Mason Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 So, we have no obligation to believe the prophets? Does that mean I can discount everything in the Bible, BoM, D&C, POGP, Ensign.....You have an obligation to believe it because you made that choice. I do not believe the BoM is historically true (though some truths are in there) nor the rest of LDS scripture. I believe the Old Testament is nothing but borrowed pagan texts redacted into Jewish lore to make them appear more important than they are. The New Testament is perhaps the only reliable Christian "scripture" in existence. I also dig some NT deutrocanon (apocrypha) such as Barnabas, along with a few heterodox texts like the Gospel of Thomas. However, my faith does not hinge on the veracity of these texts. I will take whatever truth is in them and add it to my own knowledge. I believe Brigham Young stated that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I understand people who do not believe as the LDS do, but I'm assuming you are a Christian (forgive me if I'm wrong on that). As a Christian, do you not believe in the prophets of the Bible? Do you not believe that you are accountable for the teachings of the prophets in the Bible? If so, then I don't understand your earlier statement.I am a Catholic Christian. I believe most of the so-called prophets of the Old Testament were raving lunatics who spent too much time in the desert heat. That said, I don't believe these prophets had much to do with the actual texts of the Old Testament. I accept divine guidance. While I don't believe it comes in the form of a burning bosom, I do accept that God can and does guide His children home. Not that following the Old Testament is wrong per se (my polite qualifier is to italicize) , but I don't believe it will lead you to a closer life in Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I am a Catholic Christian. I believe most of the so-called prophets of the Old Testament were raving lunatics who spent too much time in the desert heat. That said, I don't believe these prophets had much to do with the actual texts of the Old Testament. I accept divine guidance. While I don't believe it comes in the form of a burning bosom, I do accept that God can and does guide His children home. Not that following the Old Testament is wrong per se (my polite qualifier is to italicize) , but I don't believe it will lead you to a closer life in Christ.Ok, I can understand where you are coming from. But I'm still a little confused. If you don't believe that others can be prophets and that you are not accountable for those that call themselves prophets (and I am specifically talking about the Bible prophets here), then how do you know what Christ has taught? I know that many dispute that the Bible was written by the men who say wrote them, but I think it's clear that there were prophets in the Bible. And I think that their words, teachings, and actions were recorded. How do you come to Christ if you don't follow their teachings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Few books of the Bible were written by single authors, and none can be shown to be authored by the claimed authors. Multiple authors of the Mosaic books, at least two different authors of Isaiah, etc.True. None can be shown to be authored by the claimed authors.Let's go ask Moses if he wrote them and then it won't be a question of faith that the bible is what it claims to be, but rather fact.Wait... You don't happen to know his number, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 wait... You don't happen to know his number, do you?1514 25152118 11145519 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 How do you come to Christ if you don't follow their teachings?Christ comes to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 True. None can be shown to be authored by the claimed authors.Let's go ask Moses if he wrote them and then it won't be a question of faith that the bible is what it claims to be, but rather fact.Wait... You don't happen to know his number, do you?Is this your attempt at being sarcastic? Or just a casual way to divert attention from the fact that you have no way of proving anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Christ comes to us.Please explain this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Is this your attempt at being sarcastic? Or just a casual way to divert attention from the fact that you have no way of proving anything? Can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) Can you?If I might answer this, Maxel, the proof does exists, its been there since Adam was a lad, sort of hidden in plain view.The problem is nobody can show you where it is because it requires something that can never happen in someone demanding evidence and that is humility.You see there are those who think they are better than God because they think they no longer need Him.Basically if a sceptic wants evidence he first must stop being a sceptic, if you understand what I mean, which is impossible and why they cannot see what’s in plain view.Hope this helps Edited September 8, 2009 by Kenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Please explain this.I cannot do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Can you?Of course not. Nobody can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 If I might answer this, Maxel, the proof does exists, its been there since Adam was a lad, sort of hidden in plain view.The problem is nobody can show you where it is because it requires something that can never happen in someone demanding evidence and that is humility.You see there are those who think they are better than God because they think they no longer need Him.Basically if a sceptic wants evidence he first must stop being a sceptic, if you understand what I mean, which is impossible and why they cannot see what’s in plain view.Hope this helpsWow, talk about a loaded comment. Why be nice, why not just make the outlandish claim that those who question are anti-Christ? Being humble, albeit noble in and of itself, has nothing to do whatever with scientific proof of authorship of a given text. There may be those who feel better checking their brains in at the door, but I am not such a person. The glory of God is intelligence, not humble resignation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Of course not. Nobody can.I was speaking of 'can you prove that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses'. Did you catch that, and are saying you cannot prove Moses didn't write the books traditionally credited to him?(I'm not being sarcastic; I fear I wasn't sufficiently clear in my comment) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 I was speaking of 'can you prove that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses'. Did you catch that, and are saying you cannot prove Moses didn't write the books traditionally credited to him?We can prove that there were at minimum four authors of the Pentateuch (JEPD). Just that information alone shows us that if Moses did have a hand in writing it, his was by no means the only one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 We can prove that there were at minimum four authors of the Pentateuch (JEPD). Just that information alone shows us that if Moses did have a hand in writing it, his was by no means the only one.Is this proof, or theory? You will forgive me if I am hesitant to accept theoretical evidence- no matter how good the literary criticism involved- when, according to my faith and personal knowledge from God, I have reason to suppose otherwise. The sciences are always advancing; even literary criticism is a growing and evolving field. The 'truths' we learn from science today are rendered inadequate by more knowledge gained tomorrow.Regardless of my personal reasons for accepting/rejecting the Wellhausen hypothesis, theory is not proof. I always find it interesting when one criticizes Mormons for not being able to prove their claims when said criticizer cannot prove their own claims are true.Please note that I am not familiar with the details of the Wellhausen theory, so I will not be debating it. I am merely making an observation on your comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Is this proof, or theory? You will forgive me if I am hesitant to accept theoretical evidence- no matter how good the literary criticism involved- when, according to my faith and personal knowledge from God, I have reason to suppose otherwise. The sciences are always advancing; even literary criticism is a growing and evolving field. The 'truths' we learn from science today are rendered inadequate by more knowledge gained tomorrow.Regardless of my personal reasons for accepting/rejecting the Wellhausen hypothesis, theory is not proof. I always find it interesting when one criticizes Mormons for not being able to prove their claims when said criticizer cannot prove their own claims are true.Please note that I am not familiar with the details of the Wellhausen theory, so I will not be debating it. I am merely making an observation on your comment.Take a good look at the Ugaritic texts and I think you'll change your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Wow, talk about a loaded comment. Why be nice, why not just make the outlandish claim that those who question are anti-Christ? Being humble, albeit noble in and of itself, has nothing to do whatever with scientific proof of authorship of a given text. There may be those who feel better checking their brains in at the door, but I am not such a person. The glory of God is intelligence, not humble resignation.It is not the questioning, is good to ask questions. But if you want evidence that God exist, if you want to know that Moses wrote the four books in the bible you first must accept who God is, what He represents and what His plan is for us.If you don't then you will waste your time tooing and frowing from one subject to another leading you nowhere.One day everybody will know without doubt that God exist and Jesus is the Christ. For some it will be a glorious event for others a time of great fear and trepidation. What will it matter then?Those that except God without seeing Him see the evidence of Him all around, feel His presence, talk to Him continually and receive His guidance.He talks in a still small voice, He talks through the Scriptures and He talks through His prophets what more evidence of His reality do we need.This is the real key to getting answers to your questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 1514 25152118 11145519Yep! That was it. Thanks, Kenny.Turns out he did write those books as inspired by God. Mystery solved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Yep! That was it. Thanks, Kenny.Turns out he did write those books as inspired by God. Mystery solved!Your welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 It is not the questioning, is good to ask questions.I'm glad we agree on this. But if you want evidence that God exist, if you want to know that Moses wrote the four books in the bible you first must accept who God is, what He represents and what His plan is for us.I was not questioning the existence of God. I believe the evidence is in creation itself and needs no further explanation. The question on the Five books of Moses is a different matter altogether and cannot be solved by a simple matter of faith or humility. One day everybody will know without doubt that God exist and Jesus is the Christ. For some it will be a glorious event for others a time of great fear and trepidation. What will it matter then?While I strongly disagree with the theory of "fear and trepidation," this is beside the point. Those that except God without seeing Him see the evidence of Him all around, feel His presence, talk to Him continually and receive His guidance.Now that's what I'm talking about! This is the real key to getting answers to your questionsI hope you don't think I was asking questions here. I have no problems with the unknown and unknowable. Nor do I need answers to every question under the Sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 I cannot do that.Why can you not explain your statement that Christ comes to us? I'm trying to understand you and your thoughts. As much as I like to think I can, I am unable to read people's minds. I don't understand how you are able to follow Christ and His commandments if you don't trust the Bible to be written by prophets or at the very least men of God. You state that you believe Christ comes to us. I do not understand that statement.So, since you can't explain that, explain why you can't explain it. Whew! I'm not sure I even understood that sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 What I like are the churches that offer you free espresso or valet parking on your first visit. The church with the best espresso wins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 I skimmed through this post and just wanted to add: This is only one branch of the Lutheran church. It is the ELCA Lutherans, not the Missouri Synod or the WELS Lutherans. There are other Lutheran synods who do NOT agree with this and it is heart breaking to see the word "Lutheran" all over the news like that...some news groups clarify the specifc Lutherans and some do not. I attend a WELS Lutheran church and we have nothing to do with any of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Why can you not explain your statement that Christ comes to us?When it happens to you, you will know it. I'm afraid I cannot put it into words as of yet. I don't understand how you are able to follow Christ and His commandments if you don't trust the Bible to be written by prophets or at the very least men of God. You state that you believe Christ comes to us. I do not understand that statement.I can go along with the "men of God" statement in most regards. Does that help? So, since you can't explain that, explain why you can't explain it. Whew! I'm not sure I even understood that sentence. That's a brain teaser. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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