The Bible is so confusing!

[ztodd]

So how does a creature's DNA get mutated anyway? Does his/her/it's brain just decide to mutate the DNA?

[bmy-]

See... you are getting your tail feathers all ruffled, telling me I am uneducated, etc... Perfect example, thank you. You accuse me of "misrepresenting <my> faulty knowledge on internet forums", when it actuality I haven't even said anything on the subject (except that I disagree), and I ignore Darwinist discussions in other forums.

Frankly.. it's moreso ignorance in regard to evolutionary biology. If you understood it.. it's pretty much impossible to deny. It was not that <you> were spouting faulty information as fact.. it is that creationists do (and more specifically galations220).

You seemed to be in support of galations220 when you said.. (and by supporting his post you support his arguments, so in a way.. you were defending his faulty information) My mistake if you were not

So there are seriously members who believe in the doctrines of the LDS church concerning "eternal progression" that believe we evolved from some creature that monkeys also evolved from? Wow.

Now on to the rest..

Why does it matter to you what I believe on the subject?

Why do Darwinists go into religious chat rooms and boards (not saying you do) and go on and on about it?

Why so much insistence on something so unimportant?

1) What you believe.. odds are.. your (possible) children will believe. You're free to ignore facts and data all you would like.. but give those potential or real children a chance to love science, etc.

2) Promoting critical thinking and teaching people that specific arguments are full of holes. You can also learn a few things and make a few great friends while you're at it.

3) It's a very important topic, IMO. It's really the scientific reasoning vs blind faith debate.

Edited August 7, 2009 by bmy-

[EruditioSalvatus]

So how does a creature's DNA get mutated anyway? Does his/her/it's brain just decide to mutate the DNA?

If you believe Jacob from the bible DNA mutates when goats mate in front of white rods...

[bmy-]

So how does a creature's DNA get mutated anyway? Does his/her/it's brain just decide to mutate the DNA?

This is a great link for you to read. It's really interesting stuff

What Causes DNA Mutations?

[Guest Believer_1829]

Frankly.. it's moreso ignorance in regard to evolutionary biology. If you understood it.. it's pretty much impossible to deny. It was not that <you> were spouting faulty information as fact.. it is that creationists do (and more specifically galations220).

You seemed to be in support of galations220 when you said.. (and by supporting his post you support his arguments, so in a way.. you were defending his faulty information) My mistake if you were not

Now on to the rest..

1) What you believe.. odds are.. your (possible) children will believe. You're free to ignore facts and data all you would like.. but give those potential or real children a chance to love science, etc.

2) Promoting critical thinking and teaching people that specific arguments are full of holes. You can also learn a few things and make a few great friends while you're at it.

3) It's a very important topic, IMO. It's really the scientific reasoning vs blind faith debate.

"It's about the children"...

That must be in the "Darwinist Playbook on how to deal with Religious Nut Jobs", seeing as how I see it all the time. How is is possibly any of your business how I raise my children? Are you one of those militant Darwinists who believes teaching your children a Creationist viewpoint amounts to child abuse and anyone who does should have their children taken from them?

You assume I don't use critical thinking skills because I don't agree with you, nice. I think I will stick with the friends I have, I have found Darwinists to be pseudo-intellectual jerks, who oftentimes believe themselves to be the smartest person in the room, exasperated by the fact the have to be surrounded by fools.

How is it important? How will it possibly affect my life here of my salvation in the hereafter?

[EruditioSalvatus]

I suppose it's as important as understanding, say, how fiber optics or medicines work -not really unless you want to increase your and the world's mantle of learning.

So if the concept of genetics, evolution, and red delicious apples are out what about an immobile, flat earth?

[Guest Believer_1829]

"When they are learned they think they are wise..."

[EruditioSalvatus]

Oh, I think lots of things I know to be wrong. Despite this I can easily keep ideas and seasoned facts separate (despite themselves sometimes).

However, that's more a dodge than an answer. The bible says, rather plainly, that the earth does not move and sits on a foundation of pillars. Allegorical or literal?

[Guest Believer_1829]

Does the Bible teach that the Earth is flat?

[EruditioSalvatus]

I'll take that as a 'yes'

I don't really see there being much more to this conversation

[Guest Believer_1829]

Why am I not surprised?

[bmy-]

"It's about the children"...

That must be in the "Darwinist Playbook on how to deal with Religious Nut Jobs", seeing as how I see it all the time. How is is possibly any of your business how I raise my children? Are you one of those militant Darwinists who believes teaching your children a Creationist viewpoint amounts to child abuse and anyone who does should have their children taken from them?

You assume I don't use critical thinking skills because I don't agree with you, nice. I think I will stick with the friends I have, I have found Darwinists to be pseudo-intellectual jerks, who oftentimes believe themselves to be the smartest person in the room, exasperated by the fact the have to be surrounded by fools.

How is it important? How will it possibly affect my life here of my salvation in the hereafter?

I can't help but look at certain children who never had a chance and feel pity. They're happy -- and that's very important to me -- but is that really everything? Take those FLDS kids for example.. do you not feel sorry for them? I sure as heck do.

As to how it's important.. doctrinally speaking -- what we learn here we will take with us into the celestial kingdom and further. The more you learn now the less you will have to learn later.

TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy is a good place to start if you ever want to learn a little bit.

[bytor2112]

No, don't do that.... they may talk about Mormonism and it may be full of lies, but not all their writings are. the site authors has really done a good job in answering so many of the major errors, difficulties, and contradictions going book by book that the site cannot be dismissed as a whole.

Of all the Apologetic sites I've found, this one is the best I've seen. I know how you feel about these people because i was a Catholic growing up; but do not dismiss this site outright.

So....they only lie about Mormons eh? And that makes you trust the other stuff?????? Here is an example of a CARM lie and there are plenty more....but here is one regarding Christian beliefs.

Question: Do you know who the Holy Spirit is?

(Mormon example....there were others as well)

The Mormons teach that He(Holy Spirit) is a male personage of flesh and bones. -CARM

Another CARM lie or at best misstatement. I assume the former, since they hold themselves out to be experts.

[antsyl]

Stop reading the Bible with your head and prayerfully ask God to reveal Himself to you. I would say even based on the name you chose for this forum that you are on the fence about faith. Remember this,

satan owns the fence. Ask God to change your heart. Before I came to Christ I could not read a sentence in the Bible. It made no sense at all. Now when I read it, I see God talking to me and my life, not just some stories. Quit using your head, use your heart. God seeks a broken and contrite heart. When you understand that your sins have accrued a debt that you will never be able to pay. A spotless Lamb took those sins on Himself and paid that debt for you. God said He is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but thru Him. Accept the free gift of Christ in your heart and he will reveal the mysteries of the Bible to you. When that happens you will look back on your post here and wonder why you ever wrote them.

[SortOfMormon]

Oh, I think lots of things I know to be wrong. Despite this I can easily keep ideas and seasoned facts separate (despite themselves sometimes).

However, that's more a dodge than an answer. The bible says, rather plainly, that the earth does not move and sits on a foundation of pillars. Allegorical or literal?

Where does it say that?

[Guest Godless]

Where does it say that?

Job 9:6 makes mention of trembling the pillars of the Earth.

1 Samuel 2:8 also makes mention of these pillars.

I can't believe I missed an ID/evolution discussion!

[Galatians220]

Hi guys, sorry for the long delay; I've been pretty busy lately so I may not be able to respond any time soon. Hopefully by next week, I will be able to submit my answers to you all. However, after my submission, I will only have time to talk with only one person so decide among yourselves who will be the group spokes person.

God bless :)

[Galatians220]

So....they only lie about Mormons eh? And that makes you trust the other stuff?????? Here is an example of a CARM lie and there are plenty more....but here is one regarding Christian beliefs.

Question: Do you know who the Holy Spirit is?

(Mormon example....there were others as well)

Another CARM lie or at best misstatement. I assume the former, since they hold themselves out to be experts.

You have a good point there but then, they are talking about religions they disagree with. And i didn't acknowledge that they were liars either; all I've said that they "May" have spoken lies.

Can you give me a link to where that lie is?

[Galatians220]

By the way, the Bible does not say the earth was created in 6 days, but in 6 periods. Each period is of indeterminate length of time, and was called a "day" only after it was completed. As it is, if you also believe that God created the earth from nothing (ex nihilo creation), then you are also misreading the Bible, which states that God formed it from chaos (a good description of both the Big Bang and the formation of planets from matter floating in space that coalesce).

Perhaps instead of insisting all other theories are wrong, you should first realize that yours is a theory, based upon YOUR reading of Genesis, and that there are likely other valid theories from Genesis that fit in with the scientific record better, and may likely be more correct than your own.

The best way to interpret scripture is to read it literally and at face value so there is less of a chance to interpret it my way. Now there are theories that can be true, but what if it contradicts the word of God? Who will you believe, God or Man?

When the first thing was created, why did God say "and there was evening and there was morning.... the ___ day"? How many hours is it from morning to evening? Now how long is a day in relation to that? It doesn't take a 100,000 years from Evening to Morning? No, so how is it that God created things periodically?

Now where did you see the word "Chaos"? I don't recall reading that word anywhere.

[Galatians220]

Oh, I think lots of things I know to be wrong. Despite this I can easily keep ideas and seasoned facts separate (despite themselves sometimes).

However, that's more a dodge than an answer. The bible says, rather plainly, that the earth does not move and sits on a foundation of pillars. Allegorical or literal?

Readers of the Bible can determine whether things ought to be interpreted literally or not. Now I don't know where you got that quote from but foundations doesnt have to be physically pillars as in that of stone.

What held everything on earth is Gravety; no one knows what gravety looks like, how it operates, and it's source of energy, we just have Newton's laws of Mass in that greater mass has more pull. That said, gravety CAN be look on as the Earth's foundation because like the physical foundation, it holds everything together.

25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. - Psalm 102:25

[Galatians220]

I don't remember saying that. I said it's queer that there was light without a sun, or have photosynthesizing plants before a sun for that matter.

Well God can be that light just has he was the pillar of fire for the Hebrews to follow.

No one has ever really said humans evolved from monkeys, that's a misnomer. Persons will point out that apes, but not monkeys, are genetically similar to humans.

For some reason I used that word....

.

There are actually dozens, probably more, persons in the scientific community who believe in god. However, they believe in the divine spirit as a supernatural force and not a scientific toy. Empirically, god may be lacking but that does not seem to dissuade them from their faith.

...

The god they believed in probably doesn't contradict the Theory of Evolution because the theory doesn't discredit faith in a god so long as it is not like the God of the Bible even though there doesn't seemed to give evidence for that. It is much like believing that there may be life outside our solar system. Carl Sagan leaned toward that.

What I believe is personal and not in question here.

I don't want to force you but its a simple question whether you are willing to believe that God looked like an Ape. If you lean towards the idea that Man evolved from Apes, then that will have to be a yes on your part UNLESS, you are willing to abandon the idea that we are made in His image.

I'd say, we don't look look like an Ape because like God, we are above all of God's creatures for we are not only made in his Image, and in His Likeness in which we can do more things than any creature on earth. Compared to apes who can only grip things, we can build things.

I never said that, either. I was simply hoping for a little meshing between the bible and the most basic, even common sense, truths.

Remember that God doesn't always see things the way we do. What we see as common sense is to Him, an abomination.

There was faith in a divine spirit before there was a bible and there will be faith in a divine spirit while people argue and muddle over what the bible does or does no say, and there will be faith in a divine spirit after the bible goes away.

Before the Bible, God is clearly evident in his works, his Creation that even the Godhead is known (Romans 1). And maybe the Bible will go away because when Christ comes back, everything will be answered but until then, God has given his word for a reason, so that we will use it for righteousness which includes:

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15

Edited September 1, 2009 by Galatians220

[prisonchaplain]

If one reads the Bible as a book inspired by God, containing his message for us, then it offers great direction, wisdom, purpose. On the other hand, read it with skepticism, and a desire to undermine, and you'll find all the illogic and inconsistencies you desire.

[EruditioSalvatus]

I'll settle for "the bible is written by men thus not perfect."

I mean, not even jesus was perfect according to the scriptures.

[Maya]

My grandfather was the first in my country to teach that you should study and read the Bible so that you do not take it out of its context. You should consider all jewish ways of thinking, living... You just cant take a sentance out of the Bible and put it frames of today and tolk it accordingly.

#

1 Sam. 2: 8

8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

#

Job 9: 6

6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

#

Job 26: 11

11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

#

Ps. 75: 3

3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

PSALM 75

The righteous praise and thank the God of Jacob—They shall be exalted—God is the judge, and the wicked shall be condemned.

TO THE CHIEF MUSICIAN, AL-TASCHITH, A PSALM OR SONG OF ASAPH.

1 Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare.

2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.

3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the apillars of it. Selah.

4 I said unto the afools, Deal not foolishly: and to the wicked, Lift not up the horn:

5 Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a astiff neck.

6 For apromotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.

7 But God is the ajudge: he putteth bdown one, and setteth up another.

8 For in the hand of the Lord there is a acup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and bdrink them.

9 But I will declare for ever; I will sing praises to the God of Jacob.

10 All the ahorns of the wicked also will I cut off; but the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.

There caught my eye:

2 Kgs. 23: 3

3 ¶ And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

1 Chr. 18: 8

8 Likewise from Tibhath, and from Chun, cities of Hadarezer, brought David very much brass, wherewith Solomon made the brasen sea, and the pillars, and the vessels of brass.

Kings often stod by pilars, their throne was situated by the pilars... why... because they were thus able to even demolish all people in front of them, but be safe themselves, if they so wished by just making the pillars fall. I think this is also pictorial of God, who made the pilars of heaven and He can also pull them so that all mankind will be destroyed. The pilars in Temple are a picture of Gods power, that holds the skies up just like a pillar holds a house up.

[RiversideGuy]

I'll settle for "the bible is written by men thus not perfect."

I mean, not even jesus was perfect according to the scriptures.

And which verse exactly says that?