Proof that God Answers Prayer???

[havejoy]

Come on people. Snow is doing nothing more than getting you to think. .

This thinking is what I have a BIG problem with. Not only does it hurt but the few times I've been able to do it I've gotten in a lot of trouble.

[Guest missingsomething]

Sorry but I also agree with what Snow said in the other thread. Let's be fair. He didn't flat out say that God does not listen to other people's prayers to help someone. He just mentioned that God probably doesn't intercede in the job interviewing process based on getting others to pray. There is a huge difference in never and in this one instance.

Did you read through the entire thread? At very minimum you would have to admit he was trying to provoke... and really pam... is that in compliance with the spirit? So is the motives elevating people?

[pam]

Yes I did as a matter of fact. Though Snow may have had a hand in starting it I did see what could be taken as attacks going both directions.

And Gatorman if you feel after 16 posts on this site that you need to take the matter up with Heather about having "LDS" removed from the site name that is your right of course.

[john doe]

I can't offer proof that God answers prayers. But I have seen and felt too many things to doubt that He does. And no, I won't be sharing those experiences here.

[Snow]

OK Snow then what is the point in our religion ... in our beliefs??? We really can not prove any of it can we??? so true so why even bother???????

A friend said the proof is Humanity still exists

Your line of questioning presupposes 2 things:

1. For there to be a point (have value) religion must be proved, and

2. For there to be value, it must be true.

Both are incorrect.

Regardless of whether or not the LDS gospel is true, I get lots of value - there is a point.

-social aspect

-intellectual stimulation

-moral code

-support systems

-greater meaning in life

-spiritual sustenance

-etc.

I believe that the Catholic faith cannot be proved and is incorrect (I assume you agree) but millions and millions of Catholics still benefit greatly from it.

[Snow]

If you're looking for physical, perceivable, and tangible evidence of things that are spiritual, that's impossible. You cannot prove a negative.

Huh?

I am asking for proof of a positive, not a negative.

[Snow]

...

Edited July 29, 2009 by Snow

[Snow]

My question to you snow is, are you looking for an answer or a debate? Questions are always answered if you are humble to the answers. If you already have it in your mind that it is not true, you will not be able to feel and hear the small voice that comes from the spirt. Here in mortality with limited ablility we cannot prove answers to your question. The only way to know is to ask with real intent and willing to listen before you can be ready to hear the truth.

I already know the answer, hence I am not looking for it. God may answer some prayers but he definitely does not answer others... think of a rape victim that prays that the attacker will not rape, torture and murder.... to no avail.

[Snow]

I have to agree with Snow, in that there is no 'incontrovertible proof' that God answers prayers. If we accept, for the sake of argument, the scientific application of proof (more correctly: evidence) we would need replicable, verifiable results that can be reliably observed, quantified or categorized, and measured.

But here's the catch: you can't observe, quantify, and categorize answers to prayer in a replicable and verifiable way. And that's because there's no way to objectively observe many of the things we pray for.

Here's the thing about prayer though: we weren't ever intended to have incontrovertible proof that God answers prayer. That was the entire point of the mortal existence: to act in accordance with God's commands without proof that God exists or answers prayer. To have incontrovertible proof that God answers prayers would completely violate one of the fundamental aspects of the Plan of Happiness. For that reason, it seems kind of silly to me to claim that such proof exists.

Thank you and well said. Alas we walk by faith and conviction, not proof and certain knowledge.

[StallionMcBeastly]

I think a person can personally have an experience that will be undeniable proof to them, but that proof will never be able to be used as proof to convince someone else.

I think that's the way God wanted it - we each need to seek our own personal answers.

[Snow]

I think a person can personally have an experience that will be undeniable proof to them, but that proof will never be able to be used as proof to convince someone else.

1. That, of course, is a completely unprovable supposition.

2. Yep - I hear that all the time from non-LDS people of other religions who are certain that God informed them that their (non-LDS) faith is true and correct.

[Snow]

Well, based on the other thread, I don't share your opinion on snow. But, all I can do is pray that is he not like unto Korohor, for his words and actions, that I have seen, suggest he is.

Well thank you Gatorman. That's nice of you.... and in return, I pray that you are not like unto Latoya Jackson, you know, which your words and actions seem to...

[Guest missingsomething]

I think a person can personally have an experience that will be undeniable proof to them, but that proof will never be able to be used as proof to convince someone else.

I think that's the way God wanted it - we each need to seek our own personal answers.

Stallion,

Thats why the missionaries repeat the motto continuously... dont believe us... we invite you to pray for these things yoruself!

I agree stallion.

[Guest missingsomething]

btw... I thought your implied comparison of me to the anti-Christ was a doosey.

infact snow.. Im not an idiot and would not compare you... Was merely answering your call for proof with the scriptures. Because had I merely said that those who ask for proof of something are tempting God... well you would not have believed that and spewed some off beat reasoning that may or may not agree with the church's teachings.

I am sure you will agree, just because someone is baptized, does not mean they follow the Gospel or the prophets or have a pure intent.

[Avrham]

hello Snow great question btw my Grandfather survived WW2 by prayer something he never discussed with anyone we found out about at his funeral service by the local pastor who said "that was the only thing he would admitt to doing ,talking to God during the war might have looked after him" well it might not be proof(evidence) but he went to the local parish every-sunday ?? since 1946 and just passed away recently:):):)

I like your question I personelly don't find it faith attacking but delves into question's maybe some people cannot/won't comprehend or find offensive I purely take it as a objective question which i think(i could be wrong) your intent is

Just thinking outside the sqaure maybe

[hordak]

I can not prove that God created the Earth in 6 24 hour periods versus some million years.

I can not prove that Man and all creatures were created by a snap of God's fingers versus evolution.

But, I certainly am not willing to risk finding out by challenging Heavenly Father.

You wouldn't be challenging God. You would be challenging mans unscientific reading of the bible.

Same thing Galileo did. And he was Right.

[Gatorman]

Actually, it comes down to faith. I do not have to debunk evolution. Why? Because, it is possible that evolution is the method God used. However, there is no proof of it. So, it is possible that Heavenly Father snapped his fingers, twinkled his nose, or simply thought and it became. Point is, I have faith that Heavenly Father created the Earth and all the creatures in it. The 'method' is unimportant. The proof is in the life all around me every day and it is irrefutable.

I have faith that prayer has the power to help us, the power to strengthen us, and the power to ask Heavenly Father for his intercession. The proof, irrefutable, is in the scriptures. So, the question is not, can I provide irrefutable proof. The question is, does one accept the scriptures as the word of God, and as such, as irrefutable proof of, in this case, the power and value of prayer to help us, even if it is others praying on our behalf for Heavenly Father to intercede in a job interview. The proof, for me, is irrefutable. And, my faith suggests that the same would be true of anyone else who has truly accepted the Gospel, the prophets, and the scriptures.

[Snow]

infact snow.. Im not an idiot and would not compare you... Was merely answering your call for proof with the scriptures. Because had I merely said that those who ask for proof of something are tempting God... well you would not have believed that and spewed some off beat reasoning that may or may not agree with the church's teachings.

I am sure you will agree, just because someone is baptized, does not mean they follow the Gospel or the prophets or have a pure intent.

Well now - it seems that I've just been accused of 1. being baptized, 2. not following the gospel, 3. not following the prophets, not having pure intent. Earlier you accused me of being a quintessential sinner, of not having faith in God, and you compared me to the anti-Christ (and then denied it, but your post is still there to be read).

What's up with all the personal attacks? ... especially since you said that contention was bad, you were no longer going to respond to my posts???

Here's my suggestion... lighten up. It's not like anyone has accused you of anything worse than failing to think critically.

btw - excellent use of the word "spewing." It's ever so colorful and charged with frothiness.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Snow
grammar

[Snow]

hello Snow great question btw my Grandfather survived WW2 by prayer something he never discussed with anyone we found out about at his funeral service by the local pastor who said "that was the only thing he would admitt to doing ,talking to God during the war might have looked after him" well it might not be proof(evidence) but he went to the local parish every-sunday ?? since 1946 and just passed away recently:):):)

I like your question I personelly don't find it faith attacking but delves into question's maybe some people cannot/won't comprehend or find offensive I purely take it as a objective question which i think(i could be wrong) your intent is

Just thinking outside the sqaure maybe

Thanks to your Grandfather's service in the war. His faith in God is commendable.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Snow

[Snow]

Here's an illustration of one of the points that I am making.

Last week in the Church's Deseret News, there are a number of stories about a (now former) seminary principle who is accused of 21 felony counts of rape and forcible sodomy with one of the children in his seminary.

It reminds me of a case a few years ago when we were called into an urgent priesthood meeting and it was revealed that one of the stalwarts of our ward - former bishop, high councilman, senior missionary, etc had been excommunicated and was going to plead guilty... turns out he was a serial child abuser and had used his standing in the church to commit his crimes.

Let's suppose that neither of these two sorry characters were psychopaths - that at one time, they probably had some sort of sincere desires to serve. The principle from Utah was probably in a paid position and had probably prayed that he would land the job. The bishop probably prayed for strength and guidance to fulfill his calling.

Let's also suppose that the parents of all those victimized children had prayed for the safety and welfare of their children.

So what's the deal?

That God is omniscient is fundamental to our faith so let's agree that God hears and listens to our prayers. Did God respond to the prayers of parents who wished safety for their children? No, obviously not. Are we to conclude that God doesn't want what is best for us? No - we believe that God is benevolent. So what is the deal?

Obviously God just stays out of a lot of things - a hand off approach.

Certainly God knew that the bishop would be an abuser and the principle would be a rapist. Would God deliberately supernaturally intercede to place both criminals in their positions knowing the damage they would do?

I guess the possibilities are two-fold:

1. No - God didn't supernaturally intercede to place the two villians.

2. Yes - He did.

If 2 is your answer - how to you justify it? Do you claim that the horrible crimes were for the good? Do you claim that the crimes were not really bad?

What's the simplest explanation: That God wants what's good for us, but in large measure just stays out of a lot of stuff.

Edited July 26, 2009 by pam
Had patients instead of parents

[miztrniceguy]

very simple...i'm happily married with 2 children....i prayed for it and i have it.

[Snow]

very simple...i'm happily married with 2 children....i prayed for it and i have it.

And I prayer for a new Cadillac CTS.

If there is one in my driveway - is that proof that God put it there?

[pam]

I agree with that Snow. God doesn't intervene in every aspect of our lives here on earth. Unfortunately bad things do happen to good people despite prayers. If he were to intervene on everything what would be the point of our existence here?

One example I could give..I have teenagers that drive. I can pray and pray that they will be safe out on the roads. Unfortunately the decisions they make when driving (speeding, cell phones etc) can have an adverse affect on them. Also taking into consideration the decisions made by other driver affects them as well.

God expects us to have trials and challenges. He knows that terrible things will happen. You have mentioned numerous times rape, murder etc. He KNOWS this. Does this mean he hasn't answered our prayers? Nope..but he does let life run it's course on numerous things. Does that make him a cruel or unloving God? No to that as well.

We knew in the preexistence that life here on earth would not always be ice cream and lollipops. There would be some liver and onions along the way.

Edited July 26, 2009 by pam

[Snow]

I agree with that Snow.

That's unfortunate. I'll pray for you.

[beefche]

I agree, Snow. I think God lets things happen because every one of us has agency. God cannot interfere all the time. He can choose to intervene and we have examples of such times in the scriptures.

I think prayer is 2 fold. It is to ask for blessings that are reserved for us. It is also to help us rely on God. Just because I receive something I desired doesn't mean that God answered my prayer specifically. However, I will give Him praise for it because I know that I exist because of Him and anything good for me ultimately comes from Him.