LDS Position on Homosexuality & "Eternal Gender"

[Vort]

But none the less it is the same thing as repressing your feelings.

If controlling your actions is the same thing as repressing your feelings, then the basis of human society itself rests on repressing your feelings. In other words, "repressing your feelings" is also known as "being civilized". So it's a very, very good thing to repress one's feelings, and everyone who is fit to be included as a part of society is capable of doing so -- in fact, is expected to do so.

[desirexnoel]

If controlling your actions is the same thing as repressing your feelings, then the basis of human society itself rests on repressing your feelings. In other words, "repressing your feelings" is also known as "being civilized". So it's a very, very good thing to repress one's feelings, and everyone who is fit to be included as a part of society is capable of doing so -- in fact, is expected to do so.

Only when it comes to homosexuality. To assume feelings aren't involved is to assume that people can not be born gay.

[bytebear]

But none the less it is the same thing as repressing your feelings.

No, we are not Vulcans. I may be mad at my boss, but I don't throw a punch. Maybe I am "repressing my feelings" but in reality, I am controlling my actions. Having the feeling is not a sin. But you are saying it is impossible for some people to control those feelings, and therefor if someone belts their boss, they should be given a pass and can just say, "Well, some people just can't suppress their feelings." Sorry, but that's not how it works.

[desirexnoel]

For homosexuality they aren't allowed to have homosexual feelings either. Those are sinful feelings and thoughts.

[bytor2112]

I think it is only not an issue if you aren't homosexual. Some homosexuals can repress their feelings and others can't. I am just speaking on behalf of those who can't.

My personal opinion here......I think that any weakness or desire can be overcome by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Desires like say, adultery....many people struggle with monogamy. Lust is a powerful thing and often so very difficult to overcome, but it can and has been overcome by many. I suspect that those who have overcome these desires by faith In Jesus Christ and his merciful Atonement could fall in to temptation again if they did not continue to apply the healing balm given us by the Savior. It is easy to justify our actions in life because the desire is so powerful. Ultimately, we begin to heal when we recognize that the desire, no matter how natural it may feel is in opposition to the will of the Father and begin to exercise faith in Christ and pray always so that we do not fall into temptation.

Ultimately, success in our probationary estate requires us to deny the flesh and live by the Spirit. Not everyone will choose to do this....but it is possible.

Edited August 20, 2009 by bytor2112

[bytebear]

For homosexuality they aren't allowed to have homosexual feelings either. Those are sinful feelings and thoughts.

That's just ridiculous. And it's equal for straight people too. If a man lusts after a woman, then he is sinning equally.

[desirexnoel]

That's just ridiculous. And it's equal for straight people too. If a man lusts after a woman, then he is sinning equally.

I am not talking about lust. I am talking about love.

[bytebear]

I am not talking about lust. I am talking about love.

And I if I fall in love with someone who isn't available, perhaps I am already married, or they are? Do I just forgo the commandments against adultery and go for it?

[desirexnoel]

And I if I fall in love with someone who isn't available, perhaps I am already married, or they are? Do I just forgo the commandments against adultery and go for it?

I am not talking about married people. Two single adults falling in love.

Edited August 20, 2009 by desirexnoel
Typo

[ttribe]

For homosexuality they aren't allowed to have homosexual feelings either. Those are sinful feelings and thoughts.

Actually, I believe you are incorrect here. According to Elder Oaks -

The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear. It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted.

Here's the full discussion: Link

[desirexnoel]

Actually, I believe you are incorrect here. According to Elder Oaks -

Here's the full discussion: Link

Thank you very much.

[bytebear]

I am not talking about married people. Tow single adults falling in love.

But I am talking about the law of chastity, and adultery, which is contrary to current social standards. The simple fact is, if you want to be in the society of Zion, you cannot act on gay emotions. If you want to be one with the Saints, you have certain lifestyle restrictions, like the Word of Wisdom. If you want to have a glass of wine with dinner, then don't join the church. If you want to be in a gay relationship (or more commonly, slut around), then don't join the church. It's simply a choice of where you want to be. Similarly if you want a strict religious society, you can live in the middle East. It's still a choice. The church has every right to define the standards of morals that they will accept, and you have every right to choose not to join the church.

[desirexnoel]

But I am talking about the law of chastity, and adultery, which is contrary to current social standards. The simple fact is, if you want to be in the society of Zion, you cannot act on gay emotions. If you want to be one with the Saints, you have certain lifestyle restrictions, like the Word of Wisdom. If you want to have a glass of wine with dinner, then don't join the church. If you want to be in a gay relationship (or more commonly, slut around), then don't join the church. It's simply a choice of where you want to be. Similarly if you want a strict religious society, you can live in the middle East. It's still a choice. The church has every right to define the standards of morals that they will accept, and you have every right to choose not to join the church.

Thank you. I think that was my original point, just not in so many words.

[bytebear]

Thank you. I think that was my original point, just not in so many words.

No, you said you cannot have gay emotions. I said you cannot act on them. There is a difference.

My point is, we live in a world of societies. Each society decides the rules of behavior. The church teaches free agency, so you can choose whether you want to conform to societal norms or not. Fortunately, in the United States, we have freedom to create or switch to other societal subcultures. But, we still have no right to force a society to change their standards. And you cannot expect to enter a society, act against their established rules, and expect no ramifications.

[desirexnoel]

No, you said you cannot have gay emotions. I said you cannot act on them. There is a difference.

No. My original quote. Like my first one where you can't go to heaven if you are homosexual. The only difference is you believe they don't need to repress their homosexual feelings where I feel they do. Especially if they want the ordinance of marriage. I have heard way too many stories of gays thinking marriage was the cure to homosexuality.

[bytebear]

No. My original quote. Like my first one where you can't go to heaven if you are homosexual. The only difference is you believe they don't need to repress their homosexual feelings where I feel they do. Especially if they want the ordinance of marriage. I have heard way too many stories of gays thinking marriage was the cure to homosexuality.

Do you understand the LDS view of heaven?

As I understand it, the church used to tell gay members to "find the right woman" but now, they do not recommend a gay member try to "become straight."

[desirexnoel]

Do you understand the LDS view of heaven?

As I understand it, the church used to tell gay members to "find the right woman" but now, they do not recommend a gay member try to "become straight."

I know all about the degrees of heaven if that is what you are asking. I know that the Celestial kingdom will be here on earth. I know that God resides near Kolob. Is there something else you are referring to?

[bytebear]

I know all about the degrees of heaven if that is what you are asking. I know that the Celestial kingdom will be here on earth. I know that God resides near Kolob. Is there something else you are referring to?

Yes. When we are resurrected, we are resurrected in glory, but that glory is dependent on not just on our righteousness, but on our trials and how we overcome them. There is a scripture that says "where much is given, much is required" and as such, those born with same sex attraction are given a larger burden, but will receive greater reward for overcoming that challenge. Again, it goes to society, and whether you are willing to live within the standards of that society. God has laws which must be obeyed to live within a society of heaven, and we choose whether we will live to those standards or not. But, being gay in and of itself does not limit our potential for heavenly reward.

[desirexnoel]

Thank you for the response.

[cofchristcousin]

No, you said you cannot have gay emotions. I said you cannot act on them. There is a difference.

My point is, we live in a world of societies. Each society decides the rules of behavior. The church teaches free agency, so you can choose whether you want to conform to societal norms or not. Fortunately, in the United States, we have freedom to create or switch to other societal subcultures. But, we still have no right to force a society to change their standards. And you cannot expect to enter a society, act against their established rules, and expect no ramifications.

I think that we are in the midst of a changing of the guard, or maybe the changing of the tide in the broader society and even in the subcultures. These conversations are evidence of this. Even within the LDS there are subtle changes in the rhetoric. From silence, excommunication, then the era of trying to change the gay, then to statements accepting that being gay is not a choice, the emergence of Affirmation, statements that the church is not anti-gay and affirms some rights to them at the same time as working to remove equal rights in California. Things are confusing as the tide changes, for a time the waters move in both directions. These conversations show the polarity, questions, seemingly incongruent responses that comes in the midst of social movement. Even though the LDS are holding fast in with the word "marriage", they are still moving with the tide towards better treatment of gltb, along with the culture.

[desirexnoel]

I think that we are in the midst of a changing of the guard, or maybe the changing of the tide in the broader society and even in the subcultures. These conversations are evidence of this. Even within the LDS there are subtle changes in the rhetoric. From silence, excommunication, then the era of trying to change the gay, then to statements accepting that being gay is not a choice, the emergence of Affirmation, statements that the church is not anti-gay and affirms some rights to them at the same time as working to remove equal rights in California. Things are confusing as the tide changes, for a time the waters move in both directions. These conversations show the polarity, questions, seemingly incongruent responses that comes in the midst of social movement. Even though the LDS are holding fast in with the word "marriage", they are still moving with the tide towards better treatment of gltb, along with the culture.

I really appreciate your posts. I agree completely. LDS view has changed a lot in the years in respect to the LGBT community just as society had. I was shocked but relieved about the view on transgendered people.

[bytebear]

I think that we are in the midst of a changing of the guard, or maybe the changing of the tide in the broader society and even in the subcultures. These conversations are evidence of this. Even within the LDS there are subtle changes in the rhetoric. From silence, excommunication, then the era of trying to change the gay, then to statements accepting that being gay is not a choice, the emergence of Affirmation, statements that the church is not anti-gay and affirms some rights to them at the same time as working to remove equal rights in California. Things are confusing as the tide changes, for a time the waters move in both directions. These conversations show the polarity, questions, seemingly incongruent responses that comes in the midst of social movement. Even though the LDS are holding fast in with the word "marriage", they are still moving with the tide towards better treatment of gltb, along with the culture.

I think that is true, but I also think that the gospel of Jesus Christ is love, and it is reflected in the church. We do have to deal with gay members within the church, and we need to do it with love. We cannot bestow all the blessings of the gospel to people who choose not to enter into the (heterosexual) covenant of marriage. The concept of family and sealings are simply incompatible with the eternal definition of parentage. But that does not mean we cannot give as many blessings that the gospel can provide.

[bytor2112]

I think that we are in the midst of a changing of the guard, or maybe the changing of the tide in the broader society and even in the subcultures. These conversations are evidence of this. Even within the LDS there are subtle changes in the rhetoric. From silence, excommunication, then the era of trying to change the gay, then to statements accepting that being gay is not a choice, the emergence of Affirmation, statements that the church is not anti-gay and affirms some rights to them at the same time as working to remove equal rights in California. Things are confusing as the tide changes, for a time the waters move in both directions. These conversations show the polarity, questions, seemingly incongruent responses that comes in the midst of social movement. Even though the LDS are holding fast in with the word "marriage", they are still moving with the tide towards better treatment of gltb, along with the culture.

COF....I enjoyed reading your blog! The church perhaps is taking a different approach because they recognize the breadth of the issue and the number of people who live in confusion as a result. I don't think there is any ambiguity regarding the Eternal consequence of not keeping the law of chastity. I believe that ultimately the laws will be changed and g/l people will be allowed to legally wed.....but the LDS church will never acknowledge it to be anything other than a grievous sin.

[Hemidakota]

It is not whether the church will accept it, is it acceptable to the Savior. That is not going to happen. There is no allowance for any sin...not even an inch. Not now, not in the eternities.

Only change is how we approach this issue openly and to show a love for our brothers and sisters is now shown on a broader scale than previous years but the culture of this life style or sin will never be accepted now or ever. If our brothers and sisters are willing throw away their eternal reward even after being counsel by His servants, so be it. They have agency to choose.

[cofchristcousin]

It is not whether the church will accept it, is it acceptable to the Savior. That is not going to happen. There is no allowance for any sin...not even an inch. Not now, not in the eternities.

Only change is how we approach this issue openly and to show a love for our brothers and sisters is now shown on a broader scale than previous years but the culture of this life style or sin will never be accepted now or ever. If our brothers and sisters are willing throw away their eternal reward even after being counsel by His servants, so be it. They have agency to choose.

You may be right that gay marriages will never be a part of your denomination. Your salvation theology is unique and most Christianities do not have the same theological barriers with gay marriages. There are building movements even within Evangelical churches.

My denomination is on the cusp of being ready to fully accept in the developed countries but there are other jurisdictions where gays might be executed for associating with an affirming church. We struggle with how to keep threatened gays safe in those cultures and give space for others who disagree, and also allowing the freedom to openly marry and ordain in the areas where it is legal and time to make the change. It's a stressful and joyful and heartbreaking time in my church as we seek to honor the worth of these diverse people and circumstances.