Fascism

[Guest pimpberries]

Do you often think fascism goes hand in hand with religion ? Does hypocrisy know no boundries ? Will we ever truly escape the vain ideas of man ?

Tyvm for your replies in advance.

:)

Edited May 10, 2009 by pimpberries

[cyoung]

No. No. No.

[spiritseeker]

To be honest I have no clue how you could equate the two. Fascism and religion?? Fascism is the system of goverment marked by centralization of authority under a dictator. It is strongly nationalistic and works under the guise that only the strong survive. That is totally the oppposite of our faith. In Christianity we are to take care of our weaker brethren , lift them up and love all no matter race , creed or colour. Now I am speaking from an LDS position I took by what you were inferring that somehow you equate Church leadership as a kind of dictatorship??? By no means are our Prophets dictators... They love and care for us and guide us in a world that is not so loving and caring. They do not dictate to us in the way I view as fascist .... And within our blessed Church all are welcome to come no matter socio-economic background or their race and we are not nationalistic. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent with this question but it sent chills up my spine...

[Guest pimpberries]

Perhaps I misunderstood your intent with this question but it sent chills up my spine...

Well; indeed you must have taken it a little differently than I, and after all it is a question..

I didn't have much intent my friend.

You may never know all of the LDS members are out there as well, so how can one say that there is not one that you or I might consider illogical or even fascist ??

[spiritseeker]

Well, I guess all I can say is I pray you are wrong about there being LDS members who view fascism as favourable. I don't see how it can be compatible with church membership...

[Kawazu]

Hi,

Religions are, (generally), authoritarian and encourage obedience. Likewise, militarily or economically fascist governments love obedience.

On the other hand, religions, (generally), compete with the State for devotion; therefore, spiritual leaders could encourage noncompliance to the dictates of militarily or economically fascist governments.

All things considered, I believe religions produce thoughtful, goodhearted folks more than they produce blind followers. Consequently, religions are a net benefit to society.

Sincerely,

Kawazu

[Guest pimpberries]

Hi,

Religions are, (generally), authoritarian and encourage obedience. Likewise, militarily or economically fascist governments love obedience.

On the other hand, religions, (generally), compete with the State for devotion; therefore, spiritual leaders could encourage noncompliance to the dictates of militarily or economically fascist governments.

All things considered, I believe religions produce thoughtful, goodhearted folks more than they produce blind followers. Consequently, religions are a net benefit to society.

Sincerely,

Kawazu

That is an interesting point of view, & I agree somewhat. I blame the institutions! It's the man ma'an..!!

[NeuroTypical]

I've met a facist mormon or two. We're a church - our membership includes sinners of all stripes.

But no, facism is not enshrined in the organization of the church.

Evidence:

* You can leave whenever you want to - it's a voluntary organization.

* You can do whatever you dang well please in this church - and the most severe, most horrible punishment the church can do in response is kick you out. And the door is always open to someone kicked out.

* Our highest leaders often condemn unrighteous dominion in the strongest terms. We're constantly told that abuse will not be tolerated in any form at any time.

[Kawazu]

I've met a facist mormon or two. We're a church - our membership includes sinners of all stripes.

But no, facism is not enshrined in the organization of the church.

Evidence:

* You can leave whenever you want to - it's a voluntary organization.

* You can do whatever you dang well please in this church - and the most severe, most horrible punishment the church can do in response is kick you out. And the door is always open to someone kicked out.

* Our highest leaders often condemn unrighteous dominion in the strongest terms. We're constantly told that abuse will not be tolerated in any form at any time.

Howdy,

Do you believe in it is expected in Latter Day Saint culture to obey or question authority figures? (Asking out of curiosity, not as a lead in for making a point.)

Cheers,

Kawazu

[Dravin]

Howdy,

Do you believe in it is expected in Latter Day Saint culture to obey or question authority figures? (Asking out of curiosity, not as a lead in for making a point.)

Cheers,

Kawazu

Both?

We're expected to obey our leaders, but if we have doubts or questions we are encouraged to ask the Lord. At least that's always been my understanding. In fact I've followed that advice to satisfaction, most noticeably when reactivating several years ago.

So if say President Monson next conference came out and said we as a people are no longer to wear the color purple we are expected to follow the prophet but if somebody is dubious of this they are encouraged to pray to the Lord and confirm what they are being told. Well, officially thats the answer, you do get plenty of people who are the mindset that you should believe what you are told and never ever have any doubts and you are crazy to even have them.

Or do you mean by question in the same way one would say question a political figure, that being loudly, fanatically and with an apparent eye towards recruitment, that is discouraged if that's what you mean.

[rameumptom]

I think Satan tries to use whatever organizations he can tap into to accomplish his works. So, occasionally some religions become radicalized, and become the source for many radical actions.

But then, so can environmentalism, politics, atheism, etc. Fascism, or rather, any form of Totalitarianism (they are all the same, just different avenues to the same objective) occurs when a person or group thinks they can rule best, or must rule in order to achieve their goals.

Anytime a group forces its ways upon others, one gets totalitarianism.

It is a sliding scale:

Totalitarianism..........................Democracy............Republic.....................Anarchy

Just how much governance does a person want in his/her life? I believe some is needed to protect us and our liberties. However, some think that they are doing the world a favor by nationalizing everything, while others think they do us a favor by destroying all forms of governance whatsoever.

Here's where I think history shows us on this scale:

1776 Articles of Confederation:

Totalitarianism.......................................................XX.....Anarchy

1789 Constitution:

Totalitarianism.............................................XX...............Anarchy

1863 Lincoln's Federalism during the Civil War:

Totalitarianism...........................XX.................................Anarchy

1936 After Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and FDR's Progressive actions:

Totalitarianism..................XX..........................................Anarchy

1985 Reagan revolution:

Totalitarianism.............................XX...............................Anarchy

2009 After Bush/Obama activism on a federal level:

Totalitarianism.........XX...................................................Anarchy

People use "good" excuses for using the federal government to solve problems. Sometimes we have legitimate reasons for greater federal power: such as times of war. However, right afterwards, we should go back to where we were before. Sadly, for most of the past century, we have been drifting further and further left. The only difference is whether the Republicans are spending money and creating regulations on their favorite issues, or the Democrats are spending money and creating regulations on their favorite issues.

[DigitalShadow]

Do you believe in it is expected in Latter Day Saint culture to obey or question authority figures? (Asking out of curiosity, not as a lead in for making a point.)

Apparently they obey if the authority figures have a conservative viewpoint, otherwise they look for every fault they can find and question everything.

[bytor2112]

Apparently they obey if the authority figures have a conservative viewpoint, otherwise they look for every fault they can find and question everything.

How so? I listen to and follow the counsel of Church leaders where their authority extends over ecclesiastical matters. I apply scripture, their counsel and much pondering and prayer over all of my decisions.

Politically speaking, I believe that fiscal and social conservative policy is in line with how the Lord wants us to live. We are counseled to live within our means......the government should do that as well. I believe that issues like abortion and g/l marriage are incompatible with my faith.

[NeuroTypical]

Do you believe in it is expected in Latter Day Saint culture to obey or question authority figures?

Who is the person/entity doing the expecting?

I urge my kids to do both - I don't 'expect' anything. We're not very well plugged in to LDS culture, so I don't much care what it expects.

LM

[DigitalShadow]

How so? I listen to and follow the counsel of Church leaders where their authority extends over ecclesiastical matters. I apply scripture, their counsel and much pondering and prayer over all of my decisions.

Politically speaking, I believe that fiscal and social conservative policy is in line with how the Lord wants us to live. We are counseled to live within our means......the government should do that as well. I believe that issues like abortion and g/l marriage are incompatible with my faith.

The comment was tongue-in-cheek based on my observations of living in Utah (yes, not every sarcastic post I make is referring to you :)).

[bytor2112]

The comment was tongue-in-cheek based on my observations of living in Utah (yes, not every sarcastic post I make is referring to you :)).

That really hurts my overly inflated ego DS!

[DigitalShadow]

That really hurts my overly inflated ego DS!

Seriously though, I was mostly talking about my co-workers who seem to think Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh are prophets. It's rather scary.

[bytor2112]

Seriously though, I was mostly talking about my co-workers who seem to think Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh are prophets. It's rather scary.

Hannity...don't watch or listen to....although I enjoyed Hannity and Colmes. Glenn Beck is funny, but a bit over the top at times and Limbaugh is hysterical. Limbaugh is an entertainer and proclaims so often. I agree with him often, but not always. I am a conservative....but more libertarian than Republican.

[DigitalShadow]

Hannity...don't watch or listen to....although I enjoyed Hannity and Colmes. Glenn Beck is funny, but a bit over the top at times and Limbaugh is hysterical. Limbaugh is an entertainer and proclaims so often. I agree with him often, but not always. I am a conservative....but more libertarian than Republican.

As far as I'm concerned, they're all entertainers that make outrageous claims to get people to watch/listen. I have no issue with that, that's just what entertainers do. The disturbing part is how many people take what they say as gospel.

[NeuroTypical]

Seriously though, I was mostly talking about my co-workers who seem to think Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh are prophets.

Ya mean they're NOT?

BURN THE HERETIC!

[DigitalShadow]

Ya mean they're NOT?

BURN THE HERETIC!

That's pretty much the reaction if I state my opinion at work. That's why I usually just keep quite when people discuss politics :)

[HEthePrimate]

Do you often think fascism goes hand in hand with religion ? Does hypocrisy know no boundries ? Will we ever truly escape the vain ideas of man ?

Tyvm for your replies in advance.

:)

I think people of all persuasions like to paint their adversaries as "fascists," in order to make them look bad. No, fascism does not go hand in hand with religion. I'm not sure what you mean by "does hypocrisy know no boundaries," but I do think it runs rampant and that almost everybody is guilty of it. It'll probably take a lot of time, and lots of effort, to escape the vain ideas of humankind.

Not to sound pessimistic, or anything! There is also plenty of good in this little world of ours. :)

HEP

[Yaqub]

All is vanity;

Fame, wisdom, love, and power were mine,

And health and youth possessed me;

My goblets blushed from every vine,

And lovely forms caressed me;

I sunned my heart in beauty' eyes,

And felt my soul grow tender;

All earth can give, or mortal prize,

Was mine of regal splendour.

I strive to number o'er what days

Remembrance can discover,

Which all that life or earth displays

Would lure me to live over.

There rose no day, there rolled no hour

Of pleasure unembittered;

And not a trapping decked my power

That galled not while it glittered.

The serpent of the field, by art

And spells, is won from harming;

But that which soils around the heart,

Oh! who hath power of charming?

It will not list to wisdom's lore,

Nor music's voice can lure it;

But there it stings for evermore

The soul that must endure it.

-Lord Byron

[Moksha]

Apparently they obey if the authority figures have a conservative viewpoint, otherwise they look for every fault they can find and question everything.

This leads to the fascinating question of whether most members would continue to frequently bad mouth President Obama if he were Mormon. The fact that Senator Harry Reid is Mormon has not stopped the endless barrage of insults he receives from his fellow Mormons.