Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

[pam]

Again I totally agree with you Carl.

[JohnnyRudick]

Quote the rest of that verses to understand it in context. Phil. 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

If we exalt ourselves, God will humble us. Pride comes before a fall! We are supposed to have the mind of Christ.

I have no problem believing that Jesus is Jehovah, but keep in mind Jesus didn't exist as flesh and bone during that time nor was He called Jesus. I have no problem with someone showing me they have more knowledge than me, but what good is knowledge if it never leads you to the truth. You have failed to show me how I have been disrespectful:D

The correct text as it is revealed today in the King James Bible which we use.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in

Christ Jesus:

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not

robbery to be equal with God:

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took

upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of

men:

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled

himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the

cross.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and

given him a name which is above every name:. . .

You quote a Scripture from some corrupt text and then you go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the Scripture:confused:

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Genesis 1:26

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Let's see... God said this (above)...if we are created in God's image...why are we not a Spirit then? To me this says that God has a body of flesh and blood or else we would not be in the same likeness or image as Him.

Pam I come before you as but a humble man and wish to put this forth for consideration.

We were created in God's image and likeness but this was in the "Beginning":)

We were put in the Garden with a body of "Flesh and bone"

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:

handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye

see me have.

I speculate that in the garden we were of Flesh, bone and water.

in the garden Eve brought us through a change in our bodies which changed the water to blood.

IE/Water into Wine

John 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of

Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

John 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the

marriage.

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith

unto him, They have no wine.

John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with

thee? mine hour is not yet come.

John 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he

saith unto you, do it.

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after

the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three

firkins apiece.

John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water.

And they filled them up to the brim.

John 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto

the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that

was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants

which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the

bridegroom,

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth

set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that

which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of

Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples

believed on him.

Thee are many other verses to go into but maybe that is another thread:o

After the Resurrection of Jesus He no longer had a body of flesh and blood for there is corruption in the blood, He now possessed a body of flesh and bone and in His circulatory system, He had in it flowed pure Water.

Last miracle of His life on earth, changing the wine (blood) to pure Water.

The First man Adam had Flesh and Bone.

Water not Blood for in the blood is the seed of corruption just as in the grape which the drink of the grape is a symbol of the blood.

In the ressurection and in those who are translated will have their bodies "Changed" and in that change will be blood into water.

I believe that is why the first recorded miracle of Jesus was showing what happened in the fall.

Too much Scripture reading sometimes leads to strange ideas;)

Just a thought:rolleyes:

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 13, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[JohnnyRudick]

The Bible doesn't say that God is flesh and bones. It is an inference you're making that is inconsistent with the rest of Scripture from the Bible. That which has been created the earth and that is there in has been created from what does not appear. Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Flesh and bones is not something that doesn't appear!

1Jn. 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. IMHO, those are some dangerous inferences to be making.

The Bible is right.

God made all things of things that do not appear.

This was written in a time when the average person was not aware of the molecular world or even finer material that.

Today some can grasp what God was getting at in revealing this truth.

Unless you have been persuaded by the superstitious teachings of the "Early Church Fathers".:)

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

God is Spirit

God the "Holy Ghost" is Spirit.

Made of that which does not appear;)

to the natural eye.:)

Bro. Rudick

[Carl62]

NO

God has not shown himself to any man. Moses spoke to God face to face in a burning bush and Jacob wrestled with God trhrough an angel, but humans cannot see a spirit.

So then Stephan was lying when he said he saw Jesus standing on the RIGHT HAND of God? At the very least, Stephan saw God's right hand. How do you explain that?

[Justice]

Carl, I'm so glad we have Lehi and Nephi's writings in the Book of Mormon about their visions of the Tree of Life. I'm so thankful for the clarity the restored Gospel gives us on who the Father and Son are and how we should understand this statement made by aj4u. I'm glad to have more of the account of Moses and Enoch so we know the proper way to interpret their words.

God the Father has not shown Himelf to any man, until Joseph Smith. Jehovah, or the pre-mortal Christ, has shown Himself to men of faith in all dispensations, even as a Spirit before He took on flesh. Only until the doctrine of God, as taught by men, was so corrupt and foreign to the truth did the Father HAVE to show Himself to man to dispell the false notion of the Trinity.

I can't express in words how thankful I am for the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Snow]

EPHESIANS

49-3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

50-PHILIPPIANS

50-4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I believe that includes logic. Now, regarding your question about the trinity is a tough question to answer because people have different concepts of what embodies the trinity doctrine. If I say yes, I might be agreeing to someone's error concerning their view of the God head. Why can't you settle for I believe in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as did the disciples and apostles. The three are one yet distinct and also of the same substance and nature as written in the Bible. It really defies all logic. What I can tell you is I do not believe that God is flesh and bones. That is unequivocally against Scripture in the Holy Bible that explicitly states “God is Spirit” and does indeed clash with the Bible big time. God being flesh and bones, as you believe, implies that Adam was and is God.

That's nice but I believe I asked for some proof.

Obviously you, and Paul and the unknown author of Ephesians have an opinion but opinions are proof.

Do you have any proof that what you claim is true or any proof that God agrees with you?

[Snow]

This is enough for me to seriously look at some red flags. There are many more verses. If you don't accept these already posted from the Bible, you won't accept the others either. Hence, we'll have to agree to disagree civily as we have both been.

You accuse me of not accepting Bible verses? Why are you ignoring the verses I posted?

... since you flat out refuse to explain you belief on God, after having been asked a half dozen times - can you at least tell us what is so horrible about your beliefs that they can't be discussed publicly?

[Snow]

So then Stephan was lying when he said he saw Jesus standing on the RIGHT HAND of God? At the very least, Stephan saw God's right hand. How do you explain that?

Oh please, what kind of silly statement is that.

We don't know what Stephen said. We only know what the anonymous author of of Acts said Stephen said.

[Justice]

It implies that Adam was God?

Huh?

You know, aj4u, if I believed the way you say I do, I could see why you would have an issue with my beliefs. But, so far, I see very few statements regarding my beliefs that you have gotten right.

How can you have had such a long discussion with so many of us and still believe some of the things you do? I believe Adam is God? I believe God is not Spirit? I believe we are saved by works? On and on...

I think you have made this discussion fail because you have not sincerely tried to understand our beliefs.

Even worse... you can't even see that you haven't tried to understand us.

[Snow]

NO

God is flesh and bone in Christ Jesus the WORD made flesh. This is something we cannot understand even Paul said it is not even clear what we shall be, but we will be like Jesus when He appears, but God is a Spirit. This is a mystery. Foolish people, however, have tried to create a doctrine out of this mystery (like the JWS). God has not shown himself to any man. Moses spoke to God face to face in a burning bush and Jacob wrestled with God trhrough an angel, but humans cannot see a spirit.

Have you even read the Bible?

Newsflash: God, Christ, has a body. Are you going to tell us that 1. Christ is not God or that 2. No one has seen Christ?

Obviously many, many, many people have seen God.

Even if you believe that God is someone other than Christ, many people have also seen God, as reported in the Bible at least:

Moses spoke with God face to face, not face to burning bush.

Jacob wrestled with God. Obviously he saw him. Are you going to tell us that God stopped being God while wrestling?

There are tons of examples, known to those that read the bible, of men seeing God.

How about Job: Job 42: 5. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

[prisonchaplain]

We interpret the Bible with the aid of modern scripture and prophets. So, yes, our interpretation will be different than other Christian religions who do not use these sources.

What aj4u is doing is showing where our beliefs clash with what modern Christianity teaches, as PC stated. That's a given. But, he has not shown where the Bible and Book of Mormon clash, unless he uses his interpretation.

I'd only add that AJ's interpretation (God is Spirit, not flesh) etc. is one for which there is tremendous unity in the Christian world. But, you are right, it's because we do not use the lhe LDS revelations. IMHO, what's being attempted here is for AJ to suggest that LDS teachings have little basis in the Bible alone, and others here to find hints of LDS teaching in it. We might nudge one another, but this is not a "clincher" issue for either side.

[aj4u]

How so?

Don't you believe you are saved?

Isn't that the EXACT same presumption?

No, John says, "These things I have written unto you that you might know that you have eternal life. It is a gift you either have it or you don't. I have received the gift of eternal life. Those who don't know they have it, haven't received it. 1Jn. 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

For example, if I send you a birthday gift and ask you did you get it, and you say, "I hope so or I am don't know yet," that means you haven't received it.

[aj4u]

I am watching a Movie called the Work and the Glory has any one seen it? Is it factual presentation of Joseph Smith?

[aj4u]

I'd only add that AJ's interpretation (God is Spirit, not flesh) etc. is one for which there is tremendous unity in the Christian world. But, you are right, it's because we do not use the lhe LDS revelations. IMHO, what's being attempted here is for AJ to suggest that LDS teachings have little basis in the Bible alone, and others here to find hints of LDS teaching in it. We might nudge one another, but this is not a "clincher" issue for either side.

Does that mean you believe that the Book of Mormon and LDS doctrine clashes with the Bible? That is what we are trying to establish with this thread.

[Carl62]

Oh please, what kind of silly statement is that.

We don't know what Stephen said. We only know what the anonymous author of of Acts said Stephen said.

Oh, you're right. That was a silly statement of me. I even found someone else who made a very similar "silly" statement - "Stephen saw the Lord on the right hand of the Father, but They did not address or instruct him". Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley. 178th Annual General Conference. Oct. 2007. Silly man, isn't he?

[pam]

I am watching a Movie called the Work and the Glory has any one seen it? Is it factual presentation of Joseph Smith?

It is a historical fiction drama.

[pam]

We've had 368 posts on this thread and all we are doing is going around and around in circles. Both sides believe what they believe. I really want to know what more can be said?

[prisonchaplain]

Does that mean you believe that the Book of Mormon and LDS doctrine clashes with the Bible? That is what we are trying to establish with this thread.

Without LDS revelations there is not sufficient biblical support for such distinctives as the teaching that God has a physical body. This and other LDS distinctives are in knowing contradiction to historic Christian teaching. BUT, that's not your question. My answer though is that they certainly do clash with the way we have understood the Bible. Then again, that's why Joseph said God told him the truth was lost and had to be restored. You and I disagree, but it's pretty hard to "prove" our point based upon our treasure of 2000 years of understanding, if our audience dismisses much of that teaching as "incomplete." So, the "clashing" is against historic Christian teaching and understanding. The Bible itself stands...may those who have ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

[Carl62]

We are not told to figure out God's essences through human logic. It is neither right nor safe to do so.

But isn't this what you've done? Haven't you got it figured out that God is just a Spirit? You're contradicting yourself.

[aj4u]

Have you even read the Bible?

Newsflash: God, Christ, has a body. Are you going to tell us that 1. Christ is not God or that 2. No one has seen Christ?

Obviously many, many, many people have seen God.

Even if you believe that God is someone other than Christ, many people have also seen God, as reported in the Bible at least:

Moses spoke with God face to face, not face to burning bush.

Jacob wrestled with God. Obviously he saw him. Are you going to tell us that God stopped being God while wrestling?

There are tons of examples, known to those that read the bible, of men seeing God.

How about Job: Job 42: 5. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Actually you have brought up some good points. These verses have puzzled me; however, it doesn't make for a good argument that God is flesh and bone. Many people say they can see even though they don't physically see. For example, the lyrics to Amazing Grace "I was blind now I see" There are many ways of seeing and perceiving that can be interpreted as seeing. If I saw some of God's glory, i would say I have seen God. Or any spiritual vision. We have to take all the Scripture and look and understand what is Spiritually discerned, Look at these verses for instance: Gen. 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

Jn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Jn. 43-1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Tim. 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jn. 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Are we now going to say that the apostels didn't read the Bible? But you have brought up some good points Snow. I am willing to drop this if you are. It seems we are getting no where. I don't really understand why Jacob said, "I have seen God face to face" except that he many have wrestled with a spiritual being. How does he know it was God if he had never seen Him before? In other words, your argument for God being flesh and bones from a Biblical perspective is very weak. Especially when the apostles say no man hath seen God at any time. Have you seen Him?

Edited June 13, 2009 by aj4u

[pam]

Have you seen Him? In using that argument how do YOU know he is not flesh and blood.

[john doe]

Just because we interpret the Bible differently from others does not mean our beliefs are not based in the Bible. We have shown you the Bible references we use to show that God has a body. You choose to interpret those verses differently. That does not mean you are biblical and we are not. Maybe it means your interpretations, the interpretations without the aid of living prophets BTW, are wrong, and ours are right.

[aj4u]

I have already said that Jesus is God in the flesh.