Forced Conversion

[the Ogre]

Okay, I suck at writing polls (I'll work at it) The Question should be:

SLTrib’s Kirby stated: " As nice as it is to think about freedom of choice in religion, we're all trickle-down products of some sort of "forced" religion. Most people . . . a semblance of [religion] from their parents, who got it from their ancestors, who got it from whatever culture overran and dominated theirs. Those who didn't convert at the point of a sword did so through gradual assimilation and social pressure."

Do you agree?

Please see Kirby: Whether by Mormons or not, we're all products of 'forced' religion - Salt Lake Tribune

I read Kirby almost every time he writes. Sometimes he writes some funny stuff, sometimes not. This time he wrote a response to an article referring to people baptizing Pres. Obama's mother for the dead.

I think the article brings up a topical subject: religious conversion.

I am interested in the idea of forced conversion. A friend thinks it will be one of the defining arguments in the last days along with a few others. How do you feel?

Edited May 18, 2009 by the Ogre

[rampion]

The war in Heaven was about agency. God will not force anyone to follow Him. Satan wanted to do that. When people are baptized for the dead, the person the ordinance is performed on behalf of has a choice about accepting it or not. People will always have a choice. Not everyonone on the earth during the Millenium will be LDS.

In the end, they will know what the gospel is, and they will know that there are keys that they need, and they will have a chance to accept those keys and all that comes with them. But it will always be their choice.

[the Ogre]

I apologize to all. Polls are tricky. I wish the question field could handle more than a few words or that I was smart enough to force it to.

Sorry

(I feel retarded)

Edited May 18, 2009 by the Ogre

[BenRaines]

Following the foolish or not so foolish traditions of our fathers is not a conversion, as far as I am concerned. I think or fear that many who think they have been converted or follow a certain belief have not done what is necessary to become converted. I believe that to be true of many religions.

To follow a belief, to me, is not to be converted.

Ben Raines

[Justice]

Here's one PC might like:

Helaman 9:

39 And there were some of the Nephites who believed on the words of Nephi; and there were some also, who believed because of the testimony of the five, for they had been converted while they were in prison.

Some scriptures about conversion in the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 7:

21 And it came to pass that the thirty and first year did pass away, and there were but few who were converted unto the Lord; but as many as were converted did truly signify unto the people that they had been visited by the power and Spirit of God, which was in Jesus Christ, in whom they believed.

3 Nephi 9:

13 O all ye that are spared because ye were more righteous than they, will ye not now return unto me, and repent of your sins, and be converted, that I may heal you?

I agree Ben. Being converted is personal. It's not something you inherit by gene pool or tradition. Those things may help or hinder, but there is a point in everyone's life where they have to decide for themselves to follow Christ.

[Justice]

Here is the greatest explanation of this part of the plan of redemption found in scripture (this is a long block, read the bold items if you don't want to take the time to read it all--but I recommend reading it all slowly):

Alma 42:

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.

12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.

17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.

21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Justice

[applepansy]

A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

--Grandpa

[havejoy]

I saw my mother go to church because she was afraid not to. She'd been told about this unending lake of fire she would have to swim through for eternity if she didn't go to church. Eventually she stopped going anyway.

Then there's what I've experienced. Some guys told me about the pre-existence and it was as if I were being reminded instead of being taught. I learned more, questioned everything and chose to become a member.

I don't think anyone who is forced is ever truly converted.

[Guest Godless]

Subscribed. Too tired to respond right now.

[john doe]

I'm not really sure what the question was, I didn't see you write it out in your post and it's cut off before it becomes clear. So I didn't vote.

I grew up in the religion of my recent ancestors. I did, however, question my faith and obtained a confirmation of the truthfulness of it in my late teens. I sometimes wonder what my life would be like had my ancestors not converted to Mormonism and immigrated to America. I'm grateful they did so that I could benefit from being raised the way I was.

[the Ogre]

I'm not really sure what the question was, I didn't see you write it out in your post and it's cut off before it becomes clear. So I didn't vote.

I grew up in the religion of my recent ancestors. I did, however, question my faith and obtained a confirmation of the truthfulness of it in my late teens. I sometimes wonder what my life would be like had my ancestors not converted to Mormonism and immigrated to America. I'm grateful they did so that I could benefit from being raised the way I was.

Sorry, about that. Here is the poll I tried to write:

SLTrib’s Kirby stated: " As nice as it is to think about freedom of choice in religion, we're all trickle-down products of some sort of "forced" religion. Most people . . . a semblance of [religion] from their parents, who got it from their ancestors, who got it from whatever culture overran and dominated theirs. Those who didn't convert at the point of a sword did so through gradual assimilation and social pressure."

Do you agree?

Yes, but I converted.

Yes, religion comes from one’s ancestors.

No, agency rules!

No, I chose before birth.

Who cares, Kirby’s a hairy walrus.

[Moksha]

Point of a sword, eh? Ouch. That seems so long ago, that now I assume people come into a religion either asleep or awake.

[john doe]

I think that eventually, no matter what religion you are in, you must become converted to it for it to be meaningful to you. There must be a point where you say to yourself 'Yes! This is the right way.' You can grow up in your parents' religion, or forced to practice it by the sword or decree of a government or other power, but if you don't believe, then you are lost, a wanderer, tossed about by the words and doctrines of men. I have a feeling that many people will not have that 'aha!' moment in this life, but in the next.

I also believe that some people were foreordained to be leaders of Christ's Church. Some of us were chosen to do certain things in preparation for Christ's return. That does not mean that they were predestined to do them, but ordained in the preexistence to do them. They still have the agency to stray from that foreordination. We will all have the chance to practice our agency and accept the gospel and our duties in it or to reject it and live with the consequences.

And yes, Kirby is a hairy walrus.

[Maya]

I "knew" so many truths already as a child.... I am sure I was born knowing the truth. So I voted for taking the choise already before beeing born. Somethig tried to get me off track though... but did not succeed.

[HEthePrimate]

Hmm...

When I think "forced conversion" I think of the Sephardic judíos escondidos. Be that as it may...

I was BIC and my parents raised me LDS. I've always been active in the Church, generally believed, and generally did what I was supposed to. However, for a long time I didn't feel like I "knew," or that I had been "converted." Then, as an adult, I was converted, as it happens, to the same religion my parents raised me in. :)

People are largely products of both genetics and the way they were raised. Yet agency certainly plays a part. "Conversion," properly speaking, cannot be forced. But adherence to, and even belief in, may be.

HEP

[Guest Godless]

Historically speaking, the second option has normally been proven to be true. Kirby's right, the most prominent religions in the world reached that status by brute force. In modern times though, agency is beginning to trump tradition, so I ended up picking the third option.

We are all born atheists. Religion and faith in God are things that have to be taught to us. These things don't come naturally. So it makes sense for people to take on the religion of their parents. We're programmed to, and we really have no say in the matter when we're children.

A day always comes, however, when an individual has to decide if they actually believe the religion they were born into, or if they're just doing it lip service for the sake of their family. Some people are perfectly content to stick with tradition. Others feel the need to scrutinize and question their upbringing and often end up finding something that works better for them. My mother and I both did this. She was raised in an Irish Catholic family and converted to Mormonism. I was raised in a Mormon household and deconverted into atheism. It's hard to break with the family faith, but it's better than doing lip service to a religion you don't believe in. Fortunately, we live in times when it's becoming less and less common for people to be disowned by their parents for abandoning the religion that they were raised in. It makes room for more agency and understanding.

[DigitalShadow]

I think the majority of people (probably not vast majority though) end up being whatever religion their parents are. Obviously people have their own free will and can choose whatever religion they want after they are no longer under the care of their parents, but the influence of parents is often strong (even if the children don't admit it) and I also know many families that would flat out disown their children for such a thing.

While technically we have the freedom of religion in the US and many people exercise that freedom, realistically many other people in this country don't have the freedom to choose a religion other than their parents religion without great consequences. I was lucky, my parents encouraged me to think for myself especially with regards to religion. I guess many religious people feel lucky that their parents forcefully imprinted the gospel on to them and wouldn't see me as lucky at all though.

[ploomf]

I was actually talking with my mom about this subject a few days ago. I agree that your religion and your relationship with God is based quite a bit on luck. Where you’re born, what religion your parents are, your parents attitude toward religion, all this generally affects what you will believe as an adult. In the US we are pretty lucky, we have the freedom to choose what religion we are going to belong too and it’s pretty easy to learn about the various religions out there. Not everyone in the world today has that freedom.

I personally chose to join the LDS church as a teenager. I wasn’t raised in any one religion, my mother felt God was important, religion wasn’t. The closest we got to religious instruction in our home was watching Jesus Christ Superstar with her every Easter. I also went to an after school program and a few bible camps sponsored by a local Baptist church for a few years but that was it. Joining the LDS church was a very easy thing for me to do, I already believed many of the things they taught about the nature of God and Jesus Christ and about salvation.

[Justice]

I was actually talking with my mom about this subject a few days ago. I agree that your religion and your relationship with God is based quite a bit on luck. Where you’re born, what religion your parents are, your parents attitude toward religion, all this generally affects what you will believe as an adult.

...that is, if you believe these things ARE just luck.

[Maya]

An interesting point from a book of a person who was dead sometime. She understood, that the variety of churches is because we all are on different stadium. That is also what I been saying all the time. We climd the stairs of knowledge and we should choose according to how we feel is right for us.

This ofcourse is a problem in a family that is deeply an other stadium, than what we are ourselves. We need to understnd better that it seems that even in LDS families children are born who are not on LDS stadium, but an other churches level. Some of these kids are good and stay as LDS all their life and maybe even develope to one at the end, but no matter what church we are in, we can not force anyone to develope to something they are not willing to.

God with his overpowering love will love everyone of his children regardless childs development stadium. For us LDS the sad thing is that we also understand the blessings, that those persons will miss, by not wanting to progress in their journey.

Among all the religions I know of... and I have a knowledge of quite a few... LDS is the religion that is as it claims the religion in the world today that helps you colsest to God. There are a lot of ready people waiting. That is why we should go even more to the world and gather the crops. We should not loose our time in those that are not on our stadium in their development, but find the ones that belong to us.

We also need to humbly understand that there may also be people from other religions who for some reason have not heard of us or who have not been able to join, but who will be among us at the end.

Beeing LDS does not secure your place in celestial, but it helps you to get there. Then again not beeing LDS is not a closed door, we keep it open by Templework and invide everyone to come to the Lord.