Before us...

[Koizito]

So, I am an atheist, but I am curious about this religion... Therefore, I am trying to know a little more about it...

What I want to know is this: I heard that mormons believe in a diferent origin for mankind than the one that appears in the bible, even though the bible makes part of your scriptures... If this is true, then I want to know how can this be... If it isn't, do you mind telling me which one do you believe in and, if it is diferent from the one in the bible, then how do you explain the origin of mankind?

Thanks for your patience...

Peace...

[ztodd]

We believe the story of Adam and Eve from the Bible is true. We also have an even greater understanding of the creation and the origin of man and woman on the earth, because of modern day revelation. Modern day revelation means we have prophets who receive revelation from the Lord for us in our day, just like the prophets in the bible did in their day.

You can find out more here -

Agency and the Fall of Adam and Eve

or here -

LDS.org - Topic Definition - Creation

[the Ogre]

So, I am an atheist, but I am curious about this religion... Therefore, I am trying to know a little more about it...

What I want to know is this: I heard that mormons believe in a diferent origin for mankind than the one that appears in the bible, even though the bible makes part of your scriptures... If this is true, then I want to know how can this be... If it isn't, do you mind telling me which one do you believe in and, if it is diferent from the one in the bible, then how do you explain the origin of mankind?

Thanks for your patience...

Peace...

Koizito:

Are you asking if we, as Latter-day Saints, accept evolution? If you are, then I would say it is very much a personal decision. There isn't a formal position issued by the church on it (be warned: there are quibble mice out and about). I would say that there are a great many members who are comfortable with evolution, after all G-d does not say how H- created the cosmos. H- only mentions in the OT, Abraham, and Moses that H- did.

There are members who are not comfortable with evolution. I'm not sure why, but it might be because some evolutionists have used this theory as an excuse to oppose religion.

I do not think evolution and the Genesis account are mutually exclusive. I still do not think evolution has been 100% explored, but then it is a scientific theory that is still quite contentious and controversial amongst the scientific community. Science believes in it, but does not agree yet on how life came about. Science still can not explain how the earth was created, how life was created on the earth or in space, how life creates itself independent of other life, or how we as humans evolved into intelligent, reasoning animals. Because of the amount of doubt on the topic, I am free to be comfortable with both noting the exact process of creation is still unknown to both science and religion. I am also free to be curious, question, and have doubts (particularly about the science aspects of creation as envisioned by imperfect humans).

Welcome to LDS.net. I hope you post more and often.

Aaron the Ogre

[ztodd]

Hmm, why did you think he was asking about evolution? We don' teach anything about evolution in the church.

[the Ogre]

Hmm, why did you think he was asking about evolution? We don' teach anything about evolution in the church.

We do not teach for it or against it. I mentioned there is no stated position on it by the church, however I think evolution is an aspect of his question that many atheists question about religion in general: "What is the role of science in your faith?"

[Koizito]

Koizito:

Are you asking if we, as Latter-day Saints, accept evolution? If you are, then I would say it is very much a personal decision. There isn't a formal position issued by the church on it (be warned: there are quibble mice out and about). I would say that there are a great many members who are comfortable with evolution, after all G-d does not say how H- created the cosmos. H- only mentions in the OT, Abraham, and Moses that H- did.

There are members who are not comfortable with evolution. I'm not sure why, but it might be because some evolutionists have used this theory as an excuse to oppose religion.

I do not think evolution and the Genesis account are mutually exclusive. I still do not think evolution has been 100% explored, but then it is a scientific theory that is still quite contentious and controversial amongst the scientific community. Science believes in it, but does not agree yet on how life came about. Science still can not explain how the earth was created, how life was created on the earth or in space, how life creates itself independent of other life, or how we as humans evolved into intelligent, reasoning animals. Because of the amount of doubt on the topic, I am free to be comfortable with both noting the exact process of creation is still unknown to both science and religion. I am also free to be curious, question, and have doubts (particularly about the science aspects of creation as envisioned by imperfect humans).

Welcome to LDS.net. I hope you post more and often.

Aaron the Ogre

No I wasn't refering to evolution...I heard a very diferent version of mankind's creation that according to some people was the mormon version... Actually I disagree with you but that's for another topic...

BTW why didn't you write God but G-d instead? And H- instead of He?

@ ztodd: Even though I find it hard to believe just in other people's words alone ( I am an atheist for some reason right? ), thanks for those links and brief explanation ztodd :)

[the Ogre]

No I wasn't refering to evolution...I heard a very diferent version of mankind's creation that according to some people was the mormon version... Actually I disagree with you but that's for another topic...

Okay, I can't answer you about what other people said. There are so many of those other people. I can tell you we do have a far more detailed belief in the preexistence and life before the creation than many other religions and yet it still requires faith that it was G-d who did the creating.

BTW why didn't you write God but G-d instead? And H- instead of He?

Out of respect.

[the Ogre]

@ ztodd: Even though I find it hard to believe just in other people's words alone ( I am an atheist for some reason right? ), thanks for those links and brief explanation ztodd

I know you addressed this to Z, I want to point out it is not in a human or human-conception of G-d that you should believe in, it is G-d H-mself.

If I were Z, I do not think he would be comfortable with you taking his word or having faith in him. This is the same for every leader of the LDS church. I think they would rather you have faith in G-d rather than in another person.

[ztodd]

No I wasn't refering to evolution...I heard a very diferent version of mankind's creation that according to some people was the mormon version... Actually I disagree with you but that's for another topic...

BTW why didn't you write God but G-d instead? And H- instead of He?

@ ztodd: Even though I find it hard to believe just in other people's words alone ( I am an atheist for some reason right? ), thanks for those links and brief explanation ztodd :)

No problem - I don't expect you to just believe my words or anyone else's. The only way to come to believe and to know that God exists is by having personal spiritual experiences with Him. This can be achieved by the power of the Holy Ghost. This passage gives a promise of how you can know the Book of Mormon is true, and also how you can know the truth of all things -

From Moroni 10 -

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

[bmy-]

We believe the story of Adam and Eve from the Bible is true. We also have an even greater understanding of the creation and the origin of man and woman on the earth, because of modern day revelation. Modern day revelation means we have prophets who receive revelation from the Lord for us in our day, just like the prophets in the bible did in their day.

You can find out more here -

Agency and the Fall of Adam and Eve

or here -

LDS.org - Topic Definition - Creation

To be clear.. word for word we do not subscribe to the Adam/Eve story as true. We do not believe Eve came from his rib for example.

Mormons do not believe in creation ex nihilo either. If you want to discuss any deeper issues.. feel free to PM me. Certain things cannot be discussed in these public areas.. but I hold no punches in private :)

Edited May 26, 2009 by bmy-

[bytebear]

To be clear.. word for word we do not subscribe to the Adam/Eve story as true. We do not believe Eve came from his rib for example.

We don't? I think many Mormons do, and that Adam was created literally from the dust of the Earth. But, Mormonism also believes in continuing revelation, and Mormons embrace science. But, most Mormons are open to new spiritual revelation as well as new science suplanting the ideas and beliefs of the past. Scientific understanding will expand and spiritual understanding will expand, and eventually, they will converge into a pure knowlege of all things.

To understand further the LDS view of Adam and Eve and the creation, I would read the Book of Moses found in the Pearl of Great Price (see scriptures.lds.org)

[Aesa]

There are members who are not comfortable with evolution.

I'd say it's probably because the Bible makes clear that man was created as that - man.

Evolutionary theory does not agree with such a thesis at all.

[bmy-]

We don't? I think many Mormons do, and that Adam was created literally from the dust of the Earth. But, Mormonism also believes in continuing revelation, and Mormons embrace science. But, most Mormons are open to new spiritual revelation as well as new science suplanting the ideas and beliefs of the past. Scientific understanding will expand and spiritual understanding will expand, and eventually, they will converge into a pure knowlege of all things.

To understand further the LDS view of Adam and Eve and the creation, I would read the Book of Moses found in the Pearl of Great Price (see scriptures.lds.org)

I've read it. There's a few issues though.. the main one being that the creation story in the temple and the one in our holy books take place in a different order. That would point to it not being a factual record of events. Or perhaps one could say that one of the two is the 'spiritual creation' and the other is 'physical'.. but my point still stands (that one ignores science and the other goes with current theory).

The largest (imo) is that Adam is Michael the Archangel. He is the Ancient of Days. He was there at the organization of the world.. and he was not there in 'spirit'.. he was there in flesh and bone. He was Michael before he was Adam.. and he was Michael after also.

In summary:

1) Creation story in holy books is not speaking of a physical creation.

2) Adam is Michael the Archangel and the "Ancient of Days". He was at the organization of this world with a very real body of flesh and bone.

3) If Michael existed during (and consequently before) the creation of the world.. he could not have been created from dust.

Edited May 26, 2009 by bmy-

[rameumptom]

While we believe in Adam and Eve, we also realize that parts of the Bible are based upon myths and legends that were passed down orally from generation to generation.

We believe in an ancient earth and universe. And while we do not necessarily know how evolution fully enters into the picture, or how Adam and Eve figure fully into it, we know that the Lord will someday reveal the full story to us.

Joseph Smith taught the earth was created from former earths/creations. He believed there were creation/destruction cycles that naturally occurred, which God uses to bring about his work. Brigham Young speculated that Adam and Eve were brought here from another creation. Other LDS have taken such concepts and suggested that our world has gone through several Creation/Destruction cycles (250M years ago, 65M years ago, 10,000 years ago with the last Ice Age). In each event, massive destruction opened the way for new lifeforms to govern the earth. It may very well be that the last Ice Age opened the way for modern humans (and Adam and Eve).

While some LDS believe that Adam and Eve were literally the first man and woman on earth, more and more are considering the concept that they were the adoptive head of the mortal family, just as through Abraham later generations would be blessed in his seed, and as Paul talked of the adoption into Israel. LDS focus much on spiritual adoptions, as we believe we are adopted into specific tribes of Israel, and through the priesthood can become the "sons of Aaron and of Moses, and the seed of Abraham" (D&C 84:33-34).

Whether God used evolution to create mankind or not, we do not know. For me, it is rather immaterial at this point. The important issue has to do with core doctrines of salvation.

[Misshalfway]

I am trying to decide exactly what you were told about our beliefs. I wonder if it might be that we believe that every human who will ever walk this planet are the literal children of God and that we were created as spirits in a pre-earth realm before the earth was created. We believe that a veil is drawn over our memories concerning that life. But we believe that we lived in the presence of God and that we were taught and prepared to come to earth and get a physical body and then enjoy an experience here. After death, we return to that God who gave us life - spiritual life and physical. Such a belief is consistent with the bible and its references to a war in heaven and the celebrations of those who were there to witness it. But as you probably know, this isn't something that most of the Christian world understands to be true. I believe some think that we are only creations of God (not literally children) and that birth was the beginning of our existence.

[Koizito]

I am trying to decide exactly what you were told about our beliefs. I wonder if it might be that we believe that every human who will ever walk this planet are the literal children of God and that we were created as spirits in a pre-earth realm before the earth was created. We believe that a veil is drawn over our memories concerning that life. But we believe that we lived in the presence of God and that we were taught and prepared to come to earth and get a physical body and then enjoy an experience here. After death, we return to that God who gave us life - spiritual life and physical. Such a belief is consistent with the bible and its references to a war in heaven and the celebrations of those who were there to witness it. But as you probably know, this isn't something that most of the Christian world understands to be true. I believe some think that we are only creations of God (not literally children) and that birth was the beginning of our existence.

Even I don't know that... I just remember it was quite diferent from the christian doctrine...

Also, I see many of you have diferent views about the creation of the universe, the world, mankind, etc. That is one aspect of religion in general that doesn't fit in my head: shouldn't you be in diferent religious groups since your views about god and its relation to the universe are diferent?

I am sorry about so many questions, and thank you for your patience once again...

Edited May 26, 2009 by Koizito

[bmy-]

Even I don't know that... I just remember it was quite diferent from the christian doctrine...

Also, I see many of you have diferent views about the creation of the universe, the world, mankind, etc. That is one aspect of religion in general that doesn't fit in my head: shouldn't you be in diferent religious groups since your views about god and its relation to the universe are diferent?

I am sorry about so many questions, and thank you for your patience once again...

We have different views.. but that's largely due to people not wanting to dig. Some are perfectly content taking what is given to them. We teach 'milk before meat' and some never truly get to the meatier doctrines.

The 'core' of our religion specifically is centered around eternal progression. That's what seperates us from the monotheistic Christianity. We're henotheists. I doubt the majority of the Church realizes that.

[Islander]

Even I don't know that... I just remember it was quite diferent from the christian doctrine...

Also, I see many of you have diferent views about the creation of the universe, the world, mankind, etc. That is one aspect of religion in general that doesn't fit in my head: shouldn't you be in diferent religious groups since your views about god and its relation to the universe are diferent?

I am sorry about so many questions, and thank you for your patience once again...

The doctrine is one and clear. PEOPLE develop ideas about and interpretations of it that vary when they do not listen to the prophets.

But by the same token, that are some Christians that are pro-abortion and others pro-life. Some favor the death penalty and some don't. Some cohabit before marriage but some don't. They all fit inside the Catholic church, for example.

[the Ogre]

Even I don't know that... I just remember it was quite diferent from the christian doctrine...

Also, I see many of you have diferent views about the creation of the universe, the world, mankind, etc. That is one aspect of religion in general that doesn't fit in my head: shouldn't you be in diferent religious groups since your views about god and its relation to the universe are diferent?

I am sorry about so many questions, and thank you for your patience once again...

For me, it is not all that important. The creation of the earth, the Adam and Eve story/mythology, and the creation methodology for either are not important. I do not speculate on it and avoid those who do like the plague.

Creation has nothing to do with salvation as interesting as it is and as such is not a much discussed doctrinal issue by the church leadership. Because the leadership does not discuss it (because it is not that important), many members feel free to form their own theories and methodology-matrixes.

I prefer to allow science to work it out. I think they are more than likely on the right track anyway.

[Koizito]

@ 3 previous posters: But religion is about trying to explain how the universe works, how it came to existence, etc. If various people have diferent points of views, and therefore diferent explanations, they should belong to diferent lobbies, like people who are pro-gay marriage belong to one group of people and the others to another group... I think that at least they should belong to diferent sub-groups...

And also this would make most beliefs incorrect...

[Misshalfway]

Even I don't know that... I just remember it was quite diferent from the christian doctrine...

Also, I see many of you have diferent views about the creation of the universe, the world, mankind, etc. That is one aspect of religion in general that doesn't fit in my head: shouldn't you be in diferent religious groups since your views about god and its relation to the universe are diferent?

I am sorry about so many questions, and thank you for your patience once again...

Don't apologize for asking questions. In fact, that is one principle that is crucial to LDS teachings. I mean the entire mormon movement started off with a boy who asked a question.:)

If your desire is to understand mormon doctrine alone, it might be good to visit LDS.org and do some searches on the subject of creation. If your desire is rather to compare and contrast the different Christian groups, then perhaps that might help me answer your questions better.

I think that it would be fair to say that if beliefs are different, then there would be natural divisions amongst all the groups. That is certainly the way history has played out. But we (LDS) aren't so concerned with being different or not being "accepted" into the Christianity club. It is truth we seek and holy prophets we follow. It matters not that we are different. In fact, I think the differences are absolutely crucial when searching for truth.

We (LDS) believe in Adam and Eve. We believe in the Fall of Adam, but we do understand those events differently than mainstream Christianity. We do believe that God the Father (thru His son Jesus Christ) created this earth and everything in it and around it and that it took 6 days to accomplish it. We don't however believe that a "day" to God is the same thing as a day to us. We see it more like 6 creative periods....meaning that one day could be a very long time.

The rest.....and I mean all the questions about how, what, if, etc etc is left for us to think about. We believe God has revealed a portion of the truth about these subjects but not all. And we humans are left to chew on it until more truth on the subject of creation is revealed. So, what you see on this thread is some of that chewing. Some guesses may even be very educated ones but may not be exactly what we teach in Sunday School because what we teach is only the sure stuff that has been revealed thru scripture and by prophets words.

Does that help a bit? Btw, what exactly about creation are you concerned with? Creation of humans or the earth? It might help us to help you if you explained your thinking a little more.

[Hemidakota]

So, I am an atheist, but I am curious about this religion... Therefore, I am trying to know a little more about it...

What I want to know is this: I heard that mormons believe in a diferent origin for mankind than the one that appears in the bible, even though the bible makes part of your scriptures... If this is true, then I want to know how can this be... If it isn't, do you mind telling me which one do you believe in and, if it is diferent from the one in the bible, then how do you explain the origin of mankind?

Thanks for your patience...

Peace...

Remember, as long there is a man and woman on any earth in the universe, there was someone before them in the same likeness....and no. There was no pre-admanites or caveman prior to this event.

[the Ogre]

@ 3 previous posters: But religion is about trying to explain how the universe works, how it came to existence, etc. If various people have diferent points of views, and therefore diferent explanations, they should belong to diferent lobbies, like people who are pro-gay marriage belong to one group of people and the others to another group... I think that at least they should belong to diferent sub-groups...

And also this would make most beliefs incorrect...

I'm sorry, but this is overly reductionistic. Who is to say what a religion should or should not believe in? Each religion has its own set of beliefs. Latter-day Saints have their own different from others.

For example, the prop 8 issue. There are Latter-day Saints on both sides of the issue (though most are pro-prop 8). Being pro/con prop 8 has nothing to do with salvation. For a Latter-day Saint, we define the family (here), but there is no where in our doctrine that says we insist every person must live this way. Many individuals in the church do think everyone should live this way, but that is not founded on doctrine. Please note, regarding salvation as Latter-day Saints understand it marriage is between a man and a woman.

Do we insist every person believe the same way? No, of course not.

[Hemidakota]

Even I don't know that... I just remember it was quite diferent from the christian doctrine...

Also, I see many of you have diferent views about the creation of the universe, the world, mankind, etc. That is one aspect of religion in general that doesn't fit in my head: shouldn't you be in diferent religious groups since your views about god and its relation to the universe are diferent?

I am sorry about so many questions, and thank you for your patience once again...

It may be related in seeing it for yourself and write about your observation from what was shown to those who would make a case of speculation. Any dispensational prophet will have that opportunity for themselves to witness the creation what Moses and Abraham [but will not have the opportunity to write about prior to them] were shown.

[Misshalfway]

@ 3 previous posters: But religion is about trying to explain how the universe works, how it came to existence, etc.

I am not sure that religion is "about" trying to explain the universe and how it works. I definitely think that is part of it......I mean we as children of God need some reference points. I do think that God has given us what we need to know to get started. I don't think that He wants us to stop asking questions and in my view, I don't see that science and religion are that different. I think God understands all the laws of nature and the universe and I think he is the master scientist of all. But He is also a father and he is trying to raise his children by teaching them and even commanding them to live by certain laws. Sometimes he tells us why. Sometimes he allows us to grow by not giving us all the detailed answers. It's more about faith, and the truth that is revealed after ones faith is tested, more than it is about complete explanations. If you can understand for a minute the mind of a mormon, you would see also that God is waiting to reveal more about the universe and how it works. He has given a little more to our modern prophets, but that knowledge is linked to our obedience. Obedience unlocks the doors to such knowledge.

And also this would make most beliefs incorrect...

Yes. Exactly.