights and privileges that the gospel brings. They need to make that lifestyle choice.

To which you responded:

So they aren't welcome otherwise??????

The answer, of course, is: "Right. If they don't repent, they are not welcome to join the Church." As has been said a dozen times or more in this thread alone, they are welcome to come to worship services, as long as they comport themselves appropriately. All are welcome to come, but only the repentant sinner is welcome to join the Church of God.

And before you go off hollering about how terribly judgmental this is, remember that it is the Lord himself who set this condition.

I am saying attending church and the functions provided should be open to all sinners or not.....

Then you should do two things:

• Follow the conversation more closely, so you don't respond to a question without even understanding what was written.
• Avoid accusing other parties of evils of which they are not guilty due to your own failure to follow the thread closely.

you seem awfully judgemental to me.

Given your overt (and false) judgment of me, I find this frankly hilarious -- even moreso, since you immediately go on to pass unrighteous judgment on your fellow Saints:

Jim you are right but sadly it seems that some of our memberes are so homophobic they want to deny these children of God the same offered to them.

Just keep working at it, prospectmom. Happy Mother's Day.

[prospectmom]

Wow Vort never been so attacked all at once by anyone here...... I am just trying to understand and franklyyou are rude and a cad to respond so harshly.

sorry I do not agree with you and blindly follow the masses... and I stand by what I said to Jim as true in my experiences in our church... if not yours it dosen't make it not so.

It is not necessary for you to mock me..

Just keep working at it, prospectmom. Happy Mother's Day.

working what??? you are very confusing and at this time reguarding your post to me your behaving very rudely

[Jim108]

It is true that all sin separates us from God, however, their are sins that are more difficult to repent of......especially sexual sins and more particularly homosexual sins. It's not that the Lord and the Atonement doesn't include these sins, it is because it is often so very hard for the transgressor to TRULY turn away from the sin.

Homosexuals are always welcome to attend LDS services and are invited to come unto Christ and drink freely from the Living Waters........but they must repent and have a mighty change of heart and abandon these sinful practices BEFORE they are baptized and confirmed a member of the Lord's church.

Jesus took upon him the sins of all humankind and satisfied the demands of justice and made mercy available to all....on conditions of repentance.

Sin either is or is not. All is an abomination to God. The differnce here is the political correctness is telling them that it is normal and they live the life and never repent. I am sad for them. God loves them very much. We need to get them into the church so they can see what is true. I am glad the LDS accepts them into the service. It is a good thing to do. Thanks for your post

[Vort]

Wow Vort never been so attacked all at once by anyone here......

Attacked? How do you think I've "attacked" you?

Which of the two of us lectured the other on being "judgmental"?

I have tried to respond honestly and straightforwardly to your observations and accusations. I thought I had done a pretty good job of keeping emotion out of the equation and just responding to what you wrote. On the other hand, you keep telling me that I am saying something that I'm clearly not saying, then judging me to be judgmental because of your (incorrect) conclusions.

And you're the aggrieved party?

I am just trying to understand

Then surely you're appreciative of my efforts to explain things to you. Right?

and franklyyou are rude and a cad to respond so harshly.

Ooooh. Guess not.

prospectmom, which of these two seems more rude and caddish to you?

• "So you're saying that homosexuals aren't welcome at Church and should just stay away????? You sound really judgmental and homophobic!!!!!"
• "You are misunderstanding the situation. That's not what was written; let me quote to you exactly what was written. And by the way, after all your judgments on me and others, I find it quite funny that you think me judgmental."

(Remember that in #1 above, the person she's responding to never said anything like what she claimed he had said.)

I don't know. To my ears, #1 sounds much more rude and caddish than #2. YMMV.

sorry I do not agree with you and blindly follow the masses...

Yes, you pride yourself on not being a blind follower. Problem is, so far you haven't managed to follow the conversation, either.

You say that you do not agree with me "and blindly follow the masses..." Here, you are very clearly accusing me of "blindly follow[ing] the masses". Please explain exactly what I have written that constitutes "blindly follow[ing] the masses" and exactly which "masses" I am "blindly follow[ing]".

and I stand by what I said to Jim as true in my experiences in our church... if not yours it dosen't make it not so.

But your experience does make it so?

It is not necessary for you to mock me..

Yet another accusation. Please point out where I have mocked you.

Just keep working at it, prospectmom. Happy Mother's Day.

working what???

Just keep working at following and understanding the thread.

you are very confusing and at this time reguarding your post to me your behaving very rudely

How's your behavior, prospectmom?

P.S. The Happy Mother's Day wish was sincere.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Vort

[skippy740]

Whoa. Time out here guys.

I think you're both agreeing in a very disagreeable fashion.

Yes, EVERYONE is allowed to come to services.

NOT everyone is ready to enter into the covenants we make at baptism.

Joining the Church and participating in church services are TWO different things.

One can always attend services - no matter what their lifestyle is (as long as they behave appropriately).

Not everyone is ready to enter the baptismal covenant.

Some people can just be "spectators" of the church and join in worship services while others can be numbered among those of the Church of Jesus Christ.

I believe Prospectmom is just trying to be sure that those of same-sex attraction are welcome at our meetings.

Vort and I have been ensuring that we don't forget that attendance isn't the same as joining the church.

[Guest pimpberries]

Bravo!

I can't agree more; there is nothing positive going to come of alienating homosexuals, other religions or anyone for that matter.

Nobody is perfect!

[prospectmom]

Yes, EVERYONE is allowed to come to services.

NOT everyone is ready to enter into the covenants we make at baptism.

Joining the Church and participating in church services are TWO different things.

One can always attend services - no matter what their lifestyle is (as long as they behave appropriately).

Not everyone is ready to enter the baptismal covenant.

Some people can just be "spectators" of the church and join in worship services while others can be numbered among those of the Church of Jesus Christ.

I believe Prospectmom is just trying to be sure that those of same-sex attraction are welcome at our meetings

Thank you skippy I appreciate and totally understand what you have just said andn appreciate the effort to explain clearly.....

and that was exactly what I was trying to be sure of.

Vort ther is no sense in trying to talk to you so peace lets just let it go.

[Justice]

Yes, EVERYONE is allowed to come to services.

NOT everyone is ready to enter into the covenants we make at baptism.

Yep. As far as I can tell this point was first made on post #26, but people still seem to be intent on mixing the 2.

[bmy-]

Vort..

What about the young man who goes on his mission to 'cure' his homosexuality? We know that lust is a sin and has been likened to committing the sin itself.

Should he be sent home? Lust and celibacy cannot co-exist. That's scripture.

[Vort]

Vort ther is no sense in trying to talk to you

Why? Because I keep pointing out that what you write is incorrect?

As long as you wish to talk me into accepting what you write at face value, including having me apologize for things you falsely accused me of and that I didn't write, I suppose you're correct. You can't browbeat me into agreeing with you when you're wrong, so if that is your goal, I guess you're right, there is not sense in trying to talk to me.

Or you could just say, "Wow, I guess you were right. Sorry." But that might make you look like a pathetic sheepish follower, so best not to go there. Maybe honesty is not always the best policy, after all.

[prospectmom]

I guess it was easy to do Justice..... I admit to making that mistake but am glad to totally understand.... so even though it was made clear earlier I for one am glad Skippy took the time.

[prospectmom]

let it go Vort..... for the record I do not want to argue or be attacked by you because I disagree with you so ... please keep me out of your posts.

[Justice]

I don't think that's enough description of lust to make that conclusion.

All temptation comes to man, lust included. When we dwell on that lust in our mind, then it becomes sin. But, if we quickly displace it with a hymn or scripture, or some other way, and we turn the other way, I think that is what we are supposed to do. I don't see any sin in that.

I'm not disagreeing with your main statement, though. I don't think a mission is a place to "cure" same sex attraction.

[bmy-]

I don't think that's enough description of lust to make that conclusion.

All temptation comes to man, lust included. When we dwell on that lust in our mind, then it becomes sin. But, if we quickly displace it with a hymn or scripture, or some other way, and we turn the other way, I think that is what we are supposed to do. I don't see any sin in that.

I'm not disagreeing with your main statement, though. I don't think a mission is a place to "cure" same sex attraction.

I think you make a great point in defining 'lust'. There's a difference between lust and lusting after, I should have clarified. I think it doesn't change the point much.

[Vort]

Vort..

What about the young man who goes on his mission to 'cure' his homosexuality?

I have never heard of this. A few decades ago, my mission president made it clear that those who were struggling with homosexual desires probably should be home working on their problems rather than in the mission field. A few years ago, my stake president made almost the same point, suggesting that those struggling with homosexual desires probably had other things to worry about than missions.

We know that lust is a sin and has been likened to committing the sin itself.

Should he be sent home?

I suppose that would be for his mission president to determine.

I know that an elder in my mission once confided to the mission president that he felt some slight attraction to one of the sisters. The next morning, he was on his way to a new city. I assume homosexual feelings would be treated the same way, and if the missionary were unable to be in a situation without such feelings, the mission president might just send him home. But that's merely my own guess.

Lust and celibacy cannot co-exist. That's scripture.

I know of no scripture that defines celibacy in terms of lust.

[Vort]

let it go Vort.....

Exactly what is it you think I should let go?

for the record I do not want to argue or be attacked by you because I disagree with you so ... please keep me out of your posts.

I will respond to or include you in my posts when I choose to do so. If you again make false statements like you did, I will correct you if I wish to do so. If you make false accusations against me again, I will respond and tell you that you are wrong if I want to do so. If you ask any question, make any comment, or write anything that I have any desire to comment on, I will do so at my own discretion.

[prospectmom]

your just plain sad.....

[Vort]

your just plain sad.....

No, I'm actually quite happy. I have a beautiful and loving wife, great kids, a fantastic ward, good health. Hard to ask for much more, actually. God has been very good to me, far beyond what I deserve.

I notice you enjoy asking questions and passing judgment, but that you avoid answering questions and flip out any time you think someone else is passing judgment. Why is that?

[prospectmom]

I am not flipping out do not like being attacked... you posted judgements and opinions you didn't ask questions... I answer all questions asked. I haven't ( flipped out ) since I was banned and have since learned to follow the site rules. I wish you could do the same.

[prospectmom]

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post.

5. No cursing or crude language. Any topics of a sensitive nature must be placed in the Open Forum. Any swearing, including filter skipping, will result in an automatic one week suspension.

Vort just in case you haven't read the rules I have pasted for you review

[cofchristcousin]

Soo... If a gay person came to a service and it was somehow known, what could they expect? I assume you all introduce yourselves and shake hands and make small talk/fellowship after a service. Would members address it, or would that be something for leadership or would the gay one just get to worship without commentary? I've not attended an LDS service. I've only known a few LDS as coworkers, and those who have visited the Community of Christ forum.

[prospectmom]

I would hope they attend and are welcomed and fellowshipped like anyone else.

[Guest pimpberries]

ooooh Vort..!! Slow your roll homey..!! rotfl

Prospect mom says: