Some Questions so far...

[Soul_Searcher]

If this is in the wrong place please move it, mods. I wasn't sure.

I have been doing the challenge and seem to have been reading a lot. I'm desperately trying to read with an open mind but I just can't help but have lots of questions as I read. I have said before I feel I don't know much about the gospel so this is me trying to understand. I hope this is ok. These are my questions so far, on 1Nephi.

1) Who writes the intro to the Book of Nephi? I thought it was JS but at the end it says, I, Nephi wrote this record.

2) Why does Nephi give fairly detailed accounts of what his Father has said/seen/done? Surely Lehi would have done this himself in the Book of Lehi, that was lost by JS. Also, I would have thought Lehi would have recorded his own revelation to leave Jerusalem. Any insights? (I tried to think of a repetition in other parts of the Book of Mormon from Son and Father, but can't think of any. In which case what DID Lehi write about in his book?)

3) I'm mega confused about the plates. How many, what was written on what? One verse gave me the impression Nephi didn't record any of his life until about 10 years after they left Jerusalem. If anyone could give me the most BASIC explanation possible, literally a 'for dummies' version as I am really confused by this.

4) Why are there 2 Books of Nephi? They seem to flow one in to the next. Any reason? Did Nephi do this or did Joseph when he translated?

5) Who/What is Israel?

6) In the Isaiah portion the Lord promises certain blessings 20:20-21, like having lots of children etc. Its obvious not everyone will get these blessings even though they are righteous so why does the Lord promise this when it blatantly cant happen for everyone?

7) Why does the Lord feel the need to 'burn' people? 'The wicked will be destroyed even by fire'. If he loves all his children why would he want them to die hideously? I have always been taught he loves us ALL regardless. I'm finding it hard to see him as a 'Father' as no Father would want to see their child burn to death. I am struggling with this.

8) And finally....I am always told to be humble, humble myself...God seems to demand constant worship and adoration. It seems slightly hypocritical!! Any insights on this?

Thanks in advance. I know there are some great scriptorians/historians on this site so I hope I can get some answers.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Soul_Searcher

[Dr T]

Interesting and good questions SS.

[Soul_Searcher]

Thanks Dr T I hope someone can answer them :)

[lilered]

If this is in the wrong place please move it, mods. I wasn't sure.

I have been doing the challenge and seem to have been reading a lot. I'm desperately trying to read with an open mind but I just can't help but have lots of questions as I read. I have said before I feel I don't know much about the gospel so this is me trying to understand. I hope this is ok. These are my questions so far, on 1Nephi.

1) Who writes the intro to the Book of Nephi? I thought it was JS but at the end it says, I, Nephi wrote this record.

1 Nephi 1:1

I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days

2) Why does Nephi give fairly detailed accounts of what his Father has said/seen/done? Surely Lehi would have done this himself in the Book of Lehi, that was lost by JS. Also, I would have thought Lehi would have recorded his own revelation to leave Jerusalem. Any insights? (I tried to think of a repetition in other parts of the Book of Mormon from Son and Father, but can't think of any. In which case what DID Lehi write about in his book?)

Joseph Smith began with the book of Lehi when he was translating the Book of Mormon. It was a record that Mormon had abridged from the plates of Lehi. After he had 116 pages of manuscript that he had translated from this book, Joseph gave the manuscript to Martin Harris, who had briefly served as Joseph’s scribe in the translation of the Book of Mormon. The pages were then lost. Joseph did not retranslate the book of Lehi to replace the lost manuscript but instead translated other related accounts from the gold plates (see the introductions to D&C 3, 10). These other accounts now are the first six books of the Book of Mormon.

3) I'm mega confused about the plates. How many, what was written on what? One verse gave me the impression Nephi didn't record any of his life until about 10 years after they left Jerusalem. If anyone could give me the most BASIC explanation possible, literally a 'for dummies' version as I am really confused by this.

Brass, A record of the Jews from the beginning to 600 B.C., containing many writings of the prophets (1 Ne. 5: 10-16). This record was kept by Laban, one of the Jewish elders in Jerusalem. While Lehi and his family were in the wilderness, Lehi sent his sons back to Jerusalem to obtain this record (1 Ne. 3-4). (For further information, see “A Brief Explanation about the Book of Mormon,” which is in the Book of Mormon. )

Gold, A record written on plates of gold. It tells the story of two great civilizations on the American continents. Joseph Smith translated and published a portion of these plates. This translation is called the Book of Mormon. (For more information, see “Introduction” and “Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith” in the front of the Book of Mormon.)

Plates of Nephi both large and small.

4) Why are there 2 Books of Nephi? They seem to flow one in to the next. Any reason? Did Nephi do this or did Joseph when he translated?

Most of the Nephite record pertains to three historical periods: the time of Lehi and his sons (c. 600-500 B.C.), the events preceding and following the coming of Christ (c. 150 B.C.-A.D. 34), and the destruction of the Nephites (c. A.D. 300-420). Thus, the relatively large book of Alma covers only thirty-nine years, while the much smaller books of Omni and 4 Nephi each cover more than two hundred years.

5) Who/What is Israel?

The name Israel (Hebrew for "God rules" or "God shines") has two particularly distinctive modern applications to Latter-day Saints.

First, it refers to members of the Church.

Second, it points to modern descendants of ancient Israelite stock, who, because of God's fidelity to ancient covenants made with their forebears, are to become recipients of his blessings in the latter days.

Third: there is a Geographicial location which is referred to as Israel.

6) In the Isaiah portion the Lord promises certain blessings 20:20-21, like having lots of children etc. Its obvious not everyone will get these blessings even though they are righteous so why does the Lord promise this when it blatantly cant happen for everyone?

What the lord is doing is promising that his seed will be plentiful as opposed to be wiped out by enemies.

7) Why does the Lord feel the need to 'burn' people? 'The wicked will be destroyed even by fire'. If he loves all his children why would he want them to die hideously? I have always been taught he loves us ALL regardless. I'm finding it hard to see him as a 'Father' as no Father would want to see their child burn to death. I am struggling with this.

God wants us all to return to him, he loves us and cares about each of us. If we are wrong he wants us to repent. However, do not forget that as part of the Plan, there was a war in heaven (pre-existance) and Satan and his followers were expelled. Therefore, those (inrepented) that continue to fight on the side of Satan are an enemy of Christianity and therefore God.

8) And finally....I am always told to be humble, humble myself...God seems to demand constant worship and adoration. It seems slightly hypocritical!! Any insights on this?

Exodus 20:3 - Thou shalt have no other bgods before me.

Exodus 20: 5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

God wants us to worship him and only him and have one purpose in life and that is to live as he desires us to, so that we may one day return to him for our inheritance.

Thanks in advance. I know there are some great scriptorians/historians on this site so I hope I can get some answers.

That's my take on your questions, hope this helps

[Maureen]

7)...I'm finding it hard to see him as a 'Father' as no Father would want to see their child burn to death...

Hi SS, this comment will not answer any of your questions but I would just reply with "Really?" Not in questioning God as our Father but in being surprised that you would not realize that humans can be very cruel creatures. Mankind can sometimes be the cruelest towards their own children. In some cultures "honor deaths" are the custom when a parent is upset with a child's actions.

I definitely see God as a very different Father figure. I see God as the Father in the prodigal son story. Gives his children the freedom to choose and is overjoyed to see them return home.

8) And finally....I am always told to be humble, humble myself...God seems to demand constant worship and adoration...

I've never viewed God as "demanding" because he does give us the ability to choose. But when it comes to God's nature, worship and adoration seem to go hand in hand with someone who is Godlike. I think that's what separates God from his creation, we provide the worship, God accepts the worship. That's why God is God.

M.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Maureen

[BenRaines]

Mortal death is the only way back to Heavenly Father. It is through death and ultimately resurrection that we are able to return.

That same argument would have us questioning God with cancer deaths, other severe types of death, etc. I do not believe that he pulls strings over our lives.

Ben Raines

[tubaloth]

I guess you either book mark or buy a copy of the Institute manual.

Institute Student Manuals

If anything take a look at that appendix to the Manual, they out line some good things, like the different plates. That should help in some of the confusion.

1) Who writes the intro to the Book of Nephi? I thought it was JS but at the end it says, I, Nephi wrote this record.

Nephi, the bigger intros to chapters are written by the Author or later Mormon as he is abridging different records together.

The actually chapter headings that kind of review the chapter was done later by Talmage (I think) and then Elder McConkie.

2) Why does Nephi give fairly detailed accounts of what his Father has said/seen/done?

Because Nephi was told to give the same account, in doing this Nephi needs to explain why they are leaving Jerusalem so he quotes a lot of his father. I'm sure you realize the Book of Lehi was lost. Not only does this show that God knew what was going to happen with the book of mormon, but any author wouldn't waste all there time in creating two accounts. You just do one account.

3) I'm mega confused about the plates. How many, what was written on what?

See the Book of Mormon Institute manual appendix.

Mostly there was two sets of plates, the large plates and small plates. Nephi does start the large plates after he has come to the americas.

4) Why are there 2 Books of Nephi? They seem to flow one in to the next. Any reason? Did Nephi do this or did Joseph when he translated?

Off the top of my head I'm not sure. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with small or large plates, but it seems more to deal with a new chapter being in the Americas, in Nephi's lift.

5) Who/What is Israel?

This is Old Testament. Abraham, Issac, Jacob has his named changed to Isreal! Had 12 Sons. So Israel is a nation, but also a linage.

6) In the Isaiah portion the Lord promises certain blessings 20:20-21, like having lots of children etc. Its obvious not everyone will get these blessings even though they are righteous so why does the Lord promise this when it blatantly cant happen for everyone?

Some blessings are physical, some blessings are spiritual. With Isaiah we have to figure out which it is, or both.

7) Why does the Lord feel the need to 'burn' people? 'The wicked will be destroyed even by fire'. If he loves all his children why would he want them to die hideously? I have always been taught he loves us ALL regardless. I'm finding it hard to see him as a 'Father' as no Father would want to see their child burn to death. I am struggling with this.

Burning is more symbolic. Yes there are times where people did burn, but burning is more of a state of torment. If you disobey God, then you are left to suffer your sins, or really the torment of Satan. This is LIKE a fire!

8) And finally....I am always told to be humble, humble myself...God seems to demand constant worship and adoration. It seems slightly hypocritical!! Any insights on this?

God realizes where our Salvation lies. God doesn't do this to build himself up. God doesn't need followers. God does all of this for us and our salvation, really God does it because he Loves us! But God realizes we are a selfish mined humans. In the pre-mortal life God taught us things we needed to learn. Our Goal has always to become more like He is. So now we are on this earth, God is trying to do all he can to motivate us to in a way stay on the path towards him. If we start to look a different direction then God knows we are going to wander that way. Once we realize all is done because of God's love, then that is the prefect motivator.

[rameumptom]

If this is in the wrong place please move it, mods. I wasn't sure.

I have been doing the challenge and seem to have been reading a lot. I'm desperately trying to read with an open mind but I just can't help but have lots of questions as I read. I have said before I feel I don't know much about the gospel so this is me trying to understand. I hope this is ok. These are my questions so far, on 1Nephi.

1) Who writes the intro to the Book of Nephi? I thought it was JS but at the end it says, I, Nephi wrote this record.

Rameumptom: Anciently, books were often begun with a "colophon", an opening statement or story that explains the story and who the author is. After finishing his portion of the small plates, and prior to giving them to his brother Jacob, Nephi would have written the opening statement. You'll also note that 1 Nephi also starts with a colophon, a standard action in beginning a new book.

2) Why does Nephi give fairly detailed accounts of what his Father has said/seen/done? Surely Lehi would have done this himself in the Book of Lehi, that was lost by JS. Also, I would have thought Lehi would have recorded his own revelation to leave Jerusalem. Any insights? (I tried to think of a repetition in other parts of the Book of Mormon from Son and Father, but can't think of any. In which case what DID Lehi write about in his book?)

Rameumptom: Actually, Nephi's accounts for his Father are very brief, given the amount of time they spent in the desert. Nephi's goal, in regards to the small plates, was to write the spiritual experiences that greatly impacted him and would impact his children. I'm sure Lehi's account gave a much greater detail, as most of Nephi's account details only some of Lehi's most spiritual accounts, or Nephi's reaction to those events. For example, Lehi's first visions led to their leaving Jerusalem, something that would greatly affect Nephi and his brethren. The Vision of the Tree of Life was greatly expanded by Nephi when he had a similar vision. Nephi describes his parents' trials, only in regard to how they relate to him and his brethren (broken steel bow, rebellion on the ship, family blessings).

3) I'm mega confused about the plates. How many, what was written on what? One verse gave me the impression Nephi didn't record any of his life until about 10 years after they left Jerusalem. If anyone could give me the most BASIC explanation possible, literally a 'for dummies' version as I am really confused by this.

Rameumptom: The small plates were written about 20 years after leaving Jerusalem. However, Nephi had been writing a longer account (the large plates), containing more of the history. IOW, Nephi kept a journal over the years, but then was commanded by God to make an abridgement of his long writings, to contain primarily the spiritual events. I've done the same, having my journals, but then writing a life history that abridges it to the more important events (my journals sometimes tell what I had for breakfast, which probably won't matter to my great-grandchildren that much).

4) Why are there 2 Books of Nephi? They seem to flow one in to the next. Any reason? Did Nephi do this or did Joseph when he translated?

Rameumptom: I would wager that Nephi separated the books: one for the time in the Old World, and one in the New Promised Land. It is possible that

it was easier to manage two smaller books than one larger one.

5) Who/What is Israel?

Rameumptom: Physical Israel are the literal descendants of Jacob (renamed Israel by God). Today, they comprise the Jews and the Lost Tribes of Israel. Where are the lost tribes? Don't know, they are "lost." Lehi and his descendants were also direct descendants of Israel through Joseph. We are not certain how many Native Americans would contain any direct lineage/DNA back to Lehi, as they were a rather small group in a large hemisphere.

Some were culturally adopted into the physical house of Israel. Anciently, this required circumcision to be performed as part of the covenant. We see this also in the Book of Mormon, where other peoples (Mulekites, Lamanites, Zoramites, and others) become Nephites in every sense of the word (except biologically).

There is also Spiritual Israel. This consists of all those who accept Jesus Christ through faith, repentance, baptism by immersion of those with authority for the remission of sins, and reception of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. In this way, all Gentiles (non-Israelites) can become adopted members in the family of Abraham, receiving all the blessings of the gospel and priesthood (see Book of Abraham 1).

In God's eyes, both are important, but the spiritual Israel is most important. When the Jews claimed Abraham as their ancestor, John the Baptist proclaimed that God could raise up seed to Abraham from the rocks.

6) In the Isaiah portion the Lord promises certain blessings 20:20-21, like having lots of children etc. Its obvious not everyone will get these blessings even though they are righteous so why does the Lord promise this when it blatantly cant happen for everyone?

Rameumptom: once again, there are both physical and spiritual components to the promises we find in the scriptures. Abraham means "father of nations", and the blessings made through Abraham, which Isaiah repeats, is to have a large posterity. This is the physical component. There is also a spiritual component. Once again, in Abraham 1, we find that people are adopted into families through righteousness and the priesthood. People not directly descended from Abraham, Jacob or Nephi, become their spiritual descendants through embracing the gospel. In D&C 84:33-38 we read that those who receive and magnify the priesthoods become "the sons of Moses and of Aaron, and of the seed of Abraham."

There is one more spiritual component to this. We believe that those who receive the highest level of priesthood, in the temple, are married/sealed for eternity. Those who receive a fulness of God's blessings will be given the blessing of having children through the eternities. So, for the faithful, Isaiah's promise literally comes true in the eternities.

7) Why does the Lord feel the need to 'burn' people? 'The wicked will be destroyed even by fire'. If he loves all his children why would he want them to die hideously? I have always been taught he loves us ALL regardless. I'm finding it hard to see him as a 'Father' as no Father would want to see their child burn to death. I am struggling with this.

Rameumptom: God does not wish to harm anyone. Yet there are natural laws that must be followed, or we receive the natural consequence of our choices. If we walk off a tall building, gravity will deliver a consequence. If we only eat junk food, or go bulimic, it will eventually affect our health.

When we sin, we separate ourselves from God. We become the pawns of Satan. Nephi's brother Jacob stated that without the atonement, we would be forced to be devils, even angels of Satan. The issue is if we choose to totally embrace the atonement or not.

God knows how terrible and painful such separation is. Jesus warned us in D&C 19 to repent or suffer even as he did, which suffering caused even God to bleed from every pore. This isn't something God imposes upon us. We impose it upon ourselves by separating ourselves from God. Alma explained his conversion to his son, Helaman. He told him that as he lay for 3 days in a coma (I think it was a Near Death Experience), he suffered intensely for his sins. Just the thought of going into the presence of God filled him with horror. It wasn't until he fully and totally repented and called upon God to rescue him from hell that he was snatched from pain, and delivered into Christ's light (see Alma 36).

Alma taught the poor Zoramites that they were blessed because they had been compelled to be humble, and even more blessed are they who are humble without having to be compelled. God will do anything possible to have us repent and saved from Outer Darkness, except take away our agency. He will not rescue us from the fire or pain of our sins, until we ask him to do so. It is a natural consequence for our choosing to separate ourselves from God and his blessings, nothing God imposes upon us.

8) And finally....I am always told to be humble, humble myself...God seems to demand constant worship and adoration. It seems slightly hypocritical!! Any insights on this?

Rameumptom: Humility is an attribute of God. Jesus humbled himself to the depths of humility, in order to save us. He patiently waded through tribulation and trials, so that we could be snatched out of the clutches of Satan. Pride is what keeps people from repenting and believing on Christ. In a great talk on Pride, President Ezra Taft Benson stated that pride causes enmity to God. We literally separate ourselves from God. Remember Lehi and Nephi's vision of the Tree of Life? Those at the tree of Life had humbled themselves enough to partake of Christ's atonement. Meanwhile, the proud entered the great and spacious building and mocked. They rejected Christ's atonement. Others, through pride, refused to grasp the iron rod (word of God) and follow it carefully to the Tree of Life. Instead, they wandered off into mists of darkness. Those mists are the same darkness that the proud and sinful Alma found himself in. Only repentance and faith and humility could get him rescued from the mists and pain, and back onto the path of holiness.

We must learn to submit ourselves fully to God, if we wish to have his blessings. He is all or nothing. We repent fully, or we don't repent fully. We follow him, or we don't follow him. Our steps may not be as quick as others, but if we are going in the right direction (towards the Tree of Life), then we are on the right path. Pride leads us away from Christ and Life, and towards Satan and eternal darkness and damnation.

Thanks in advance. I know there are some great scriptorians/historians on this site so I hope I can get some answers.

I hope this helps. Edited July 7, 2009 by rameumptom

[rameumptom]

The actually chapter headings that kind of review the chapter was done later by Talmage (I think) and then Elder McConkie.

Rameumptom: It was Orson Pratt and later Elder McConkie and a correlation committee. Chances are, we are ready to have the chapter headings redone again.

[Misshalfway]

I wrote a big long answer and it got deleted. Oh well.

I wanted to suggest the Institute manual as well. I think it can really answer the questions you ask probably better than most of us can do here.

And to understand "Israel" better it might help to go back to the beginning. .... back to Abraham Isaac and Jacob and how Jacob's name was changed to Israel and that this is why the 12 sons and all their decedents are called the tribes of Israel.

Just remember too, that all the blessings of Abraham are passed thru his grandson to all the tribes thru all the generations of time. Everyone who is baptized will have access to these blessings and anyone who doesn't directly come thru these blood lines will be adopted into the family so that they will have access to the blessings as well.

And with regards to the 'burning" question, I just wanted to say that I don't think God wants to see any of his children suffer. Listen to his pleadings in the scriptures for his children to obey. Remember that there are eternal consequences for all choices.....good ones and not so pleasant ones. This is the way of the universe. God knows this. The whole point of the Atonement was so that man wouldn't have to suffer the consequences of sin if they would repent and come unto Christ. But the consequences of sin are affixed. God can't change them. Love can't change them. It was only the Atonement that could make a way possible so that we would have a way out of these punishments. Study 2 Nephi 2. There might be some insight in that chapter that might help. And I also wanted to say that my understanding of the "burning" described in scripture is more of a figurative illustration. I don't think there is a place of hell with actual fire and lava and all that. I think the burning will be an emotional and spiritual experience that will sear our souls as if by real fire.

And with regards to the humility/hypocrisy question, I just wanted to say that God has so much to teach us and to give to the ones he can trust. I think it is the process of humbling ourselves that helps us become teachable. God isn't greedy with his blessings. He doesn't just want us worshipping him for the eternities so that he can consume the glory of it like the depots who reign on this earth. Instead, his is absolutely wanting to bless us with everything he has. But the giving of those blessings can only happen under conditions of obedience. This is eternal law that even God himself cannot break. So, he commands that we humble ourselves and submit. Then.....when we are sufficiently prepared, he will bless us with everything he has to give us.

1 Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Edited July 6, 2009 by Misshalfway