bytebear Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I think "correct doctrine" is a byproduct of the gospel, or rather of the living church. Prophets and apostles do deceminate truth, and that is a key role, but it is not the primary role of the Lord's church. The primary role is to grant authority to men so that they can fulfill the will of God on Earth. The primary purpose of that is to administer the ordinances of salvation required to return to God. If I were to start my own church, and teach the exact same things as the LDS Church, follow all the same practices, and even perform the same rituals, my church would still be false, because I have not been given authorty by God to perform these acts. Even if I speculate on the nature of the universe and my answers are more correct or complete than what we currently know, I am still a false prophet. An example is in the baptism of Jesus Christ. He surely knew more about God's will than John the Baptist, and John even balked at the request for baptism, feeling himself unworthy, but Jesus knew that even though he had a more sure knowledge, and even was more holy than John, John still held the correct authorty from God. So, Mormons are the true church, not because they know more, but because they have authority from God. This is His church. It was so when Peter led it. It was so when Moses led it. It was so when Joseph Smith led it. Did they all run their church's the same way? no, but they had authority from God to run it according to His will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aesa Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I don't see that science and religion are that different.I think they're very different in that one is generally baseless in terms of proving it's claims, whilst the other is all about proving it's claims.However, they do come from the same craving of humans: wanting to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koizito Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 If I were to start my own church, and teach the exact same things as the LDS Church, follow all the same practices, and even perform the same rituals, my church would still be false, because I have not been given authorty by God to perform these acts. Even if I speculate on the nature of the universe and my answers are more correct or complete than what we currently know, I am still a false prophet.But then how do you distinguish true prophets from false prophets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 But then how do you distinguish true prophets from false prophets?That is the million dollar question.First and foremost, we determine true ones from the false by and through the Holy Spirit of God and communications he sends to our hearts and minds. His job is primarily to teach us the truth of things....even all things. We must do our work first though. We must study and then pray with faith. For all faithful Latter-day Saints, the only reason we are in this church is because of the spiritual answers we have received. Once you feel the Spirit testify of truth, it is easy to know what course to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koizito Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 But what happens if I don't get that "testify of truth" before I die? Do I go to hell, even though it isn't my fault? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 But what happens if I don't get that "testify of truth" before I die? Do I go to hell, even though it isn't my fault?I don't think so, but then again Latter-day Saints don't exactly believe in "hell". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Even I don't know that... I just remember it was quite diferent from the christian doctrine...Also, I see many of you have diferent views about the creation of the universe, the world, mankind, etc. That is one aspect of religion in general that doesn't fit in my head: shouldn't you be in diferent religious groups since your views about god and its relation to the universe are diferent?I am sorry about so many questions, and thank you for your patience once again...Classifications are never easy. Some think we should be Christian, others not. Then again, if the original Christian churches that we now know as the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox are the true Christians, then perhaps Protestants and Evangelicals should not be called Christian, either.There are differences, because while we use the same Bible, the others also have a set of creeds which establish their doctrines. LDS, on the other hand, do not have creeds, but they believe in living prophets and apostles, as were had in Israel anciently, who guide us today.This does make us different. They are Traditional Christians. We are Restorationist Christians. But we are all still Christians.They have to figure out the Creation via only the Bible's words. We have modern prophets to help guide us through it, via the additional light and truth God has given them. Modern prophets have taught us about our premortal existence, our purpose here on earth, and what the next life is all about. Traditional Christians have less information at their disposal, and so have less guidance in these areas.But there are several key things that do unite us. We believe in God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer. We believe he will return again in glory for a 2nd coming, and redeem the world, creating a new Garden of Eden/paradisaical glory for 1000 years. Those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. Those who become Christ's complete enemy and will not worship him will be cast into Outer Darkness with the devil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I don't think so, but then again Latter-day Saints don't exactly believe in "hell".We DO believe in hell. Actually, we believe in two hells. Upon dying, our spirits enter into the Spirit World, where a portion is called "paradise" for the righteous, and the wicked will go to "hell" where they will pay for their sins until they've fully repented and chosen Christ. For those who refuse to ever repent and believe on Christ, they will join the Devil in the eternal hell, entitled Outer Darkness, where they will be out of the presence of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 We DO believe in hell. Actually, we believe in two hells. Upon dying, our spirits enter into the Spirit World, where a portion is called "paradise" for the righteous, and the wicked will go to "hell" where they will pay for their sins until they've fully repented and chosen Christ. For those who refuse to ever repent and believe on Christ, they will join the Devil in the eternal hell, entitled Outer Darkness, where they will be out of the presence of God.Okay, but neither of those fit the traditional definitions of hell (red-dudes with bifurcated-tails, horns, pitch-forks, and an affinity for charcoal or Dante's Infernal) and as such, they do not need/fit the appellation "hell". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koizito Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 We DO believe in hell. Actually, we believe in two hells. Upon dying, our spirits enter into the Spirit World, where a portion is called "paradise" for the righteous, and the wicked will go to "hell" where they will pay for their sins until they've fully repented and chosen Christ. For those who refuse to ever repent and believe on Christ, they will join the Devil in the eternal hell, entitled Outer Darkness, where they will be out of the presence of God.That's good news for me then... I mean, if Christ doesn't mind showing himself to me, at least, I wouldn't have any problem believing him... But praise him... I wouldn't praise even god himself... Don't get me wrong, if god shows himself to me and prove that it was him who created us, I would be thankful... But between that and praise goes a long way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) That's good news for me then... I mean, if Christ doesn't mind showing himself to me, at least, I wouldn't have any problem believing him... But praise him... I wouldn't praise even god himself... Don't get me wrong, if god shows himself to me and prove that it was him who created us, I would be thankful... But between that and praise goes a long way...Interestingly enough, I think eventually, before any final judgements by G-d can be made the existence of G-d will be obvious.Pessimism is hilarious. I'm glad there are those who are happy to self-define and reinforce a position of polar-opposition. Being so simple is easy and makes life livable: no huge concerns and the option to just say "no", not listen, and not care is always available, because it just isn't important to life and co-existence right now. The real fun though is to do so on a religious forum hoping the zealots, the deluded G-d-nuts, the guys who think faith in the unverifiable is somehow a viable intellectual position will pour out of the wood-work to attempt to cast the very intelligent in some type of state of embarrassment or some assignment to "hell".The real advantage to atheism is not believing in a cop-out like agnosticism, because who can argue with an undefinable argument.Whatever. You want to ask: okay. You want to mock our belief in G-d: okay. It is okay as long as our dirt rubs off, right? Thank goodness you wouldn't believe in proof, most of us wouldn't be able provide it anyway. None of us are G-d. We're just people. Edited May 27, 2009 by the Ogre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 That's good news for me then... I mean, if Christ doesn't mind showing himself to me, at least, I wouldn't have any problem believing him... But praise him... I wouldn't praise even god himself... Don't get me wrong, if god shows himself to me and prove that it was him who created us, I would be thankful... But between that and praise goes a long way...Thankfully.. I do not think he's after our praise. He's a father. He just wants respect and the chance to watch us grow, imo. A firm handshake and a wink is better than the bending of the knee.. in my eyes.I don't grovel.. nor will I. A wolfhound must be a wolfhound in the wolf's eyes even more than in his own, if he is to survive.-Lan Mandragoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Our gratitude [praises] of the FATHER for what HE does for us matures when we apply HIS will; a constant eternal spiral that increases as we continue on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Thankfully.. I do not think he's after our praise. He's a father. He just wants respect and the chance to watch us grow, imo. A firm handshake and a wink is better than the bending of the knee.. in my eyes.I don't grovel.. nor will I. A wolfhound must be a wolfhound in the wolf's eyes even more than in his own, if he is to survive.-Lan MandragoranExcept the part in the scriptures where it says "every knew shall bow"......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 That's good news for me then... I mean, if Christ doesn't mind showing himself to me, at least, I wouldn't have any problem believing him... But praise him... I wouldn't praise even god himself... Don't get me wrong, if god shows himself to me and prove that it was him who created us, I would be thankful... But between that and praise goes a long way...Well, I think he does "prove" truth to us but I my experience is that it comes in different ways than perhaps we want. It is opening our eyes (some might call it our spiritual eyes) to see. And I think, at least in this earth life (don't know exactly how it all goes down in the spirit world), truth comes one bit at a time. And over time those bits blend into a nice understanding of the big picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Except the part in the scriptures where it says "every knew shall bow".........We're Christian.. it's our right to ignore this verse or I'll just interpret it to mean something else. (Cramps in my leg, can't bend?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koizito Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Well then, your god sure is reasonable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Well then, your god sure is reasonable...Oh c'mon Koz, if deity is merely a social-creation and you're here yakkin' with us, that makes any deity your deity, too. Own-up man. You like hangin' with us dirty ol' mormons cause you are one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 That's good news for me then... I mean, if Christ doesn't mind showing himself to me, at least, I wouldn't have any problem believing him... But praise him... I wouldn't praise even god himself... Don't get me wrong, if god shows himself to me and prove that it was him who created us, I would be thankful... But between that and praise goes a long way...You may want to change your mind. For those who have sinned, we have become subject to the devil. We are bound to him, and will suffer in hell until we truly believe, repent, forsake our sins, and "every knee bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord."Alma 36 explains what that hell is like, and then what was required for Alma's rescue:12 But I was racked with aeternal btorment, for my soul was charrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins. 13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was atormented with the bpains of hell; yea, I saw that I had crebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments. 14 Yea, and I had amurdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror. 15 Oh, thought I, that I acould be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my bdeeds. 16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the apains of a bdamned soul. 17 And it came to pass that as I was thus aracked with torment, while I was bharrowed up by the cmemory of my many sins, behold, I dremembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world. 18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, ahave mercy on me, who am bin the cgall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting dchains of edeath. 19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my apains bno more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more. 20 And oh, what ajoy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain! 21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy. 22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father aLehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and bpraising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there. 23 But behold, my limbs did receive their astrength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been bborn of God. 24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto arepentance; that I might bring them to btaste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be cborn of God, and be dfilled with the Holy Ghost. In such an instance, I'd think we all will gladly worship the One who saves us from such an interminable hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koizito Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 But even though I may knee before him, I would never feel like he deserves that... @ the Ogre: Just because I talk with married people, it doesn't mean I am married... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Just because I talk with married people, it doesn't mean I am married...But do you do so out of sympathy, friendship, common-cause, or arrogance?(as per your response to Ram: talk is cheap) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koizito Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) Curiosity would be more likely... At least in this situation... And I didn't understand what you meant with "talk is cheap"... Edited May 28, 2009 by Koizito Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Curiosity would be more likely... At least in this situation...Nothing wrong with that.And I didn't understand what you meant with "talk is cheap"...Your response (and everything you've said up the "curiosity" bit) has been pretty cliche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koizito Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Maybe, but even if the truth is a cliche, that doesn't make it less true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Maybe, but even if the truth is a cliche, that doesn't make it less true...It's not truth that's cliche, just how you are representing your version of it (so far everything you've said sounds like junior-college atheism . . . I want something new). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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