Is God Restricted The Priesthood?

[srm]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 13 2004, 04:29 PM

Trident -- You're on a Mormon message board. People are going to (shock!) quote Mormon scripture here. You're well enough versed in the Bible to provide the biblical Trinitarian passages yourself.

So because I am on a mormon board I am expected to believe everything mormon? Jesus is a historical figure, the BoM is not a historical book because it has not been proven to be. I don't believe something just because it has been published, there is a lot of crap in print.

the historicity of a book has nothing to do with whether it has been proven.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

TR2,

Please do me a favor and stop quoting the Bible.

I don't believe it is anything more than Hebrew mythology, so I shouldn't have to look at quotes from a book that I consider to be a mistranslated book of mythology.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 03:52 PM

TR2,

Please do me a favor and stop quoting the Bible. 

I don't believe it is anything more than Hebrew mythology...

What? How can that be.

Do you not believe in talking donkeys?

<span style='color:blue'>Numbers 22

Balaam and His Donkey

27 This time when the donkey saw the angel, it lay down under Balaam. In a fit of rage Balaam beat it again with his staff.

28..."What have I done to you that deserves your beating me these three times?" it asked Balaam.

29"Because you have made me look like a fool!" Balaam shouted. "If I had a sword with me, I would kill you!"

30"But I am the same donkey you always ride on," the donkey answered. "Have I ever done anything like this before?"

"No," he admitted.

[Ray]

We were originally talking about priesthood, right?

Priesthood is a concept that many people don’t think too much about, partly because they don’t understand what that word means. It must first be explained before it can be understood.

Priesthood is like the power of attorney, or any other power enabling a person to act in behalf of another power. We use the word ‘priesthood’ to refer to the power that God can give to Man, so that Man can act as God.

Q: How would it be if Man didn’t have power or authority from God?

A: If Man didn’t have God’s authority, Man would be limited to what only Man can do. The priesthood is necessary if Man desires to do anything that only God can do.

Q: If Man didn’t have God’s authority, how could Man get it?

A: Man can only get God’s authority if God gives it to Him. Man can’t possess the power or authority of God simply by wanting to do what only God can do, no matter how much Man may desire to do what only God can do.

Q: Once Man has power and authority from God, what can Man do with it?

A: Everything God can do, and only what God would do, in a particular set of circumstances. God’s power and authority is given to Man a little at a time, and only to the extent that God Himself would act in that particular set of circumstances. If Man tries to do something that God would not do, Man is only acting in His capacity as Man, and not as God.

The priesthood is one of the greatest gifts that God can give to Man, wouldn’t you say?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 18 2004, 04:40 PM

What? How can that be.

Do you not believe in talking donkeys?

Numbers 22

Balaam and His Donkey

27 This time when the donkey saw the angel, it lay down under Balaam. In a fit of rage Balaam beat it again with his staff.

28..."What have I done to you that deserves your beating me these three times?" it asked Balaam.

29"Because you have made me look like a fool!" Balaam shouted. "If I had a sword with me, I would kill you!"

30"But I am the same donkey you always ride on," the donkey answered. "Have I ever done anything like this before?"

"No," he admitted.

I confess that I have not memorized my Bible from page to page, so I had to go check if this was real or one of Snow's clever creative writing exercises.

I'm going to have to dust off my Bible and start reading more regularily; I'm missing all the good stuff.

M.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 18 2004, 04:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 18 2004, 04:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 03:52 PM

TR2,

Please do me a favor and stop quoting the Bible. 

I don't believe it is anything more than Hebrew mythology...

What? How can that be.

Do you not believe in talking donkeys?

<span style='color:blue'>Numbers 22

Balaam and His Donkey

27 This time when the donkey saw the angel, it lay down under Balaam. In a fit of rage Balaam beat it again with his staff.

28..."What have I done to you that deserves your beating me these three times?" it asked Balaam.

29"Because you have made me look like a fool!" Balaam shouted. "If I had a sword with me, I would kill you!"

30"But I am the same donkey you always ride on," the donkey answered. "Have I ever done anything like this before?"

"No," he admitted.

That's fanstastic, Snow...

I am going to copy this post into my thread on "proof for the Bible"

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 18 2004, 05:01 PM

We were originally talking about priesthood, right?

Priesthood is a concept that many people don’t think too much about, partly because they don’t understand what that word means. It must first be explained before it can be understood.

Priesthood is like the power of attorney, or any other power enabling a person to act in behalf of another power. We use the word ‘priesthood’ to refer to the power that God can give to Man, so that Man can act as God.

Q: How would it be if Man didn’t have power or authority from God?

A: If Man didn’t have God’s authority, Man would be limited to what only Man can do. The priesthood is necessary if Man desires to do anything that only God can do.

Q: If Man didn’t have God’s authority, how could Man get it?

A: Man can only get God’s authority if God gives it to Him. Man can’t possess the power or authority of God simply by wanting to do what only God can do, no matter how much Man may desire to do what only God can do.

Q: Once Man has power and authority from God, what can Man do with it?

A: Everything God can do, and only what God would do, in a particular set of circumstances. God’s power and authority is given to Man a little at a time, and only to the extent that God Himself would act in that particular set of circumstances. If Man tries to do something that God would not do, Man is only acting in His capacity as Man, and not as God.

The priesthood is one of the greatest gifts that God can give to Man, wouldn’t you say?

There are scriptures which the Protestants believe declare that God has given the priesthood to all believers in Christ. I'll look them up.

As long as we're talking about priesthood, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer as to where Alma the Elder got his. The story of Alma in the book of Mosiah does seem a lot more consistent with the Protestant concept of the priesthood of all believers than it does with the later Mormon concept of a chain of authority handed down from one priesthood bearer to another.

Mosiah 11:5 says King Noah "put down" all the existing priests and consecrated his own, who justified his wickedness. One of Noah's priests was Alma, who was converted by Abinadi and fled into the wilderness, where he established a church.

I don't see any way Alma could have been given the priesthood by someone in authority. He had been "consecrated" by Noah, who doesn't seem to have had the priesthood himself. And in Mosiah 18:14, it appears that he hadn't even been baptized yet (he baptized himself along with his first convert, Helam.)

I suppose the priesthood could have been restored to Alma in the same manner it was to Joseph Smith (i.e. by heavenly messengers), but that would have been a useful detail to include in the story, at least for clarity's sake.

[Ray]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@ Feb 19 2004, 01:27 PM

I suppose the priesthood could have been restored to Alma in the same manner it was to Joseph Smith (i.e. by heavenly messengers), but that would have been a useful detail to include in the story, at least for clarity's sake.

I agree, it would be very nice if the Book of Mormon included more details about how Alma received the priesthood, and it would also be very nice if the Bible included more details about how the priesthood passes from one person to another, but you do agree that the Book of Mormon contains more details about that issue than the Bible does, don’t you? And you do agree that we aren’t limited to the information we have in only the Bible or Book of Mormon, don’t you? I thank God for providing continuing revelation, especially the revelation I have personally received, and I hope you do too.

Btw, the religion I once accepted believes the authority is passed along in what is called "The Great Commission", which refers to the record in Matthew where Jesus told His apostles to go into all the world to preach the gospel, baptizing all who repent, and teaching them to do what He taught them. Those aren’t the exact words, but close enough.

My Dad, who is a preacher of that religion, says that everything our Lord taught His apostles that Man needs to know is contained in the Bible, and that someone who teaches from the Bible knows everything that Man needs to know and is thus empowered with the same authority that our Lord gave to His apostles. He compared it to someone finding a rulebook explaining how to play baseball, with that rulebook containing everything a person needs to know to play baseball. Following the same logic, I could say the same thing about someone finding a set of law books, explaining everything a person needs to know about the law.

But a person who knows everything about the law isn’t automatically authorized to be a policeman, or a lawyer, or a judge. And a person who knows how to play baseball isn’t automatically accepted into the Major Leagues either. And even if the scriptures did contain everything we needed to know, what makes someone think they are authorized to do something just because they know how?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Maureen@Feb 18 2004, 05:07 PM

I confess that I have not memorized my Bible from page to page, so I had to go check if this was real or one of Snow's clever creative writing exercises.

I'm going to have to dust off my Bible and start reading more regularily; I'm missing all the good stuff.

M.

What?

If it were not true (that I take creative license) and complementary, then I would be offended. As it is, I say: "Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes." Acutally, I don't know why I say that. It seems out of place on a discussion board. Still in all, if we were in a musket fight, it might be just the ticket.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 19 2004, 01:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 19 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Maureen@Feb 18 2004, 05:07 PM

I confess that I have not memorized my Bible from page to page, so I had to go check if this was real or one of Snow's clever creative writing exercises.

I'm going to have to dust off my Bible and start reading more regularily; I'm missing all the good stuff.

M.

What?

If it were not true (that I take creative license) and complementary, then I would be offended. As it is, I say: "Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes." Acutally, I don't know why I say that. It seems out of place on a discussion board. Still in all, if we were in a musket fight, it might be just the ticket.

Well, isn't that just like a [insert derogatory ethnic reference here] to bring a spontoon to a musket fight.

[Guest Starsky]

I think that Alma the elder received the priesthood through Noah, even though Noah was wicked...because he was an authorized leader through his father.

Maybe Noah's priesthood wasn't totally valid, but the Lord doesn't always use the most prominantly righteous people to do the work either.

I think the reason JS had to have a brand new start from Peter, James, and John, was because of the centuries and millenia of corruptions and lost 'high priest' authority of the priesthood.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 19 2004, 11:25 PM

I think that Alma the elder received the priesthood through Noah, even though Noah was wicked...because he was an authorized leader through his father.

Maybe Noah's priesthood wasn't totally valid, but the Lord doesn't always use the most prominantly righteous people to do the work either.

I think the reason JS had to have a brand new start from Peter, James, and John, was because of the centuries and millenia of corruptions and lost 'high priest' authority of the priesthood.

Peace -- The problem with that idea is that the Book of Mormon says that Noah put down "all" the priests who'd been consecrated by his father. No exceptions, not even himself. If "all" the priests ordained by Zeniff ) were put down, that would have to include Noah (if he were ever a priest to begin with), or the most correct of any book isn't correct on this point.

Ray -- It's actually a relatively recent development that you need special authority to be a lawyer. Time was, you'd just study law and hang up a shingle, like Thomas Jefferson did. Civilization survived. Peace would probably even think this arrangement was better than the one we have now, in which law schools churn out thousands of certified lawyers and load them with so much student debt that they have to go out, like locusts, and sue everything in sight regardless of the merits.

I think priesthood authority's practical effect is its most important feature. Priesthood keeps the Church united, just as the Catholic tradition of priesthood keeps that church from splintering and re-splintering in the Protestant manner.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Feb 20 2004, 12:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Feb 20 2004, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 19 2004, 11:25 PM

I think that Alma the elder received the priesthood through Noah, even though Noah was wicked...because he was an authorized leader through his father.

Maybe Noah's priesthood wasn't totally valid, but the Lord doesn't always use the most prominantly righteous people to do the work either.

I think the reason JS had to have a brand new start from Peter, James, and John, was because of the centuries and millenia of corruptions and lost 'high priest' authority of the priesthood.

Peace -- The problem with that idea is that the Book of Mormon says that Noah put down "all" the priests who'd been consecrated by his father. No exceptions, not even himself. If "all" the priests ordained by Zeniff ) were put down, that would have to include Noah (if he were ever a priest to begin with), or the most correct of any book isn't correct on this point.

I don't agree....he didn't release himself....he just released all of his father's priests who were subordinant to himself.

Noah himself was chosen by his father...if your interpretation was correct, Noah would have had to put himself out as well....but he didn't. LOL

Also, if you follow the pattern set to that point...they were all high priests if they ruled over the people, or prophets who were high priests.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Peace:

I don't agree....he didn't release himself....he just released all of his father's priests who were subordinant to himself.

The text doesn't say that. It said he released all his father's priests. Period. I suppose you could read an exception for Noah himself into the text, but you'd have to base that on your assumption of what makes sense, not the text itself.

Of course, you'd also have to read into the text the fact that Noah himself had priesthood authority. There's no record of that, either:

Noah himself was chosen by his father...if your interpretation was correct, Noah would have had to put himself out as well....but he didn't.

Noah was "chosen" by his father to serve as king, not priest. (Or maybe he wasn't "chosen" by Zeniff at all. Maybe Zeniff just died without giving instructions for the succession, and the tradition was for the son to succeed the father. Again, there is no indication that Noah was ever ordained to the priesthood by one in authority.

Also, if you follow the pattern set to that point...they were all high priests if they ruled over the people, or prophets who were high priests.

True, but if you follow the route by which Zeniff and then Noah got to be kings (and possibly also high priests -- the Book of Mormon isn't clear on this point, but King Benjamin did appoint priests, suggesting that he had some spiritual as well as temporal authority, kind of like the King of England), it wasn't by being granted that authority through regular channels.

Back up a bit to the book of Omni, in verse 1:12. That relates how Mosiah the first packed up on his own and left the land of Nephi, taking people with him, as apparently the land of Nephi had become wicked and was about to be destroyed. Mosiah was appointed king in Zarahemla, apparently by the vote of his people and of the Mulekites. He hadn't been granted the authority to be king or high priest by the king and presumed high priest in the land of Nephi, who was apparently wicked.

Likewise, Zeniff (the predecessor of Noah) wasn't formally appointed king/priest by another king/priest. Like Mosiah, he just up and left Zarahemla to go back to Nephi, taking people with him who made him king "by the voice of the people." (See Mosiah 7:9).

See the pattern? Even if Nephite kings were also high priests, this authority didn't come from being ordained by the preceding kings and priests. Apparently, any independent-minded colonizer who could get the people to acclaim him as king could also conduct ordinances like ordination without having received any authority from those over him. The Book of Mormon, especially in Mosiah, is far more Protestant in its approach to authority than the modern Church is.

[Tr2]

I am noticing a trend here. There is talk about men giving power, institutions giving power, etc. Not seeing a whole lot about God here, mostly about people. Obviously this discussion is about people, but I did think God would be more part of the discussion. Just interesting how people see this issue.

"Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes."

If you can see the whites of their eyes, then they can see yours. Sneak up on the SOB's and shoot them when they aren't looking.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 21 2004, 12:09 AM

I am noticing a trend here. There is talk about men giving power, institutions giving power, etc. Not seeing a whole lot about God here, mostly about people. Obviously this discussion is about people, but I did think God would be more part of the discussion. Just interesting how people see this issue.

"Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes."

If you can see the whites of their eyes, then they can see yours. Sneak up on the SOB's and shoot them when they aren't looking.

Good points TR2.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 21 2004, 12:09 AM

I am noticing a trend here. There is talk about men giving power, institutions giving power, etc. Not seeing a whole lot about God here, mostly about people. Obviously this discussion is about people, but I did think God would be more part of the discussion. Just interesting how people see this issue.

God originally gave the authority to man, from there it passes from man to man. God does not convey authority with each new generation.

Let me clarify that, though. All authority comes from God, but it is passed on through ordination in two ways. From priesthood member to new priesthood member, and from God to new priesthood member (because the priesthood stand in the stead of Christ.)

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 21 2004, 08:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 21 2004, 08:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Feb 21 2004, 12:09 AM

I am noticing a trend here. There is talk about men giving power, institutions giving power, etc. Not seeing a whole lot about God here, mostly about people. Obviously this discussion is about people, but I did think God would be more part of the discussion. Just interesting how people see this issue.

God originally gave the authority to man, from there it passes from man to man. God does not convey authority with each new generation.

Let me clarify that, though. All authority comes from God, but it is passed on through ordination in two ways. From priesthood member to new priesthood member, and from God to new priesthood member (because the priesthood stand in the stead of Christ.)

Just like a virus, eh? Only one that needs "direct contact", apparently, in the form of "laying on of hands".

Criminy!

[Guest Starsky]

'Criminy' indeed. Your bitterness is showing.

[Cal]

NO! You guys have it all wrong! If you stand on a hill in a thunderstorm, you can get your authority right from the source! It will come from the laying on of the ELECTRONS!

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 22 2004, 11:23 AM

'Criminy' indeed. Your bitterness is showing.

Peace, you continue to harbor the false belief that I am bitter and angry. Nothing could be further from the truth! I reiterate that I am a happy person, with a scewed sense of humour, and truth be told, I continue to come to this web page in part because it amuses me so very much that people like you exist who fervently believe in something I consider nothing more than a fairy tale. LOL!

Thanks again for providing me with another snicker and laugh at your expense! heh heh heh

[Guest Starsky]

Like I said...bitter. You can feign your happy-go-lucky attitude all you want, but every word you print drips of bitterness and unhappiness in your own realm.

No one who is truly happy, wants to hurt others. Yet you jab at people and call it entertaining. Sad, sad, sad, bitter person.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 22 2004, 11:05 PM

Like I said...bitter. You can feign your happy-go-lucky attitude all you want, but every word you print drips of bitterness and unhappiness in your own realm.

No one who is truly happy, wants to hurt others. Yet you jab at people and call it entertaining. Sad, sad, sad, bitter person.

SNORT! There's one thing I can count on when it comes to you, Peace, you believe the falsehoods you have created in YOUR OWN MIND!

Please show where I have "hurt" anyone here by any of my postings. Please.

You are a sad sad deluded person. Heh heh heh

[Snow]

Originally posted by bizabra@Feb 23 2004, 09:20 AM

Please show where I have "hurt" anyone here by any of my postings. Please.

All I know is that when you start posting Biz, my lumbago acts up.

Coincidence? You be the judge.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 23 2004, 11:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 23 2004, 11:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bizabra@Feb 23 2004, 09:20 AM

Please show where I have "hurt" anyone here by any of my postings.  Please.

All I know is that when you start posting Biz, my lumbago acts up.

Coincidence? You be the judge.

That's because I have a Spiderman action figure by my computer, and everytime I read one of your posts I stick a needle into it! Bwahhhhhhaaaaahhhhaaaaahhhhaaaaaaaaa! (much gleeful evil laughter ensues)