Satan

[hordak]

We have Satan's "Angles" perched on our shoulders?

.

If you take 1/3 cast out from heaven literally there would be at least 1 fallen angel for every 2 people.:mellow:

[skalenfehl]

And people wouldn't sin if Satan didn't tempt us?

Of course it is only conjecture, but we go back to my initial response about the necessity of good and evil. What small child is not submissive and willing to please a loving parent??? If we were to erase any evil influence from the word go, truly believe there would be no sin. This will be the case during the Millennium. With Christ in our company (assuming you and I make it) and Satan bound, we will have no desire to sin. Plain and simple. Again, this is my opinion.

[Robert_Mason]

Of course it is only conjecture, but we go back to my initial response about the necessity of good and evil. What small child is not submissive and willing to please a loving parent???

I always find it funny how easily people forget what children are really like. Sure, they're kind at times, and cheerful, and so on, but... Kids are vicious little monsters, and I'm only half-joking. Am I the only one who still remembers that kids are like the epitome of mob mentality? If you're different from the group, you're screwed.

Does nobody remember why it's insulting to be told that one is "acting like a child"?

If we were to erase any evil influence from the word go, truly believe there would be no sin. This will be the case during the Millennium. With Christ in our company (assuming you and I make it) and Satan bound, we will have no desire to sin. Plain and simple. Again, this is my opinion.

If Satan was necessary for sin, then who caused Satan to sin?

[skalenfehl]

Acting like a spoiled, selfish brat and being "submissive as a child" as put forth in scripture are two completely different things. I believe at one point, eons ago that Satan was as a small submissive child. Then he became a spoiled, selfish brat. Who caused Satan to sin? Very good question. I'm sure the answer lies beyond the veil.

[Robert_Mason]

Acting like a spoiled, selfish brat and being "submissive as a child" as put forth in scripture are two completely different things. I believe at one point, eons ago that Satan was as a small submissive child. Then he became a spoiled, selfish brat. Who caused Satan to sin? Very good question. I'm sure the answer lies beyond the veil.

It's not so much being a "spoiled, selfish brat" as it is "being a normal child." But I was mainly trying to be humorous, getting some fun out of a bit of technical error (similar to the "Satan's Angles" comment).

As for Satan, if you accept that Satan was tempted, did you need to accept that this tempter was either tempted as well, or was capable of sinning even without an outside influence. And if that tempter was tempted, well... You get The Idea, right?

It would seem that it would be an accurate statement that "Satan tempts us, as do the rest of the Fallen, but in our post-Eden state we are perfectly capable of sinning even without an outside influence."

[skalenfehl]

I understand the humorous bit. I'm actually enjoying this topic as it has caused me to really think. We only know of things this side of the veil. Clearly Adam and Eve understood the laws and chose to obey it until influenced by the serpent to disobey one of the laws. That is when their eyes were opened and understood the difference between good and evil. But clearly Eve sinned only after being tempted. That's the best clue that we have to discover the clear answer to your question.

[Dravin]

I always find it funny how easily people forget what children are really like. Sure, they're kind at times, and cheerful, and so on, but... Kids are vicious little monsters, and I'm only half-joking. Am I the only one who still remembers that kids are like the epitome of mob mentality? If you're different from the group, you're screwed.

Hey, there is a sample group! Children cannot be tempted, so do children behave in ways that would be considered sins if they were accountable?

Children are selfish, very early on, this actually has to be taught out of them as they grow up. They also have some other behaviors that would be considered sins if they were accountable. This would suggest to me, that sans Satan and moderating influences (being taught otherwise) kids being the carnal beings they are would sin once they became accountable. Of course the sample is tainted by being in a Satan influenced world.

I suppose we could take a group of babies and drop them off on a deserted island and air drop food and Nursebot 2000s to them, of course I'm sure there are some ethical considerations to take into account. :)

It would seem that it would be an accurate statement that "Satan tempts us, as do the rest of the Fallen, but in our post-Eden state we are perfectly capable of sinning even without an outside influence."

Seems reasonable to me. Of course we'll never know, at least not in this life.

[Robert_Mason]

Hey, there is a sample group! Children cannot be tempted, so do children behave in ways that would be considered sins if they were accountable?

Of course! How could I be so blind? Take a "You're a GEEEENIUUS!" point!

Children are selfish, very early on, this actually has to be taught out of them as they grow up. They also have some other behaviors that would be considered sins if they were accountable. This would suggest to me, that sans Satan and moderating influences (being taught otherwise) kids being the carnal beings they are would sin once they became accountable. Of course the sample is tainted by being in a Satan influenced world.

Well, technically speaking, how would they be influenced by Satan if they're at an age where they aren't affected by him?

And since when has Satan tainted the world itself?

I suppose we could take a group of babies and drop them off on a deserted island and air drop food and Nursebot 2000s to them, of course I'm sure there are some ethical considerations to take into account. :)

Ethics... It's for science!

Besides, what about those feral kids you always hear about? Oh... just urban legends?

But... Yes. Let's get to work designing the Nursebot 2000s. Hey, we could even have the Nursebot 2000s raise them in a loving, caring environment!

Wait... If they were intelligent, would the Nursebot 2000s be vulnerable to Satan?

I sense another thread coming up! "Can an AI be tempted by Satan?"*

*I actually did have a bit of a debate with some people at church along these lines, though it was more of a "Would an artificially-produced being such as an AI or a clone have a soul?"-type thing.

[Dravin]

Well, technically speaking, how would they be influenced by Satan if they're at an age where they aren't affected by him?

And since when has Satan tainted the world itself?

Well I was thinking inasmuch as he's influenced the culture in which they've lived he's had a second hand influence on them so to speak. For instance I could teach my niece to stab people with a small knife (or take the name of the Lord in vain if you prefer), now she obviously wasn't influenced by Satan to do such things, but I arguably was influenced to teach her to do such a thing.

I just trying to keep variables to a minimum, may have crossed the line into seeing variables where there isn't any.

Wait... If they were intelligent, would the Nursebot 2000s be vulnerable to Satan?

I sense another thread coming up! "Can an AI be tempted by Satan?"*

If you throw it I'll crash it.

[Robert_Mason]

Well I was thinking inasmuch as he's influenced the culture in which they've lived he's had a second hand influence on them so to speak. For instance I could teach my niece to stab people with a small knife (or take the name of the Lord in vain if you prefer), now she obviously wasn't influenced by Satan to do such things, but I arguably was influenced to teach her to do such a thing.

I just trying to keep variables to a minimum, may have crossed the line into seeing variables where there isn't any.

Well, it seems to be that most children are, naturally, little monsters, in a manner of speaking. Having had to help a great deal with four little siblings, I feel I can say that they already come with all that "bad stuff" included free of charge.

If you throw it I'll crash it.

By "throw it" do you mean "genuinely create a thread along those lines"?

[mikbone]

Satan is a complex character. He is a total enigma to me. I just dont understand his origin or motivaiton. I've tried to study him and every time I do I come away confused. Maybe thats a good thing.

I think that Cain is a much more interesting character to study. From Moses 5, we understand that Cain was labeled "Perdition" in the pre-existence (makes ya wonder how he got thru...) Anyway Cain had a visitation by both Jehovah and Satan prior to murdering his brother Abel. Satan did share with Cain the secret combinations. And we know that Cain will rule over Satan, whatever that means.

[mikeboy]

Yeah, I'm guessing this is one of those "find out in the next life" things.

It really is interesting to think about, though...

I was gonna do a deep, long post, but gave up lol.

I wonder if, when we pass over, we're still tempted by Satan and his angels.. because if they're only fighting against us living people, then the ratio of bad spirits per person should be way higher than 2:1.

[Dravin]

Well, it seems to be that most children are, naturally, little monsters, in a manner of speaking. Having had to help a great deal with four little siblings, I feel I can say that they already come with all that "bad stuff" included free of charge.

There are certain traits that do appear universal so shouldn't have that much of an effect on reproducablity and peer review studies, but you never know. :)

By "throw it" do you mean "genuinely create a thread along those lines"?

Yes, I almost threw out a stream of consciousness here but didn't want to derail the thread.

[john doe]

If you take 1/3 cast out from heaven literally there would be at least 1 fallen angel for every 2 people.:mellow:

Except that number, if you go by that number, is 1/3 of all people who ever have been or ever will be born on the earth, which means that they would outnumber us by far. But they are minions and followers of Satan.

[pam]

Personally I'd like to give him more credit..if not then complacency steps into play and boom..he's gotcha.

[Justice]

He obviously is trying to lead us into habits and addictions. We would then do these things without any prompting. But, would we develop these bad habits or addictions without his tempting?

Probably so, but not near as many and not near as severe, I would think.

I, too, do not blame him because I know I have the power to resist, or if I don't, I know where, how, and who to turn to in order to get it.

Sometimes I have those bright moments where I see what power I am giving him when I make those choices. Those are life's truly surreal moments for me.

[Robert_Mason]

Personally I'd like to give him more credit..if not then complacency steps into play and boom..he's gotcha.

I don't feel that it would make you complacent, so long as you understood the concept properly. Satan is not the source of sin and evil, and only works to help this along, and so... You are your own problem. All those bad thoughts in your head, all those sins you've committed, every last thing you've ever wanted to do, but just barely held back from (or, perhaps, didn't)... That was you, and you can't blame Satan for any of that, because odds are that you didn't need any "helping along," so to speak.

IMO, that awareness would actually make you more alert. There's something about the idea that Satan doesn't even need to bother with you, that you're perfectly capable of sinning even if you were in a giant anti-Satan bubble, that makes it seem like something you need to be watchful for even more, if that were possible.

[Hemidakota]

Doesn't it seem like we're giving him a bit too much credit here? It seems that nearly every temptation is said to come from him, that there wouldn't be anything bad if he wasn't around, et cetera.

Doesn't it seem a lot more plausible that, while he does exist, he only magnifies a problem which is already there? It seems to me that people are perfectly capable of tempting themselves, and that the only thing Satan does is add a bit of spice to it every now and then, or exert a little bit of pressure on someone who he feels especially needs it, just as we might receive a bit of a boost from the Holy Ghost.

Not all of our temptations are of Satan origins.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

So We'll still be bad during the millennium?

[Robert_Mason]

So We'll still be bad during the millennium?

Yes and no. On the one hand, anyone born during those times is of course going to have to discipline themselves, but everyone in general is going to have a rather long time to gain some self-control.

Hmm...

Perhaps moral perfection, in the sense of God's moral perfection, is not a lack of temptation or anything else similar to that, but self-discipline great enough that, quite simply, that doesn't matter any longer.

[Hemidakota]

Even in the Celestial Kingdom, we still chose and may have disagreements among the those are Kings.