Faith/Works

[prisonchaplain]

Justice, I consider the seven sons of Sceva, mentioned in the book of Acts. They confronted a demon-possessed man, and commanded the demons to leave, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches." These sons were not believers. They did not have faith. Yet, at the name of Jesus the demons departed . . . and attacked the seven sons of Sceva! So, ironically, works without faith can lead to a miracle...but pity the unbeliever! :-)

[Justice]

Yes, but isn't there a way both your story in Acts and these words of Moroni can both be true?

[prisonchaplain]

Sure...perhaps those 7 sons realized the power of Jesus' name...and got saved. The works led to the faith. And yet, for most, the faith in Jesus leads to great works. Indeed, I would agree they both are true.

[Hemidakota]

PC, here are some scriptures from the Book of Mormon, written by Moroni, the man (angel) who later appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the plates. He wrote this as he was abridging the record of a group of people who left Babylon at the time of the tower, and the confounding of the languages... about 2300 BC if I remember correctly.

If you read this carefully you will understand why I believe works are of faith, and both are before conversion. It is after the trial of our faith, which includes the need for works, that we receive the gift.

Ether 12:

4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

5 And it came to pass that Ether did prophesy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

7 For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had faith in him; wherefore, it must needs be that some had faith in him, for he showed himself not unto the world.

8 But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, that they might hope for those things which they have not seen.

9 Wherefore, ye may also have hope, and be partakers of the gift, if ye will but have faith.

10 Behold it was by faith that they of old were called after the holy order of God.

11 Wherefore, by faith was the law of Moses given. But in the gift of his Son hath God prepared a more excellent way; and it is by faith that it hath been fulfilled.

12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith.

13 Behold, it was the faith of Alma and Amulek that caused the prison to tumble to the earth.

14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

15 Behold, it was the faith of Ammon and his brethren which wrought so great a miracle among the Lamanites.

16 Yea, and even all they who wrought miracles wrought them by faith, even those who were before Christ and also those who were after.

17 And it was by faith that the three disciples obtained a promise that they should not taste of death; and they obtained not the promise until after their faith.

18 And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God.

19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad.

20 And behold, we have seen in this record that one of these was the brother of Jared; for so great was his faith in God, that when God put forth his finger he could not hide it from the sight of the brother of Jared, because of his word which he had spoken unto him, which word he had obtained by faith.

21 And after the brother of Jared had beheld the finger of the Lord, because of the promise which the brother of Jared had obtained by faith, the Lord could not withhold anything from his sight; wherefore he showed him all things, for he could no longer be kept without the veil.

I wonder how many in the church applied this simple principle?

[Hemidakota]

Justice, I consider the seven sons of Sceva, mentioned in the book of Acts. They confronted a demon-possessed man, and commanded the demons to leave, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches." These sons were not believers. They did not have faith. Yet, at the name of Jesus the demons departed . . . and attacked the seven sons of Sceva! So, ironically, works without faith can lead to a miracle...but pity the unbeliever! :-)

Nor did they have the authorized power [priesthood authority] to cast them out...it requires more than just faith to cast out one of Lucifer's minion. Those who have confronted Lucifer or one of his minion may know what I am referring too.

[Hemidakota]

How does "progressive sanctification work"? And how do works/faith play a role?

We know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true;

And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.—JOSEPH SMITH

Joseph Smith taught that in the program of the gospel man is justified and sanctified through the grace and power of Jesus Christ. Justification is concerned, essentially, with acquitting man legally from the demands of broken law; it is accomplished primarily through the program of the preparatory gospel. The teachings which show man how to obtain and retain a remission of personal sins through Christ constitute the doctrine of justification. Sanctification is concerned with cleansing man from the effects of sin and making him pure and holy before God; it is accomplished through the atonement and by the aid of the Holy Spirit which Christ gives to man in the gift of the Holy Ghost. The teachings which show man how to be sanctified from the effects of sin constitute the doctrine of sanctification.

How do we define Sanctification? Joseph Smith taught that in being sanctified, man is not only forgiven of sin but cleansed from the effects of it so that he is made a pure and holy being. The English word "sanctify" comes from the French word sanctifier, which means to make holy, which in turn derives from the Latin root sanctus, which means holy. It is one thing to forgive man of his sins and thereby acquit him of personal responsibility to divine law, but it is quite another thing to purge and renovate his soul from the effects of those sins and from the influences of this fallen mortal state. The latter tasks are those which are involved in the work of sanctification. Orson Pratt explained:

After you have been immersed . . . in the water [of baptism], and been cleansed and received a remission of your sins, you also have the promise of baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, by which you are . . . sanctified from all your evil affections, and you feel to love God and that which is just and true, and to hate that which is sinful and evil. Why? Because of this sanctifying, purifying principle that comes upon you, by the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost

You will find, those who met these conditions have a hard time in living each day in this mortal probation.

[mountthepavement]

I'm in the process of reading all this new and interesting posts after a week's hiatus, but I hope I can venture a new relevant question:

Consider the idea that people only have the power to reject the gospel and god but not the power to accept him (or, paradoxically, to accept him only in weakness or brokenness, through a surrender of the will, which I hope you can see is an apparent contradiction, a paradox, even if a poetic-sounding one). How does this fit with all of y'all's beliefs?

To me, this simplifies things utterly, and removes all the terminology and poetry which might otherwise characterize our reflections on our faith.

To put it another way: we are all liars, so the only way to speak the truth is to avoid propositions.

[Guest TheLutheran]

. . . How does this fit with all of y'all's beliefs? . . .

Sorry . . . I just love that phrase. My childhood girlfriend from Texas used to say it all the time. Can't say that I've ever seen it in type. Thanks for the chuckle and the memories.

Now . . . back to this most serious faith/works discussion.

[Traveler]

Justice, I consider the seven sons of Sceva, mentioned in the book of Acts. They confronted a demon-possessed man, and commanded the demons to leave, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches." These sons were not believers. They did not have faith. Yet, at the name of Jesus the demons departed . . . and attacked the seven sons of Sceva! So, ironically, works without faith can lead to a miracle...but pity the unbeliever! :-)

PC. It is my impression that the significances of “taking upon a name”, “believing on a name”, “using a name” or “doing something in the someone’s name” has lost much in interpretation and translation of ancient scripture. Anciently in the understanding of “Kingdoms”, anyone doing or using the name of the Suzerain did so as proxy or as the “appointed” vassal of the Suzerain.

Anyone misusing the name of the Suzerain was punished for treason and put to death. Those duped by the misuse of the Suzerain’s name were punished by having their ears burned so they could no longer hear and their eyes gouged out so they could no longer see. Thus the admonition for those that had eyes to see and those that had ears to hear is a direct reference to this ancient order.

Jesus also made reference to those that misunderstood the appointment of his name and that they would not be accepted.

One thing that so impressed me from the scriptures is that when the Apostles (who we know were given the right to use the name of Jesus Christ) were warned that there was one among they that would “turn their back” on the Christ, that there was not one of them that pronounced, “It is not me – I believe and I have been saved!” but they all asked, “L-rd is it I”.

It does appear to me that works are the means by which the L-rd directed that we may identify those he has designated to use his name for as he told the Scribes and Pharisees – If you love G-d you will do his will. And as Jesus told his disciples – if you love me you will keep my commandments. The point I believe is that if we love Jesus we will keep his commandments and we will encourage others to keep the His commandments. When someone says that keeping the commandments are not really necessary – for whatever reason – it convinces me, that they (like the 7 sons of Sceva) do not really speak for Christ.

Some may see this as an interesting religious debate – I see this as one of the means to decipher who really speaks in the name of Jesus Christ.

The Traveler