Guest Believer_1829 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 That NINE TIMES you can't and didn't. NINE TIMESIf you had read post 69 you would know just what I believe. If it is on this topic and it's not in post 69, I don't believe it.Snow, what are you afraid of by simply answering my question?Just say... "Yes, I believe our Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours."or ..."No, I don't believe Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours."Then we can move forward in the discussion.
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 Snow, the men who you are quoting may be early church "fathers", but I subscribe to the teachings of the early church apostles (Peter, James, Paul, etc.)--who teach the teachings of Jesus Christ. Most of the men you quote are teaching something in direct opposition to what Christ taught. So no, I would not consider them true believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He didn't teach that we could become gods, He taught that He was the ONLY way TO God.
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Then we can move forward in the discussion. I wont rather not because it seems that the discussion has moved on to me...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Snow, the men who you are quoting may be early church "fathers", but I subscribe to the teachings of the early church apostles (Peter, James, Paul, etc.)--who teach the teachings of Jesus Christ. Most of the men you quote are teaching something in direct opposition to what Christ taught. So no, I would not consider them true believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He didn't teach that we could become gods, He taught that He was the ONLY way TO God.I would say I agree with us not becoming Gods, but Snow knows better what I believe, so I could be wrong. XD
Snow Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Nope. No. I agreed with Dr. T when I God attacked, and Agreed that Believers is speaking to the doctrine I was taught/I am pretty sure you don't know what I believe at all.I don't know much at all about what you believe I was just certain about what you didn't believe.Mostly however, I'm just being obnoxious today. Apologies for bugging you too much.
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I don't know much at all about what you believe I was just certain about what you didn't believe.I think you proved that wrong already.Mostly however, I'm just being obnoxious today. Apologies for bugging you too much.*sigh* Actions speak louder then words. I will accept your apology if it is real. n_n
Snow Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Snow, the men who you are quoting may be early church "fathers", but I subscribe to the teachings of the early church apostles (Peter, James, Paul, etc.)--who teach the teachings of Jesus Christ. Most of the men you quote are teaching something in direct opposition to what Christ taught. So no, I would not consider them true believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He didn't teach that we could become gods, He taught that He was the ONLY way TO God.I disagree - not that I agree with all the beliefs for the Early Church Fathers - I disagree with them on parts of their beliefs about deification but I do not agree that they taught the opposite of what Christ taught. I won't be able to debate it out as I am going on vacation for 5 days but please look at this post:http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/24877-lds-faith-monotheistic-7.html#post407837I'll see your response when I return.Thanks
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I disagree - not that I agree with all the beliefs for the Early Church Fathers - I disagree with them on parts of their beliefs about deification but I do not agree that they taught the opposite of what Christ taught. I won't be able to debate it out as I am going on vacation for 5 days but please look at this post:http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/24877-lds-faith-monotheistic-7.html#post407837I'll see your response when I return.ThanksThank you for the link. I am looking at it right now.
Snow Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Snow, what are you afraid of by simply answering my question?Just say... "Yes, I believe our Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours."or ..."No, I don't believe Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours."Then we can move forward in the discussion.I'll have the discussion but you still bear the burden of proof. Demanding I answer questions is not meeting your burden.My belief is that God may or may not have lived a mortality. I accept that Joseph Smith addressed it in the KF Discourse. It is unimportant to me and I have no bias yes or no.10th request: Back up your assertion... simply post the doctrinal statement or scriptures or lesson manual that backs you up.
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Snow, what are you afraid of by simply answering my question?Just say... "Yes, I believe our Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours."or ..."No, I don't believe Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours."Then we can move forward in the discussion.Why are you asking for doctrinal declarations from someone who is not a prophet, cannot define canon, cannot create scripture or speak for God? Snow is exactly correct. We can speculate all day long on your assertions, but until and unless it becomes canonized, it is meaningless. Now, let me ask you a question. Is the statement "Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to our" canonized or not? A simple yes or no, please.
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 desirexnoel, sorry you felt bullied...I'm glad you're sharing your thoughts. Everyone's allowed to. Everyone should do it respectfully. Snow, isn't it really a question, then that you have about whether God lived a mortal life? A belief is strong. It would be hard to believe strongly in "he may or may not have." That would be like saying, "I believe strongly that there may or may not be a God."
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 I thought that the words of your prophets were God's words thru the man. So if a Prophet taught that God was once a man, isn't that what the LDS church believes? "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, adn take away the veil so you can see...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God...he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus CHrist himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", Joseph Fielding Smith pp.345-346
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I thought that the words of your prophets were God's words thru the man. So if a Prophet taught that God was once a man, isn't that what the LDS church believes? "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, adn take away the veil so you can see...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God...he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus CHrist himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", Joseph Fielding Smith pp.345-346I really appreciate the quote. It is one of those quotes I copy and paste into notepad so I remember it for later.
HiJolly Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I really appreciate the quote. It is one of those quotes I copy and paste into notepad so I remember it for later. The quote is not doctrinal, is not binding on members of the Church, is not relevant to our faith and practice of religion. It *IS* really interesting, though, and may be true. For an idea of what constitutes LDS doctrine, please go here: Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom HiJolly p.s. I'm panentheist, myself...
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 The quote is not doctrinal, is not binding on members of the Church, is not relevant to our faith and practice of religion. It *IS* really interesting, though, and may be true. For an idea of what constitutes LDS doctrine, please go here: Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom HiJolly p.s. I'm panentheist, myself... Thank you. I'll keep it in mind, although I do agree with the quote that it is important to know God, and therefore it helps to know how he came to be.
HiJolly Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I thought that the words of your prophets were God's words thru the man. So if a Prophet taught that God was once a man, isn't that what the LDS church believes?Scripture says it CAN be "God's words", not that it necessarily IS. The words of the prophets must have been under the full influence of the Spirit. We have been told through revelation that if we want to consider a prophet's word to the the will and mind of the Lord, then we must have it approved by the leading quorums of the Church. Generally speaking. If we want to add to our canon of scripture, than that must be voted upon by the general membership. That was last done, if I recall correctly, in 1975. I was there, and voted in the affirmative for sections 137 and 138 of the Doctrine & Covenants. HiJolly
bytebear Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I thought that the words of your prophets were God's words thru the man. So if a Prophet taught that God was once a man, isn't that what the LDS church believes? "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, adn take away the veil so you can see...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God...he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus CHrist himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", Joseph Fielding Smith pp.345-346Only if it is canonized. Otherwise it is speculation. It may be true, but the church has not accepted it as defacto truth.
beefche Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I thought that the words of your prophets were God's words thru the man. So if a Prophet taught that God was once a man, isn't that what the LDS church believes? "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, adn take away the veil so you can see...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God...he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus CHrist himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", Joseph Fielding Smith pp.345-346You bring up a difficult subject for LDS--when is a prophet teaching doctrine and when he isn't. We are taught doctrine as taught in our canon (see Snow's post about our canon for a nice summary).We do believe in modern prophets. It is difficult to explain (even to other Mormons), but not everything a prophet says is "doctrine." I can tell you that it really doesn't matter to our salvation if Heavenly Father lived a mortal life. What is essential to our salvation is 1. faith in Jesus Christ 2. repentance 3. baptism for the remission of sins 4. receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Thus, when Snow says it doesn't matter to him, he's correct. It doesn't matter....we can speculate, we can interpret scriptures or prophet's words, or even make things up....but in the end it doesn't matter.I can say that LDS people tend to rely more heavily on current prophets than the old (referring to prophets within the LDS church). We believe that President Monson has more correct counsel than Brigham Young did for us. The reason for this is President Monson is the prophet for our time while Bro Brigham was the prophet for his time. To see what Pres Monson is teaching, you can go to lds.org and look at the recent conference issue of the Ensign. Those are today's words for today (or as Pres Benson called it "TNT" today's news today).
HiJolly Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 You never answered my question you crazy guy you...Do you believe our Heavenly Father live a mortality similar to ours?It's a basic yes or no question.You know, B_1829, you could have avoided all this harassment by just answering Snow's challenge to your statement. He asked before you went on to your question for him. Now you're trying to insist on him answering a later question, when you OWE him a response FIRST. Snow is very left-brain and sequential in his behavior here, and I have to admit, he is within his rights to refuse to respond further to you until you do the proper thing and respond to his challenge. Do we need to open our Robert's Rules of Order? HiJolly
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 I think Scripture says it IS God's word--otherwise, how would we know whether to trust it? In the D&C 1:37-39 it says, "Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away; but shall ALL befulfilled, WHETHER BY MY OWN VOICE, OR BY THE VOICE OF MY SERVANTS, IT IS THE SAME." [caps mine]
HiJolly Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 desirexnoel, sorry you felt bullied...I'm glad you're sharing your thoughts. Everyone's allowed to. Everyone should do it respectfully. Snow, isn't it really a question, then that you have about whether God lived a mortal life? A belief is strong. It would be hard to believe strongly in "he may or may not have." That would be like saying, "I believe strongly that there may or may not be a God."This is a good time for me to point out a fav. quote of mine, about dealing with ambiguity. "Living with ambiguity is a form of intellectual honesty, of humility. It is only when we admit that we don't know that we are receptive to what lessons may be taught. In some strange way, it also brings an inner peace since we are no longer fighting reality to maintain our inner fantasies on how things should be. While I am characterizing it as an intellectual process, it also has spiritual implications, since only an open mind is capable of hearing God." -- Andy Piereder (on Eyring-L) HiJolly
HiJolly Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I think Scripture says it IS God's word--otherwise, how would we know whether to trust it? In the D&C 1:37-39 it says, "Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away; but shall ALL befulfilled, WHETHER BY MY OWN VOICE, OR BY THE VOICE OF MY SERVANTS, IT IS THE SAME." [caps mine]Yes, that is exactly what my post addresses. I cited a personal experience in adding to the scriptures. HiJolly
lattelady Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Posted August 20, 2009 I'm unsure of what your posts mean. As far as Believer being able to "avoid all this harassment" by simply answering Snow's question, did you go all the way back to the original posts between the two of them? Snow was referring his question to the person who said something about God giving glory to His God. Snow took up objection to that. Believer asked if Snow believed God came down and took on mortality and it was actually Snow who refused to answer that question. Snow was posing his question about God giving glory to his God to the wrong person--Believer wasn't the one who made that comment.
HiJolly Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I'm unsure of what your posts mean. As far as Believer being able to "avoid all this harassment" by simply answering Snow's question, did you go all the way back to the original posts between the two of them? Snow was referring his question to the person who said something about God giving glory to His God. Snow took up objection to that. Believer asked if Snow believed God came down and took on mortality and it was actually Snow who refused to answer that question. Snow was posing his question about God giving glory to his God to the wrong person--Believer wasn't the one who made that comment.Yeah, you're right. Sometimes Snow wears me out. HiJolly
desirexnoel Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Yeah, you're right. Sometimes Snow wears me out. HiJolly*exhales loudly* Yeah. Me too... and I hadn't been here that long... u_u
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