Before us...

[Koizito]

Because after the hurting/not hurting question comes the truth question... And there we don't think the same way...

[the Ogre]

Because after the hurting/not hurting question comes the truth question...

I don't think so. You've already made your theological truth-claim. You're an atheist. I'm fine with that.

There is a common ground. I agree with: "If you believe your god wants you to torture people in order to save them, then that kind of faith is bad, no matter what..."

You also said: "Since that wouldn't hurt anybody, I think, there wouldn't be a problem IMO..."

I do not believe in conversion by coercion. I generally agree with removing religious edifices from public space. Religion should not be involved in torture, crusades, and territorial theft. Religion has a long history of all these things. My father's Scottish ancestors probably became Catholics when the choice was believe or die.

But if an individual's faith does not believe in religious coercion or imposition, why do the critics care what I do or believe?

[bmy-]

But if an individual's faith does not believe in religious coercion or imposition, why do the critics care what I do or believe?

In general.. the people who catch the most flack are the ones who believe in creationism or other silly Biblical stories. From experiences.. I think LDS in general are treated fairly well by atheists who actually understand what they believe. It's the evangelicals that take most of the shots it seems.

I do not think there is anything wrong with promoting reason and science over faith as a way to explain the universe. I'm all for that. All I ask is that people stay respectful (and for the average theists to admit that their view is not as 'logical' as the atheists).

[Islander]

In general.. the people who catch the most flack are the ones who believe in creationism or other silly Biblical stories. From experiences.. I think LDS in general are treated fairly well by atheists who actually understand what they believe. It's the evangelicals that take most of the shots it seems.

I do not think there is anything wrong with promoting reason and science over faith as a way to explain the universe. I'm all for that. All I ask is that people stay respectful (and for the average theists to admit that their view is not as 'logical' as the atheists).

Why do you have to cut the other trees around you to feel the talest in the forest, so to speak?

Why do you have to promote "reason and science over religion"? Teach what you will, you do not have to compare it or juxtapose it to religion. We preach and teach the Gospel of Christ without regard for other religions, atheists and the like. I suggest that your exercise is less that genuine. Atheists, openly and consistently oppose religion as a critical component of your agenda. The WHOLE essence of atheist philosophy is the denial of deity. In fact, it is the Christian God the one that your design is centered against.

It is also telling that atheists come to a religious forum and spend so much time trying to share their agenda when the purpose and intent of the forum is completely the opposite. Just interesting.

[Koizito]

It is also telling that atheists come to a religious forum and spend so much time trying to share their agenda when the purpose and intent of the forum is completely the opposite. Just interesting.

Everybody says that... It is also interesting that you find curiousity so interesting... It is pretty common in us humans...

And even though atheists and theists have some very different world views, should we stop care about religious people and also stop communicate with them? Call me crazy but I think not...

[the Ogre]

And even though atheists and theists have some very different world views, should we stop care about religious people and also stop communicate with them? Call me crazy but I think not...

Nope, in fact there are other atheists on this board. They communicate on all sorts of subjects including atheism. There have even been a few LDS atheists. My question for you is: why do people who have written off G-d, care if other people still do?

It's an interesting question because so many atheists believe erroneously that a belief in G-d precludes reason, logic, and compassion. There are some who feel every religious person is an much an extremist as the abortion-doctor assassin.

[Koizito]

The religion itself may encourage reason and logic, but in one thing it will always exclude them: the existence of god... There are not objective proofs for the existence of god... So yeah, a religious person may never say he or she is totally in favor of logic and reason, even if his or her religion tells him or her to do so...

[Hemidakota]

It did with Eve when she was very curious of gaining further instruction without the aid of those assigned to them in the Garden of Eden. However, it can also be our downfall.

In a few years, atheists will not exist anyway...so why bother in listening?

[Islander]

The religion itself may encourage reason and logic, but in one thing it will always exclude them: the existence of god... There are not objective proofs for the existence of god... So yeah, a religious person may never say he or she is totally in favor of logic and reason, even if his or her religion tells him or her to do so...

That reasoning does not hold water. Science has gone on for 2000 years based on assumptions and theories for which it had no evidence whatsoever. Some of the most elegant and popular theories of the day are based on theoretical/mathematical models!!

And yes, as a man of God and a scientist, I can stretch my mind to work based on theory and build whatever model it helps me solve everyday problems and create applications/solutions. So, if you negate the existence of God as a starting point, then you will never find if this is the case since the proposition of your thesis holds an intrinsic bias that completely invalidates the experiment.

[Koizito]

Then as a scientist, you should know these theories you speak of are actually hipothesys...

And isn't math one way to prove some things?

And about your last paragraph, by that logic you, as a religious person, could never make theories without taking in account the existence of god, as an atheist can't make theories accounting with god...

[Islander]

Then as a scientist, you should know these theories you speak of are actually hipothesys...

And isn't math one way to prove some things?

And about your last paragraph, by that logic you, as a religious person, could never make theories without taking in account the existence of god, as an atheist can't make theories accounting with god...

It seems you have taken a position where religion and science are mutually exclusive when that is simply not the case. I point to the millions of Latter-day Saints that are men and women of science in diverse disciplines. Hypothesis are necessary to formulate frameworks to further inquiry, knowledge and understanding. We are not divorced from scientific inquiry. All I say is that, as a scientist, I operate under a theories/hypothesis "as if" it were a valid assumption. But it may not be. It serves its purpose, however. At times the premise is proven accurate at times false, but it had a roll to play.

Science relates to and can ONLY explain a portion of the human existence/experience. We believe that the essence of God of truth and light, intelligence and thus ALL knowledge belongs to Him as it was set in motion by Him. We do not "discover" anything but merely become aware of truth which already existed, facts hidden from view and awareness but nevertheless real and tangible just not yet accessible to our understanding.

This could become a never-ending argument. Suffice to say that I have access to the same information, reason and science that you hold dear and the foundation of your belief in the absence of God. I have additional information, irrefutable facts, unequivocal and unbending personal revelation and evidence that indeed God is real, that He lives, that He cares and answers my prayers.

Since you and I, both, made up our minds on the matter; we should split the difference here and agree to disagree.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Islander

[bmy-]

Why do you have to cut the other trees around you to feel the talest in the forest, so to speak?

Why do you have to promote "reason and science over religion"? Teach what you will, you do not have to compare it or juxtapose it to religion. We preach and teach the Gospel of Christ without regard for other religions, atheists and the like. I suggest that your exercise is less that genuine. Atheists, openly and consistently oppose religion as a critical component of your agenda. The WHOLE essence of atheist philosophy is the denial of deity. In fact, it is the Christian God the one that your design is centered against.

It is also telling that atheists come to a religious forum and spend so much time trying to share their agenda when the purpose and intent of the forum is completely the opposite. Just interesting.

I don't cut anyone down. I'm a convert to this church. Some atheists openly oppose religion.. but your comments are similar to one saying that all Christians do the same. They don't. There are evangelicals who attempt to force their agendas on people.. and atheists who do not as well.

Atheist philosophy is not the denial of deity.. it's the lack of a belief in deity. Ever been to 'atheist' forums before? Christians pop in there as well.. to discuss, debate, and hone intellectual skills.

Everyone should recognize the rules of logic.. that is my stance. This is why I want people of all religions to admit that (logically speaking) atheism is more likely to be correct. Just because something is more likely does not make it fact. In fact.. my stance would be classed as atheism.. I do not believe in the supernatural one bit. I do not believe in a supernatural deity. I simply claim belief in a father.

I have additional information, irrefutable facts, unequivocal and unbending personal revelation and evidence that indeed God is real, that He lives, that He cares and answers my prayers.

In all fairness.. they are not falsifiable (as you said irrefutable, which means nothing here). They cannot be measured or predicted. It's proof enough for you.. but if it were that easy we would all believe the same thing. I think the typical response to that type of statement is.. so did the pagans, wiccans, and scientologists.

I'm glad you have a testimony like this. It's excellent.. and it can definitely serve a positive purpose.

Edited June 2, 2009 by bmy-

[Islander]

I don't cut anyone down. I'm a conver to this church. Some atheists openly oppose religion.. but your comments are similar to one saying that all Christians do the same. They don't. There are evangelicals who attempt to force their agendas on people.. and atheists who do not as well.

Atheist philosophy is not the denial of deity.. it's the lack of a belief in deity. Ever been to 'atheist' forums before? Christians pop in there as well.. to discuss, debate, and hone intellectual skills.

I'm glad you have a testimony like this. It's excellent.. and it can definitely serve a positive purpose.

I think we got the wiring crossed. I was responding and quoted Koizito in my response.

But in general, that s why the exchange with atheists as well as certain evangelicals is a royal waste. They arrive (to forums like thins one, mind you) their mind made up and argument ready without an ounce of deference for the opposing view.

They (some atheist)e) may say that they just do not believe in deity. If that is all they did it would be fine. But they actively oppose and antagonize with Christians constantly. Agreed, not all but the opposition (legal and otherwise) is consistent and tangible. Have you ever seen the ACLU or atheist groups protesting the curriculum at Islamic private schools in Michigan, for example? Or religious celebrations of any other kind except Christian's? Perhaps I failed to make my point explicit. It may not be all, it may be even a minority but the impact is the same.

They ascribe to a belief system divergent from mine. That is fine. To argue and oppose mine with no other evidence than the absence of evidence is just as intangible as my own evidence is to them to the contrary. So that is why I agreed to disagree.

[bmy-]

I think we got the wiring crossed. I was responding and quoted Koizito in my response.

But in general, that s why the exchange with atheists as well as certain evangelicals is a royal waste. They arrive (to forums like thins one, mind you) their mind made up and argument ready without an ounce of deference for the opposing view.

They (some atheist)e) may say that they just do not believe in deity. If that is all they did it would be fine. But they actively oppose and antagonize with Christians constantly. Agreed, not all but the opposition (legal and otherwise) is consistent and tangible. Have you ever seen the ACLU or atheist groups protesting the curriculum at Islamic private schools in Michigan, for example? Or religious celebrations of any other kind except Christian's? Perhaps I failed to make my point explicit. It may not be all, it may be even a minority but the impact is the same.

They ascribe to a belief system divergent from mine. That is fine. To argue and oppose mine with no other evidence than the absence of evidence is just as intangible as my own evidence is to them to the contrary. So that is why I agreed to disagree.

Crystal clear now

[Misshalfway]

This is my view as well. It's why I struggle to 'have faith'. This does not mean that faith is bad.. simply that reason is better.

This is an interesting statement. And I respect your position, but I think it shows lack of understanding.

Reason doesn't turn water to wine or help a human walk on water. Reason doesn't help one discover new truth. Faith on the other hand is a principle of power. Faith without forward motion, is simply and flatly belief -- something that is inherently stagnant.

I find that atheist's often misunderstand faith and therefore dismiss it as a weaker position than reason or logic. I find that this perspective, while compelling and easy to sympathize with, is rather short sighted.

Exercizing faith does not suspend ones use of human faculties. It, in fact, balances all of them in the most powerful of configurations. I find, on the other hand, that relying ONLY upon one or two of our human abilities is rather limiting.......and produces good but limited results.

I think that your statement shows that you only know how to stay on the spiritual safe side. Peter never would have gotten anywhere, or gained valuable knowledge had he stayed in the boat!

Edited June 3, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Islander]

This is my view as well. It's why I struggle to 'have faith'. This does not mean that faith is bad.. simply that reason is better.

I am sadden that you feel that way. There is ample evidence that what you call "reason", given enough time and with the help of the adversary of course, will likely lead you away from God's Kingdom for what He demands and requires as a prerequisite to sharing His power and blessings is FAITH.

Solomon forsook God for other forbidden things. I Kings 11:1; reports that Solomon loved many strange women, from God forbidden nations, who eventually turned his heart away from his God. Solomon allowed his wives to turn his heart towards other gods. See I Kings 11:4. He began to worship Chemosh, Molech and other god's. (I Kings 11:7)

Solomon served other gods by building high places, burning incense and offering sacrifices to those gods. (I Kings 11:7,8)

His line of reasoning was always the same. Peace and trade are worthwhile pursuits. Alliances thru shared (uniform) beliefs/religion are always better and long lasting. Perhaps there are other gods and they do service those who worship them. I do not want to offend the other gods. Let people do as they will and there is no harm for they will be happy. Ironic that Solomon, one of, if not the wisest man in the history of mankind was a failure as far as faith and obedience was concerned.

Some brief research will unquestionably lead you realize that ALL those that have left the Church reached a point where they thought themselves wiser, more enlightened and insightful than those called and appointed by God to lead His Church and His people.

That your faith falters, that you hope is weak, that your belief and confidence in the revelation of the latter days is shaken? Do not despair. But fast, pray and search the word and revelation of God until your faith becomes as a mountain. There is no magic or trick. Just do it.

[Koizito]

I find this funny... If I said I was the second Jesus, would you follow my blindly? Of course not, you probably would demand proof of what I was saying... And yet you don't demand proof from anything that is written in some books...

[Misshalfway]

I find this funny... If I said I was the second Jesus, would you follow my blindly? Of course not, you probably would demand proof of what I was saying... And yet you don't demand proof from anything that is written in some books...

Who says we don't demand proof?

It sounds to me like you are assuming that faith is blind. In my opinion, it is through faith, and the fruits of exercising faith, that one really starts to see things as they really are. But I suppose this isn't the kind of perspective one can gain thru debate. It is gained one person at a time, one experience at a time.

So....the most any of us can do really is to share our perspectives and invite. As I look at my life and everything that has happened, I might have easily become an atheist. But then there is all that spiritual proof in my life that I simply can't deny. I suppose I am a failed apostate.

[Koizito]

I am using the most common definition for faith... If you have another, tell me which is it...

[bmy-]

This is an interesting statement. And I respect your position, but I think it shows lack of understanding.

Reason doesn't turn water to wine or help a human walk on water. Reason doesn't help one discover new truth. Faith on the other hand is a principle of power. Faith without forward motion, is simply and flatly belief -- something that is inherently stagnant.

I find that atheist's often misunderstand faith and therefore dismiss it as a weaker position than reason or logic. I find that this perspective, while compelling and easy to sympathize with, is rather short sighted.

Exercizing faith does not suspend ones use of human faculties. It, in fact, balances all of them in the most powerful of configurations. I find, on the other hand, that relying ONLY upon one or two of our human abilities is rather limiting.......and produces good but limited results.

I think that your statement shows that you only know how to stay on the spiritual safe side. Peter never would have gotten anywhere, or gained valuable knowledge had he stayed in the boat!

I know it's a difficult statement.. and quite honestly.. online is the only place I voice it. I'd tell my bishop.. but that's about it. I'd rather people not look at me funny. I love this forum because very few people are judgmental.

My definition of faith.. I think is important. We can't talk on the subject without defining it. I view faith as .. a belief in something without proof. That proof may or may not be measurable. Faith is more than claiming a belief or claiming to follow a certain theology (which I do).. it's believing in something regardless of contrary evidence.. and believing it to your core. Faith and doubt cannot coexist -in my opinion- and that's where my problem lies. What do you think?

I am sadden that you feel that way. There is ample evidence that what you call "reason", given enough time and with the help of the adversary of course, will likely lead you away from God's Kingdom for what He demands and requires as a prerequisite to sharing His power and blessings is FAITH.

That's a pretty heavy statement.. I disagree. I feel that reason will lead to truth.. wherever that truth may lie. That's far more important to me than faith. I'd rather have the truth and be unhappy.. than settle for ignorance and be happy. Reason is the best tool I have to discover truth..

I would love to have faith. It's just not that simple. I can't choose to have faith.. or I would have done so. So for now.. I just align myself with the right principles, surround myself with the right people, practice what i've been taught (as oft as possible), and hope for the best.

Some brief research will unquestionably lead you realize that ALL those that have left the Church reached a point where they thought themselves wiser, more enlightened and insightful than those called and appointed by God to lead His Church and His people.

That your faith falters, that you hope is weak, that your belief and confidence in the revelation of the latter days is shaken? Do not despair. But fast, pray and search the word and revelation of God until your faith becomes as a mountain. There is no magic or trick. Just do it.

I haven't left the Church nor do I have plans to. Some brief research will also lead you to realize that those IN the Church think themselves wiser, more enlightened, and insightful than those outside of the Church. I see little difference in the degrees of elitism. If anything.. I would think that that those who are members of the Church on average feel more elite.

I've been working on faith for as long as I can remember. I've prayed, fasted, studied, and everything under the sun to try to work on it.. but in the end.. i'm always talking to myself. That doesn't stop me from trying though.. i've got reasons to continue.

[rameumptom]

Paul stated that faith is "evidence" of things not seen. We believe our faith must be based upon evidence. Much of that evidence has to do with spiritual experiences, such as Alma describes in chapter 32.

However, we also see physical witnesses. There were at lesat 13 witnesses to the plates from which was translated the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith, Three Witnesses, Eight Witnesses, and one of the Whitmer sisters).

Joseph Smith had others with him during many of the visions and miracles. Oliver Cowdery saw John the Baptist, ancient apostles and prophets, and Jesus Christ with Joseph Smith. Sidney Rigdon saw Christ with Joseph Smith. Hundreds of Mormons saw angels, spoke in tongues, etc., during the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, just as Joseph Smith said they would.

We find evidences for the Book of Mormon frequently. Over 40 previously unknown names in the BoM are now known to be correct. Locations in the Arabian peninsula that were previously unknown have been found (like Nahom, and Bountiful). Various other evidences mocked in Joseph's day and for a century after him are now found to be correct. A name in the Book of Moses, connected with Enoch, was found in the Dead Sea Scroll's version of Enoch.

These evidences give affirmation to our faith, which is primarily based upon a spiritual witness.

[Koizito]

I know it's a difficult statement.. and quite honestly.. online is the only place I voice it. I'd tell my bishop.. but that's about it. I'd rather people not look at me funny. I love this forum because very few people are judgmental.

My definition of faith.. I think is important. We can't talk on the subject without defining it. I view faith as .. a belief in something without proof. That proof may or may not be measurable. Faith is more than claiming a belief or claiming to follow a certain theology (which I do).. it's believing in something regardless of contrary evidence.. and believing it to your core. Faith and doubt cannot coexist -in my opinion- and that's where my problem lies. What do you think?

That's a pretty heavy statement.. I disagree. I feel that reason will lead to truth.. wherever that truth may lie. That's far more important to me than faith. I'd rather have the truth and be unhappy.. than settle for ignorance and be happy. Reason is the best tool I have to discover truth..

I would love to have faith. It's just not that simple. I can't choose to have faith.. or I would have done so. So for now.. I just align myself with the right principles, surround myself with the right people, practice what i've been taught (as oft as possible), and hope for the best.

I haven't left the Church nor do I have plans to. Some brief research will also lead you to realize that those IN the Church think themselves wiser, more enlightened, and insightful than those outside of the Church. I see little difference in the degrees of elitism. If anything.. I would think that that those who are members of the Church on average feel more elite.

I've been working on faith for as long as I can remember. I've prayed, fasted, studied, and everything under the sun to try to work on it.. but in the end.. i'm always talking to myself. That doesn't stop me from trying though.. i've got reasons to continue.

I have to be honest with you, your opinion is kind of a paradox... You say you prefer to be unhappy and know the truth, and for that you need reason, but after that you say you would love to have faith... I may not be understanding your perspective but I think that's contradictory...

You also have some of the reasons that made me think a little more about faith and religion... When I was a child, people always told me to pray and god would answer... But it was always a monologue... I remeber I often thought "what am I doing wrong? Maybe I don't know how to pray..." and things like that... Now I know what was wrong: my CBW (christian brain wash) didn't work!

[bmy-]

I have to be honest with you, your opinion is kind of a paradox... You say you prefer to be unhappy and know the truth, and for that you need reason, but after that you say you would love to have faith... I may not be understanding your perspective but I think that's contradictory...

You also have some of the reasons that made me think a little more about faith and religion... When I was a child, people always told me to pray and god would answer... But it was always a monologue... I remeber I often thought "what am I doing wrong? Maybe I don't know how to pray..." and things like that... Now I know what was wrong: my CBW (christian brain wash) didn't work!

I think it's just the "I prefer it because it's what I have".. or perhaps it's the "I would love for faith and reason to co-exist inside of me".

Sorry if it was confusing.. I re-read it.. and yes, it made no sense whatsoever. I have faith people can figure it out though

[Islander]

I think it's just the "I prefer it because it's what I have".. or perhaps it's the "I would love for faith and reason to co-exist inside of me".

Sorry if it was confusing.. I re-read it.. and yes, it made no sense whatsoever. I have faith people can figure it out though

Einstein stated once: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

I suggest that you must start by questioning your motivation. At the heart of uncertainty and doubt lives fear. You have to really first acknowledge and later examine the nature of your fears. Until you are free from fear you could start moving into the exploratory process that will lead you to grow your faith. But you must seek to receive revelation, insight and awareness (we cal that intuition, to sense or know before we have actual evidence) of the purpose of God for your life rather than trying to reach the truth through a mathematical, rational process. No offense my brother, but none of us is that smart. God does the impossible (according to our puny minds) because He KNOWS how to do it. One day you will know, also. He has promised us that.

I equate your current situation to somebody who is on the verge of developing viral symptoms. The organism/body is already infected but your immune system is fighting it. So you feel queasy, neither sick not well. You can sense that something is amiss, not quite the way it supposed to but you can't put your finger on it.

I think I mentioned this before; you have to act "as if." You have to kill the air time you afford to the negative thought process, you have to push the doubt out of your mind. A random thought is like a bird that can land on our head while you are sitting in the park. But you don't have to let it make a nest on you.

Faith defies reason. A miracle is just the impossible that becomes reality. Some times we will have rational explanations for such events, others we will not. As we grow up we move from the "why" and into the "what." Why and the mechanics of certain events are not as important as what to do about then and how to act. The truth and essence of what goes on around us will be revealed in due time. Humility encompasses our willingness to act as if we understood until we do.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Islander

[Misshalfway]

BMY.......You are honest and I love that. It sounds to me like you are in process.....(like the rest of us :)).... and it is absolutely OK to be in progress. If I understand Alma 32 correctly, faith is absolutely a process that I am not sure has an end.

I am using the most common definition for faith... If you have another, tell me which is it...

Hi Koizito, Sorry I haven't gotten back to this thread in a while to answer this question. I can't assume what your understanding of faith is, but I hope this explanation is somewhat helpful.

I think my definitions of faith come from lots of places, but first and foremost they come from Christian scripture so I think maybe I will simply start there. In Hebrews 11:1, Paul describes faith as "...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...". I find it interesting that he uses the words "substance" and "evidence". I was just reading about how this substance comes as reassurance and how there is evidence that can be revealed to ones mind/heart/spirit before something may come to pass. I suppose it is a choice as to whether one receives these assurances. Alma 32 (BofM) tells us that we must "awake and arouse our faculties" in order to experiment with faith. I think that is interesting too. This is not an admonition to close ones eyes or to suspend ones common sense. This is actually a process that invigorates all of those human processes to something more powerful than reason or human ability alone. It is a way to combine human ability with something greater. That is why Islander is right. Faith does defy reason. All doubt, as was said before, comes from fear. Fear is debilitating. Faith is the opposite. It is like a putting a V8 engine on ones compacities.

Faith is a principle of action. In simple terms, it is the walking out of the light and into the dark and hoping/believing that the light will illuminate the way after the step is taken. It takes discipline to stay the course in those tenuous moments before the light comes, as fear and doubt tempt us to turn back.

I think this principle is especially important when we think about obtaining knowledge concerning the universe and its spectrums of big and small. We teach in our church that we obtain knowledge thru study, but ALSO through faith. I think this is where the important James scripture can be understood -- "Faith without works is dead." One must move forward without perfect assurance for real light and knowledge to come to them. I don't know why it is this way, but I have seen the power of this path in my life. And now that I have practiced it for a long while now, I know trust it above other known ways to obtain information and knowledge. I also find that I come to the best outcomes this way....even in the simplest parts of my life.

I think my definition of faith also incorporates ability. I wish I could find the quote, but I believe that the earth and everything in it and around it was created by faith. It is clear also that God gives powers to the faithful. Power to do whatever is expedient to the will of God, of course. If one deviates from his will, then the power is suspended.

I think it is also important that one MUST put their faith into truth, otherwise such efforts are erroneous.

BTW Islander-- BRILLIANT quote. So appropriate.