When is divorce recommended?

[deadinside]

Even if you still live your life in accordance with Church teachings, to some degree your wife is simply not getting what she bargained for. There's going to be some shock, hurt, and (probably) resentment.

That is certainly where we are. She's just taking her resentment and shock to levels that may not be repairable.

That said: As long as you haven't committed adultery and aren't bringing verboten items into the house (alcohol, porn, coffee, etc), divorce isn't going to solve any of the problems that your lack of faith has (from your wife's viewpoint) caused. Does she fear your "corrupting" influence on the kids? Guess what--even if you get divorced, you will still get unsupervised visitation unless you've done something very heinous. And at the risk of sounding horribly sexist--a thirtysomething woman with four kids probably has as good a chance of reactivating her husband than she does of finding a new husband. (Marital tip: Do not make this argument to her!)

I almost suspect there's something else going on here that you have forgotten to mention. But if there isn't, then my guess is that she's just going through a phase of shock-induced irrationality. Stick it out, and she should come to her senses eventually.

There was some internet porn involved. Probably a monthly type thing. I have a very high sex drive and she does not. I can probably learn to control it more and deal with it in other ways. I think we can figure things out to make it a non issue for the future. I don't claim to be innocent, but those type of things can be changed. Belief can't just be given the same way. My only real concern with her wanting to get remarried is how it will affect the kids. She may or may not find something better than me, but will it be better for the kids? Doubtful.

If you read the other comments, you will see some of the "other" briefly mentioned, but those can be dealt with. I pushed my wife away and thought I didn't love her. That was possibly just as painful as the religious change. Once I had more time to process things, I see that I do love her and have, but didn't know it. I have slight depression and never knew it. I am getting counseling now as well which is helping.

[deadinside]

Does that mean you've been away from home for 6 weeks? That might be one of the things you need to change. Maybe change jobs if you have to to be with your family more. Sounds like they need you right now.

I work overseas right now. She and the boys were with me here until early May. We signed up for a year here to see how it would go and maybe it wasn't such a good idea. I have a couple more weeks here, then I'm signed up to go to Iraq until December. I am trying to get a job back in Utah, but that won't happen until January or late December at earliest. Right now, I have changed to a stateside site which will be much easier than overseas, but it's California and not Utah like she would like. So I am trying to resolve that aspect of life.

[Justice]

I have slight depression and never knew it. I am getting counseling now as well which is helping.

This is the most positive thing you have said, IMO.

I'm not against you. I hope and pray that things will work out for you.

I decided to send you a private message.

[Helgi]

Dear Dead Inside,

I´m pleased to hear, that you are endeavouring to get employment back in the States.

I should also like to take this opportunity, to wish you a happy father´s day.

I should like to take this opportunity to share with you to short stories from our sacrament meeting today.

The first is an abridged version of a story read from Chicken Soup for The Soul.

"A father in Armenia had said to his son, that he would always be there for him. One day an earthquake above 8 on the Richter scale, hit the town. The father was immediately concerned about his son´s welfare, and went to his school. It had been leveled. He began digging with his hands, and other parents came on the scene and told him to go home, that everyone was dead. He replied: "Are you going to help me?", and continued digging. The fire department came on the scene and advised him to go home, as there were many fires breaking out. He replied: "Are you going to help me?" - Finally the police came on the scene and they said the same thing, to which he replied: "Are you going to help me?" After 38 hrs of digging he got inside and called for his son, who responded saying: "I´m alright. I knew you would come, as you said you would always be there for me." His father urged him to crawl out. The child refused, as there were 14 kids down there, and he knew that as long as he was there, that his father would not leave." - Those children were saved because of his father´s perseverance.

Are you going to be there for your children?

The other story I´d like to share with you, was presented in a General Priesthood Session a year ago, and again today in Sacrament:

A father comes home, and the first thing his son asks him, is: "Dad, how much do you make an hour?"

His father´s response was vehement, and the father told him to go to his room. Immediately assuming that the kid wanted something.

After calming down, he went to his son´s room, and spoke to him, and told him that he made GBP 10 an hour (equiv. to USD 20 an hour), and asked him why he wanted to know. The child said: "You see dad, I´ve got GBP 7.50 saved (USD 14), when I´ve saved GBP 10 (USD 20), I´d like to buy an hour of your time so that we can play."

I know that work is important and puts food on the table, but in all honesty my dear brother, The prophets have told us, that: Family is #1, work is #2 (as it provides you with food, clothing, tithing and fast offerings), and your church calling is #3.

Do you really want your children to have to buy your time?

You´re family was precious enough for you to start it 19 years ago. Don´t throw it away. You know the Church is true. You have a faithful wife that has stood by you thus far. Now it is your turn.

I was in a relationship a few years ago. She was a non member. We agreed that every other week we would attend a Church of England Service and The Church of Jesus Christ the Next. - She didn´t even want to go to her own church, but backed out of it.

I ended up leaving her and packing my job in, and became active again; and she started going to a Baptist Church, she even called me, but I had to be honest with her and said I was happy for her, but that I had found that happiness that I had missed, but that we could still be friends. To which she replied, that she couldn´t be friends with me, in case I met someone, and she was honest with me, that she couldn´t commit to Church Standards.

I then fell in love, got engaged and married a beautiful daughter of God. I´ve never regreted leaving my job, or leaving my X, and going through the rough times, as being with an LDS is a far greater blessing.

You can repair your marriage, for I can tell and The Spirit testifies it is so. Do you remember a song called "Cats in the Cradle" with Harry Chapman? It´s all about a son who keeps asking his father when he´s coming home, and he keeps giving excuses. Daddy finally retires and the kids are all grown up, and he asks them when they are coming over. They are too busy with their careers and family and have no time for him. They had become their father.

While I was dating my wife (before we got married), a young lady lived at her place as a student lodger. She and her boyfriend, phoned each other every day, and read the scriptures together every day, and they prayed together. They got married a couple of months before us, and are expecting a baby just like we are.

If you are having a long distance relationship with your wife, as I surmize from your posts, call her up, pray together, read the scriptures together, call your family up in their morning and speak to them and have a morning prayer, and tell them how much you love them, and wish them all luck in whatever they are doing, be it little league, school play, scouts, sports or whatever. Call them in the evening, and find out how they are doing, and how they did.

Get a laptop, and SKYPE them. It´s free. Use a phone card if you have to phone during office hours, and dial the 0800 # on the card so it won´t cost the company anything. Repair the marriage, and if you ask your wife to find you another job she will.

So what if it means having to have one car instead of two. Life is not about status symbols, it´s about life eternal.

I am as I´ve pointed out, a teacher of the course "STRENGTHENING THE FAMILY", if you want someone with a listening ear, you may send me a private message through this system.

You´ve already taken a big step, by admitting, that YOU pushed your wife away, YOU also turned your back on the Lord when you started loosing faith. You said your prayers weren´t being answered, BUT THEY ARE BEING ANSWERED, through every ministering angel who has joined in this thread. Just because the answer isn´t what you want (i.e. justification of or for divorce), or what you expect, doesn´t mean it isn´t an answer. The question is more are you ready to listen?

My dear brother, remember the words Joseph Smith Jr. read in The Book of James: "If ye lack wisdom. Let him ask of God, who giveth all men liberally and upbraideth not. BUT let him ask in FAITH, NOTHING WAVERING."

FAST, go down on your knees, and pray aloud, pouring out your heart to The Lord, and then be quiet, UNTIL you HEAR THE ANSWER.

With Brotherly Love,

Elder Sigurjón Helgi Kristjánsson

[Just_A_Guy]

There was some internet porn involved. Probably a monthly type thing. I have a very high sex drive and she does not. I can probably learn to control it more and deal with it in other ways. I think we can figure things out to make it a non issue for the future. I don't claim to be innocent, but those type of things can be changed. Belief can't just be given the same way. My only real concern with her wanting to get remarried is how it will affect the kids. She may or may not find something better than me, but will it be better for the kids? Doubtful.

I don't have too much to add here. I've been there, where internet porn is concerned. But my experience probably won't be too helpful to you, because for me entirely kicking the habit entailed an intensely spiritual conversion (a major element of the Church's addiction recovery program). It's probably possible to kick the habit without spiritual help--but I have no idea how to advise you on that one.

From my standpoint, though, your wife does have every right to make your future avoidance of pornography a precondition to continuing the marriage. My opinion is that no woman should have to put up with a husband who uses pornography to any degree; and if that means subjecting the kids to a divorce--so be it.

But assuming you are willing and able to quit viewing pornography completely, where your kids are concerned I pretty much stand by what I said earlier. There's a vast likelihood that your wife won't succeed in getting them away from you completely. So it's basically a choice between keeping them in one household and both of you determining to make that household as happy as possible under the circumstances (if the relationship is still bad when the kids are grown, you can divorce then), or shuttling them back and forth between two households every other weekend. I'm a hopeless traditionalist, but all other things being equal I think the first option is the better one. It's easy to say, "Well, my kids are better off without all that tension". But divorce is almost universally catastrophic for children. If it can be avoided, generally speaking, it should be.

Best of luck, my friend.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Helgi]

Just a guy is right.

My wife divorced her X because of that. He was always online looking at different porn sites, and also in chat rooms.

Remember, that The Bible says: (irrespective of which denomination you follow) That he who has committed adultery in his heart (pornography and lewd thoughts included) has committed the act with that person.

It doesn´t matter what justifications mortal man (Natural Man) may come up with, it doesn´t change what the Bible states or what it implies or means.

You are bound by your marriage covenant, to be faitful and true; To have only ONE woman, and keep the ONLY UNTO HER.

END OF STORY.

Give up your voyeurism, and day job, and move back with your family. Go down on your knees and repent.

[deadinside]

It doesn´t matter what justifications mortal man (Natural Man) may come up with, it doesn´t change what the Bible states or what it implies or means.

Give up your voyeurism, and day job, and move back with your family. Go down on your knees and repent.

Your views may be admirable, but is your situation that great? I will not give up my job just to move back so I can not support my family financially. My job as a father is to provide. The woman's is to nurture. I already said I am looking for a job, but I am not going to be changing anything until December.

Your comments are assuming I am more of an active member that believes the church. That is not the case, but you are free to have your opinion. Does it matter what the bible states if it's not true? I'm not telling you it isn't, but telling you that to me it probably isn't and that I don't believe it is so it doesn't matter what the bible says.

[Just_A_Guy]

Does it matter what the bible states if it's not true? I'm not telling you it isn't, but telling you that to me it probably isn't and that I don't believe it is so it doesn't matter what the bible says.

Not to you. But it apparently matters a great deal to your wife.

[Misshalfway]

Thanks, I'll read it once I'm done responding to everyone!

No. She is still trying to decide if she wants to be divorced or married. I am just trying to help her see my way as I don't think divorce will make anything easier or better. She's trying to decide for herself. She is getting counseling for personal issues as well and to heal from all this stuff.

I don't claim this is the only issue. It is just the only one she said was a deal breaker. Everything else, I think can be repaired or changed to make the marriage work other than me believing. That will take time and she is suppose to make up this decision within 3.5 weeks from now when I go home for vacation according to your therapist. She agreed that this is a decision that my wife has to figure out assuming I will not have a change of heart. Her not knowing if she wants to stay married is weighing hard on the marriage. She wants to be treated like a wife, but isn't committed to the relationship. How would you feel if every day when you got home from work your spouse greeted you with pleasantries and always made a point of letting you know that they weren't sure if they wanted to remain married to you? That changes how I feel and act thinking I may come home any day and find out she wants a divorce so I protect myself. Protecting myself only makes things worse though, but I can't help that either. So she has to commit or not and she should know in a few weeks.

Are there other issues? Plenty. She has some reasons to hurt and worry, but only time will heal that and until she at least commits to the attempt to try nothing can progress. Being apart is certainly a strain on our relationship at the moment.

If you think it would be helpful to know these details, I have no problem talking about them, but it's not my main concern. She has just said that these details are part of the deal breaker issue so they could change that decision so now we are going to start working on the other issues. She has boundary issues and her therapist is helping her set some or giving her info to allow her to set them herself. She is making me a list of boundaries and will share that with me. That is where we will begin, but that too is still an unknown as to what they are.

Respect and trust are issues I have right now with her. We have both broken our trust in each other and I feel she also has no respect for me and she is ruining our chances of getting back together. Just today other things came up and I'm one step away from not caring what she decides and I'll just make up her mind for her and call it quits. Better yet, if you want details, PM me. Probably more than needs to be on an open forum.

Yes. I changed my views over many years. We were not married in the temple, but sealed a year later. There was no misrepresentation if you can see what that means. I never claimed to be strong in the gospel, but I did believe I believed.

What has caused the change? That's is a very long conversation that is just simplified into life events and happenings that lead me to believe things may not be as I once thought they were.

Threads like this are tough because there are always two people in a marriage, and one usually goes unrepresented.

There is no doubt in my mind, deadinside, that both you and your wife are struggling on multiple fronts. It sounds like you both have personal/spiritual issues AND you have your marital ones too. I hope it helps to know that others have been there and may understand.

You must be feeling some intense emotions to have named yourself "deadinside". I find that a curious name considering your posts. I can't see yet if that is because your marriage is causing you so much pain or if it is your choices about spiritual concepts that makes you feel this way.

I don't know if this will help, but I think maybe I have been in a similar place. My marriage and my testimony both hung in the balance for a time. I know what it is like to struggle with LDS doctrine and culture as I tried to figure things out with my limited abilities to do so. I, also, felt that the LDS church was not what I thought it was. I have since come to understand things better and my feet are now planted on firmer ground. But I empathize with being in a place of questioning and determining to leave the church. And all thru this time, my marriage was under fire too. We had many painful issues on the table. And now, my dear husband had a wife that wasn't sure about all the things he cherished on top it! It was a very disheartening time for both of us. All the things we relied on and trusted in were evaporating under our feet! But I am happy to report that my husband dealt with my struggles in patience and faith and kindness and he helped me to sort thru my feelings over many months.

Don't give up on either of your struggles.

I don't know what you mean when you say your wife isn't "acting like a wife". In my very limited view, it seems to me that she is reacting the way someone who is hurting does. Apply your love and gentleness to her pain, instead of defending yourself. You can still stand your ground wherever you need to stand today AND love her thru her healing. Marriage partners waste a lot of time and inflict undo pain when they deal in defense.

And with regards to the spiritual issues you wrestle with......are you still undecided about the church and the realism of God and the rest? Or have you made your decision and are you ready to live in the consequences of that? And if you are undecided, would you be willing to engage in a dialogue to process some of your spiritual/doctrinal concerns?

[foreverafter]

Marriage means you give yourself, your life & your body to your wife over the altar. That means not a compromise but a 100% total submission to her desires, needs & happiness & if you do that for her she is obligated to do the same for you, & hopefully she will. But the only thing that can save a marriage forever is Unconditional True Love.

I am impressed with your willingness to even go to church & through the motions, like scriptures study, family prayer, etc, even if you don't have a testimony of it all. That is very commendable & just doing that will eventually give you a testimony for sure, if you also live the commandments (especially quiting the porn stuff & drinking, etc.) so your heart can be receptive to the Spirit telling you the truth of the these things. Be completely faithful to her in mind, heart & body so the Spirit can come to you & give you answers to your problems & questions about the Church & Gospel & your marriage.

Of course you can't lie you believe it all, but I would think she would be so greatful that you at least are willing to act like you believe until a testimony comes for you. If she still leaves you after all you do & change just for her, than she will almost surely be back soon, after finding out the field was not greener, even with a guy who might be active. I have seen woman after woman leave a decent guy who loves them, who's a good dad & willing to work on the marriage, & they usually come back after a few years realizing their mistake. You are right, it is best for your children to have you in the home with them, their own dad who loves them. Divorce destroys children's lives & usually spouses too.

If you will watch the 1st scene in the movie "Princess Bride" the "As You Wish" part, & then live like that for her, you not only will gain a testimony of the Gospel, for you will be demonstrating the True Love of Christ in your marriage which brings you the Spirit inside you, but you will fall even more madly in love with her & she will feel it & how can a woman walk away from True Love or stay away from it for long. True Love never ends or gives up & it always wins in the end. The movie "Fireproof" is also a must see & helps demonstrate this True Love.

Also, remember that providing, while a very vital thing, is not the #1 thing a woman usually needs or wants. Love, companionship & faithfulness are what women usually want more than anything. If I had marriage problems I would not be taking any job that took me away from a spouse for even a couple days. I would live in a tent before I would take a job that could destroy my marriage & family. You must be together as much as possible during the day to hold a marriage together, especially one on the edge. Your marriage may not survive any more absences. Remember, the whole reason you are working is to support her in her role as wife & mother, so if your job does not make her happy than you should find one that does & live wherever she wants.

Hopefully in time she will follow your example & love you & serve your needs & desires the same way you do her. That is when you will both enjoy the "exultant ecstacy" that Pres. Hinckley said was possible for every couple. The only arguements you want to have are those where you want to do what she wants & she wants to do what you want.

You sound like a very great guy at heart. You may just have a stronger faith in the gospel of love than she does. For True Love in marriage is one of the real proofs of one's righteousness. I think she would be foolish to leave such a guy who is willing to love & sacrifice for her as you seem willing to do. I wish you the best in saving your marriage. Just remember, you don't need quotes to save your marriage, just True Love.

Here is a promise from a Prophet, that I would think would give hope to even those who don't believe yet.

"If you will make your 1st concern the comfort, well-being & happiness of your companion, sublimating any personal concern to that loftier goal, you will be happy & your marriage will go on through eternity." Pres. Hinckley

Edited June 22, 2009 by foreverafter

[deadinside]

Marriage means you give yourself, your life & your body to your wife over the altar. That means not a compromise but a 100% total submission to her desires, needs & happiness & if you do that for her she is obligated to do the same for you, & hopefully she will. But the only thing that can save a marriage forever is Unconditional True Love.

I guess we just don't see this area the same. I see it as a compromise and don't see 100% submission as even possible in a healthy relationship. If you give 100% to their wants and needs then you are no longer yourself, but a person they want, but you don't. I see your point, but I just disagree. Like I said before, a 100% submission on both sides would turn both into the other IMO.

I am impressed with your willingness to even go to church & through the motions, like scriptures study, family prayer, etc, even if you don't have a testimony of it all. That is very commendable & just doing that will eventually give you a testimony for sure, if you also live the commandments (especially quiting the porn stuff & drinking, etc.) so your heart can be receptive to the Spirit telling you the truth of the these things. Be completely faithful to her in mind, heart & body so the Spirit can come to you & give you answers to your problems & questions about the Church & Gospel & your marriage.

How many years have I already done this with no results? I don't expect anything to change.

Of course you can't lie you believe it all, but I would think she would be so greatful that you at least are willing to act like you believe until a testimony comes for you. If she still leaves you after all you do & change just for her, than she will almost surely be back soon, after finding out the field was not greener, even with a guy who might be active. I have seen woman after woman leave a decent guy who loves them, who's a good dad & willing to work on the marriage, & they usually come back after a few years realizing their mistake. You are right, it is best for your children to have you in the home with them, their own dad who loves them. Divorce destroys children's lives & usually spouses too.

You would think she would be grateful, but it not feeling like that to me. If she leaves me there will be no coming back. She will have made her choice and will not want me if I am not trying to please her. I'm not a fan of such games. It's not how I work.

If you will watch the 1st scene in the movie "Princess Bride" the "As You Wish" part, & then live like that for her, you not only will gain a testimony of the Gospel, for you will be demonstrating the True Love of Christ in your marriage which brings you the Spirit inside you, but you will fall even more madly in love with her & she will feel it & how can a woman walk away from True Love or stay away from it for long. True Love never ends or gives up & it always wins in the end. The movie "Fireproof" is also a must see & helps demonstrate this True Love.

I don't remember that part of the movie. I'll try and find it on Youtube or somewhere. I did see Fireproof.

Also, remember that providing, while a very vital thing, is not the #1 thing a woman usually needs or wants. Love, companionship & faithfulness are what women usually want more than anything. If I had marriage problems I would not be taking any job that took me away from a spouse for even a couple days. I would live in a tent before I would take a job that could destroy my marriage & family. You must be together as much as possible during the day to hold a marriage together, especially one on the edge. Your marriage may not survive any more absences. Remember, the whole reason you are working is to support her in her role as wife & mother, so if your job does not make her happy than you should find one that does & live wherever she wants.

I feel I am giving her love, companionship although distant at the moment, and faithfulness or fidelity in the marriage. Not faithfulness as in the church. I'm glad you say you would drop your career and live in a tent, but make that a reality is a different matter. I am not going to compromise my career for someone that wants to divorce me and only loves me if I do what they want. That is not unconditional love, but very conditional love she has despite her justifications. I live in the real world, not a fantasy land. Just my view on that. If she wants to be a stay at home mom then she can go where the job takes me.

[Misshalfway]

I am not a big fan of submission in marriage.

[Helgi]

I´m sorry deadinside, that The Church is specific, Family 1st, THEN JOB, THEN CHURCH.

As regards voyeurism and exhibitionism etc. It is a violation of your sacred vow, whether you have lost your faith or not.

If I were in the Bishops place, and you had no interest in repairing your marriage, by ammending YOUR ways. I´d say your wife has grounds for a divorce.

Your wife is your helpmeet (i.e. equal) NOT HELP MATE, i.e. to run after you.

[deadinside]

You can say what you like. I'm glad you would rather be unemployed and be a husband/father, but I disagree. Family does come before job, but I'm not giving up my job for family because a job is necessary for family. I can try and get a job where she wants to be, but I'm not going to quit and have nothing just because she doesn't want to go where I can get a job so she can be close enough to her family so she can talk to them on the phone all day and visit them all night. That is her putting her parents and siblings before family. OUR personal family comes first, not her extended family. It most certainly is her job to follow me where I need to go for work. If I can get a job there and chose to take a job that makes her life more difficult, then that is not putting family first. I completely disagree with your views of just going wherever she wants to go as a stay at home mom. She can do her job wherever I can find mine. If she wants to get a job, then I can try and find one there as well, but family comes first. Our family.

Luckily you are not a bishop. You would not make a very good one. There is no need in our marriage for anything other than ourselves, but if one side is not taking care of the other side, then there will be problems.

[rameumptom]

I AM a big fan of submission in marriage: Submission to God as the third and primary member of the marriage.

Marriages fail for only one reason: selfishness. We think of ourselves rather than the others in the relationship. We ignore God. We ignore our spouse. We seek pleasure in porn, extra-marital affairs, alcohol, or video games. We invent fantasy worlds, where we are married to Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt (pick your poison).

Marriages succeed for the following reasons: Pure love. Selflessness. Kindness. Compassion. Joy. God-like attributes. Charity. We focus our efforts on God and spouse. We seek joy in relating to God, spouse and children, and helping them have a wonderful life. We don't invent fantasy worlds, but create a heaven in our own home. We view our spouse as far sexier and better than Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt. Our spouse is our everlasting soul-mate. There should be no other. Our sex drive and other desires become meaningless, when we put our spouse and God before us. We find joy and find ourselves in losing ourselves in Christ's service.

So the issue is, if we are looking for a selfish relationship, we are guaranteed that it will eventually break down. If we look at a relationship without God in it, we can be sure that it will be difficult to maintain it in this life, and impossible for the next. If we are looking for a relationship with Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt, we should not be in any marriage at all (unless you actually ARE Angelina or Brad). If we try to make promises to our spouse in order to keep appearances up, then we are not faithful in the marriage.

Marriage requires the entire heart, might, mind and strength. It requires joyful sacrifice. It requires absolute selflessness.

[deadinside]

I AM a big fan of submission in marriage: Submission to God as the third and primary member of the marriage.

Marriages fail for only one reason: selfishness. We think of ourselves rather than the others in the relationship. We ignore God. We ignore our spouse. We seek pleasure in porn, extra-marital affairs, alcohol, or video games. We invent fantasy worlds, where we are married to Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt (pick your poison).

Marriages succeed for the following reasons: Pure love. Selflessness. Kindness. Compassion. Joy. God-like attributes. Charity. We focus our efforts on God and spouse. We seek joy in relating to God, spouse and children, and helping them have a wonderful life. We don't invent fantasy worlds, but create a heaven in our own home. We view our spouse as far sexier and better than Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt. Our spouse is our everlasting soul-mate. There should be no other. Our sex drive and other desires become meaningless, when we put our spouse and God before us. We find joy and find ourselves in losing ourselves in Christ's service.

So the issue is, if we are looking for a selfish relationship, we are guaranteed that it will eventually break down. If we look at a relationship without God in it, we can be sure that it will be difficult to maintain it in this life, and impossible for the next. If we are looking for a relationship with Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt, we should not be in any marriage at all (unless you actually ARE Angelina or Brad). If we try to make promises to our spouse in order to keep appearances up, then we are not faithful in the marriage.

Marriage requires the entire heart, might, mind and strength. It requires joyful sacrifice. It requires absolute selflessness.

Much of this is good stuff, but submission has to be defined. Such as should my wife just submit to me and allow me to do whatever I want? That is submission. Should I just do whatever she wants? I do not believe in 100% submission, but there is definitely something to be said for selfishness. I'm sure my wife would love it if I did the dishes, the laundry, cooked, cleaned, and took care of the kids, but what is left for her to do? People still need to feel needed and like they are giving. I need to feel those things as well. That doesn't mean I'm submitting, but being unselfish. You should not do things that are not who you are as a person such as I should not pretend so I can have a temple recommend. My wife should not pretend like she doesn't care that I don't believe the gospel. Those are things you should not submit to. 100% is not possible IMO. Thanks for your comments. The address the submission in a realistic manner that can be agreed upon. I laughed out loud at the Angelina/Brad comment on if you actually are Brad or Angelina.

[foreverafter]

We of course should not do something a spouse asks that is really unrighteous. And of course we only have a certain amount of strength & time in a day, we may not be able to do all they would like right off, somethings take time to gain the ability to do. And we should be asking lovingly for things we would like them to do for us, as we continue to serve their every wish. Thus they get the opportunity to also fall more in love with us from serving our wishes too. If they don't play along & do stuff for us too, than that's true love to keep up our end anyway, lovingly & not resentfully.

[bytor2112]

We invent fantasy worlds, where we are married to Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt (pick your poison).

Angelina Jolie.......NO.....Jessica Alba, now your talkin' Edited June 24, 2009 by bytor2112

[deadinside]

We invent fantasy worlds, where we are married to Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt (pick your poison).

Angelina Jolie.......NO.....Jessica Alba, now your talkin'

My wife would not like this either. She thinks there should be no fantasizing about anyone. True, but it's still the real world and I'm only human. I can be respectful and not say anything, but to expect people to not think about anyone else to me is unrealistic and a fantasy world in itself. She may actually be able to do that, but I can't at this point.

But more to the point, I'm right there with you, bytor2112.

[Hemidakota]

Is there any published information about divorce from a Gospel Doctrine aspect?

Thanks everyone.

Without reading four pages here, are you sealed in the temple?

[pam]

I'm closing this thread as it appears the OP has deleted all of his remarks.

[rameumptom]

Much of this is good stuff, but submission has to be defined. Such as should my wife just submit to me and allow me to do whatever I want? That is submission. Should I just do whatever she wants? I do not believe in 100% submission, but there is definitely something to be said for selfishness. I'm sure my wife would love it if I did the dishes, the laundry, cooked, cleaned, and took care of the kids, but what is left for her to do? People still need to feel needed and like they are giving. I need to feel those things as well. That doesn't mean I'm submitting, but being unselfish. You should not do things that are not who you are as a person such as I should not pretend so I can have a temple recommend. My wife should not pretend like she doesn't care that I don't believe the gospel. Those are things you should not submit to. 100% is not possible IMO. Thanks for your comments. The address the submission in a realistic manner that can be agreed upon. I laughed out loud at the Angelina/Brad comment on if you actually are Brad or Angelina.

My first sentence explained it all. We do not have to submit to our spouse. We submit to God, and then all the rest falls into place. We do things for our spouse, because we are submitting ourselves to God. This ensures the relationship remains healthy for all involved. No one is taken advantage of, because God doesn't take advantage of us. He will only ask us to do the things we should do to ensure a Celestial marriage. For those who have been to the temple, this is what the sealing ceremony and all else is about. In the sealing, we covenant to God, not each other. Our relationship must include God as the focal point, not as a peripheral element.

Edited June 24, 2009 by rameumptom

[rameumptom]

My wife would not like this either. She thinks there should be no fantasizing about anyone. True, but it's still the real world and I'm only human. I can be respectful and not say anything, but to expect people to not think about anyone else to me is unrealistic and a fantasy world in itself. She may actually be able to do that, but I can't at this point.

But more to the point, I'm right there with you, bytor2112.

Satan wants us to believe it is unrealistic. God's realm is the only real and absolute truth. Once we leave the realm of the Celestial, we enter into the realm of relativistic "truths." No longer is there black and white, but shades of gray, and it gets grayer the further we move away from God.

He are "only" human? No, you are a child of God. Don't let Satan deceive you into accepting anything less. Otherwise, you are heeding him, and not God.

Anyone can overcome temptations. While Satan may plant a temptation before us, each of us has within us the agency to choose something else. To say it isn't realistic, because we're human, is a cop-out. "The devil made me do it" just doesn't work.

This is our chance to rise above. Why? Because we will be judged not only for our actions, but also our thoughts and words. Jesus stated that lusting after a woman is committing adultery in one's heart. How clear is that? Why would Jesus warn them, if they couldn't help it? Are we going to claim we are predestined to sin, or are we going to embrace the truth, truly repent (see Alma 22 for a perfect example), and turn to God?

When you start fantasizing, switch the fantasy so you are dreaming of your wife. Envision her as you did on your honeymoon. Or were you thinking of someone else then, too? If you want an eternal marriage, then grow up, take control of your thoughts and actions, and be the man you promised her you would be.