To All former Evangelicals/Protestants

[Faded]

Your testimony is a nice example of someone who has that void that nothing can fill but after, as done a lot of research and found more evidence of the truth you now hold.

But on the experience you had prior to the invitation to meet with the Bishop, were you "saved" as in you've accepted Christ by Faith Alone or you were searching for the truth and you've come by the idea but it meant very little to you? Have heard of the 4 Spiritual Laws?

You said that you were in the non-denominational church so what did you do there while you were in that church? Did you join any bible study, were you under someone's wings (Mentored by an experienced seasoned believer, a teacher, or an elder)? Or is it simply that you've just grown up in church?

This is one of those hypocritical elements of attack that are all too common with Evangelicals. They will affirm that they had a life-changing experience through accepting Christ as their savior and being "saved" as they choose to refer to it. I've no doubt that such experiences are very real, though often misunderstood. But how can people like yourself affirm that they have been changed by God and have been changed into a new creature -- all of which cannot be proven -- and then call someone else's Spriritual experience "delusional." You can't prove to anyone that your own experience with God and the Holy Spirit is real, so how can you ridicule the experiences of others? How does it make you feel when somebody calls your spiritual awakening "a fanciful delusion"? Can you prove them wrong?

[prisonchaplain]

I guess Ram and my chuch are opposites. He used to be something of a non-denominational evangelical. My church used to be shunned by the evangelicals. They finally let us in, and now we're the largest group within them. Gotta love irony.

[Faded]

I guess Ram and my chuch are opposites. He used to be something of a non-denominational evangelical. My church used to be shunned by the evangelicals. They finally let us in, and now we're the largest group within them. Gotta love irony.

Hey PC, which group were you from again?

[Galatians220]

This is one of those hypocritical elements of attack that are all too common with Evangelicals. They will affirm that they had a life-changing experience through accepting Christ as their savior and being "saved" as they choose to refer to it. I've no doubt that such experiences are very real, though often misunderstood. But how can people like yourself affirm that they have been changed by God and have been changed into a new creature -- all of which cannot be proven -- and then call someone else's Spriritual experience "delusional." You can't prove to anyone that your own experience with God and the Holy Spirit is real, so how can you ridicule the experiences of others? How does it make you feel when somebody calls your spiritual awakening "a fanciful delusion"? Can you prove them wrong?

How did you know that I was going to discredit his testimony by calling him delusional? Do I look like I'm ridiculing him?

All I'm asking Rameumptom is his experience and learning as one who use to be in a Non-Denominational church now what's wrong with that?

Edited October 16, 2009 by Galatians220

[rameumptom]

What does it matter what I knew before in any church, Christian or otherwise? I've been LDS for almost 34 years now. I've spent most of those years studying deeply into Christian and Jewish theology, reading and rereading the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient documents. I've studied many scholars (LDS and non-LDS) views on what early Jews and Christians believed. I've compared their views with what the early Jews and Christians actually said on the various topics.

Know what? Ancient Jews and Christians believed in an anthropomorphic God and his divine son, the Messiah, also known as the Great Angel, the Name, etc. They believed that mankind was made of the same substance as God, and could become as God. Only later writers, influenced by the Hellenistic forces of the day, determined that God was one substance that differed from mankind. Still, for a time, many early authors believed that mankind could become gods. St Augustine taught that "God became man, so that man can become god." Nice couplet.

However, even with all the studies, I know that such does not convert. None of it proves the miracles or resurrection or atonement of Christ. None of it proves the Bible or Book of Mormon to be the word of God. This only comes from a spiritual event. I've had many spiritual events in my life that have convinced me totally that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. I know that God works through prophets, both anciently and today. I know the Bible and Book of Mormon are true testaments of Jesus Christ. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that Thomas Monson is one today. This I know independent of anyone else. For as with the apostle Paul, I gained this witness not of man, nor of men, but by revelation of God.

[candyprpl]

I feel scared to even comment on this thread -- I'm not real learned and maybe you will be able to discredit me for that -- no problem.

I was raised Baptist, baptized when I was 14 and very happy to be a part of that religious sect. Then I decided that there wasn't a true church or religion and started doubting God and Jesus altogether -- then claimed to be agnostic. That lasted many years until my life became so difficult that I went back to looking for answers about 'life'. When I tried to end my life one final time the Lord granted me an amazing insight/experience. My sisters who had been LDS for many years came to my hospital room and asked me if I would like a Priesthood blessing. I didn't hesitate in answering yes. At that same time, I heard a heavenly voice whisper in my other ear, "Are you ready to do it my way?" After my recovery I started taking the lessons from the missionaries. It didn't matter what scriptures they chose for me to read or any of the discussions that converted me, it was the answers I got directly from my Heavenly Father. Even when I accepted the invitation to be baptized -- I didn't understand why I needed to be baptized again -- my baptism at age 14 was done in the same manner. It was exercising faith that I entered the waters again -- then received conclusive evidence that one must be baptized by one having authority. When I came up out of the water and looked at the missionary who baptized me, I felt like I was looking at John the Baptist. May sound corny, but it's true. And having the Gift of the Holy Ghost is an experience like I have never had before. Reading the Book of Mormon has brought me closer to my Heavenly Father -- I know him and I know he knows me personally.

You asked -- I answered in a very simple form.

[Vort]

Before I post my question my coming here is for my learning about the LDS Church. I began my search when I met an LDS in class and from then on I attended on Sundays going on all three classes (Communion, Doctrines, and Mens) for six months. I wanted to learn from the LDS thenselves instead of learning only from the Apologist themselves.

So in six solid months of attending LDS services, you never learned that "Communion" is called "sacrament meeting", that "Doctrines" is called "Gospel principles class", and that "Mens" is called "Priesthood meeting"?

[Galatians220]

So in six solid months of attending LDS services, you never learned that "Communion" is called "sacrament meeting", that "Doctrines" is called "Gospel principles class", and that "Mens" is called "Priesthood meeting"?

It's been a while since I've studied there so I don't remember the names perfectly but only what they are essentially. Why are you calling into question, my account?

[Vort]

It's been a while since I've studied there so I don't remember the names perfectly but only what they are essentially. Why are you calling into question, my account?

Because I think it's a possibility that you are not on the level. You may be perfectly sincere. On the other hand, you may be just another of a long line of imposters who claim an "interest" in Mormonism or to have "studied with the missionaries" or to have been baptized and gone through the temple, only to learn "the truth" about Mormonism's horrific doctrines, which until that point they had never before heard. Such transparent lies are hardly damaging, except to the souls of those who tell them, but they do get irritating after the nth repetition.

[Galatians220]

What does it matter what I knew before in any church, Christian or otherwise? I've been LDS for almost 34 years now. I've spent most of those years studying deeply into Christian and Jewish theology, reading and rereading the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient documents. I've studied many scholars (LDS and non-LDS) views on what early Jews and Christians believed. I've compared their views with what the early Jews and Christians actually said on the various topics.

...

...

...

Rameumptom, if you don't want to answer what there before, then just say so.

Again, the whole reason why I am here is because I wanted to learn from former Evangelicals/Protestants why they left. It was never my intent to judge them guilty for being weak or unlearned for leaving, but only to learn from them. For those who have left having never read the bible are the ones I am not at all looking for but only those who have been knowledgeable in the bible, even apologetics. Wouldn't you want to

If you don't want to answer my questions, then I will simply wait for another to learn from. Now do you want to continue with this?

[Galatians220]

Because I think it's a possibility that you are not on the level. You may be perfectly sincere. On the other hand, you may be just another of a long line of imposters who claim an "interest" in Mormonism or to have "studied with the missionaries" or to have been baptized and gone through the temple, only to learn "the truth" about Mormonism's horrific doctrines, which until that point they had never before heard. Such transparent lies are hardly damaging, except to the souls of those who tell them, but they do get irritating after the nth repetition.

I've never heard of anyone who would intentionally feign interest and conversion just to discredit the group. I didn't know that was a problem in your church and I hope that none of those impostors are from my own.

Real Bible-believing Christians are to be honest and sincere in all things to God and Man. To pretend in order to convert, is not the way of scripture.

I assure you that I am not here to pretend, nor to convert. If I am then, I would have already taken part in the debate over the doctrines I'm passionate about. Now I have argued over scripture but only in it's defense, not in the promotion of it.

Is there anything else on your mind?

[Vort]

I've never heard of anyone who would intentionally feign interest and conversion just to discredit the group.

Stick around and you will see plenty.

I didn't know that was a problem in your church

Any place the true kingdom of God exists, the devil and those who serve him (knowingly or unwittingly) will stir up contention.

Real Bible-believing Christians are to be honest and sincere in all things to God and Man. To pretend in order to convert, is not the way of scripture.

True enough. I have heard some claim that there is nothing wrong with "lying about the devil", so any distortions they tell about the Church or their own history with it are holy lies. Apparently, these people are absolutely correct when they claim the Latter-day Saints worship "a different Jesus®" from theirs; the LDS Jesus does not condone lies, as theirs apparently does.

Is there anything else on your mind?

In no particular order:

• Why do those who claim to believe in the literal truth of the Bible so often claim not to believe that God has a physical body, since the Bible so clearly teaches that he does?
• When you get swine flu, do you crave bacon? Because if so, I might have swine flu.
• Why do we use base 10 for our numbering system? Based on the length of a week, wouldn't base 7 be better? Base 8 would certainly make a lot of calculations easier.
• If you like heavy metal, does that mean you're iron deficient?
• Is there a Java web site equivalent to LearnVisualStudio.net?
• Why do people think that Alma 13:9-10 refers to the modern Priesthood office of "high priest", when that office in its modern incarnation did not exist among the Nephites and, of course, was not even restored in our dispensation until two full years after the Book of Mormon had been translated?
• If I complain about "global warming", and you note the globe is actually cooling, so I start complaining about "global climate change", and you note that the climate is not changing any more than it has for the last ten thousand years, and I change my wording again without substantively changing my arguments, would you call my argument process an "AlGoreRithm"?
• Is apparent similarity in belief sufficient reason to give credence to apocryphal writings full scriptural status? If not, what is?
• If I pack the powder and then use apocryphal writings for the wadding, does that make them cannonical?
• If Democrats from the 1960s and 1970s expressly disclaimed any intention of establishing or normalizing homosexuality, why ought I to believe them when they now claim no desire to establish or normalize any other kind of sexual deviancy, such as bestiality or child sex?
• If the adjacent communities of Provo and Orem, Utah, combined to form a single city, would you call the city "Poorem" to reflect the citizenry's socioeconomic status or "Ovo" to reflect the high fertility rate?
• If you believe that God is "all-powerful", and you believe that "all-powerful" means "he can do anything at all that anyone can say", then why can't God cause himself to cease ever to have existed?
• If I repent, then God says he remembers my sins no more. But I can still remember them. So does that mean I am more powerful than God?

I'm sure there are other things, but that's what's on my mind at the moment. Edited October 16, 2009 by Vort

[Galatians220]

I feel scared to even comment on this thread -- I'm not real learned and maybe you will be able to discredit me for that -- no problem.

I was raised Baptist, baptized when I was 14 and very happy to be a part of that religious sect. Then I decided that there wasn't a true church or religion and started doubting God and Jesus altogether -- then claimed to be agnostic. That lasted many years until my life became so difficult that I went back to looking for answers about 'life'. When I tried to end my life one final time the Lord granted me an amazing insight/experience. My sisters who had been LDS for many years came to my hospital room and asked me if I would like a Priesthood blessing. I didn't hesitate in answering yes. At that same time, I heard a heavenly voice whisper in my other ear, "Are you ready to do it my way?" After my recovery I started taking the lessons from the missionaries. It didn't matter what scriptures they chose for me to read or any of the discussions that converted me, it was the answers I got directly from my Heavenly Father. Even when I accepted the invitation to be baptized -- I didn't understand why I needed to be baptized again -- my baptism at age 14 was done in the same manner. It was exercising faith that I entered the waters again -- then received conclusive evidence that one must be baptized by one having authority. When I came up out of the water and looked at the missionary who baptized me, I felt like I was looking at John the Baptist. May sound corny, but it's true. And having the Gift of the Holy Ghost is an experience like I have never had before. Reading the Book of Mormon has brought me closer to my Heavenly Father -- I know him and I know he knows me personally.

You asked -- I answered in a very simple form.

Candyprpl, this isn't a place for debates so don't be scared.

Your testimony is amazing because you really could have died by the many ways not limited to slitting your wrist. Beforehand, your life as an agnostic before conversion is also amazing because this must be an instance of a "Wilderness Experience" that God had to put you through in order to soften and open you up. the openness of your heart and mind allowed you to have faith despite why you have to be baptized again and as a result you've received the gift of the Holy Spirit

I do appreciate you coming here, and sharing your testimony, but it wasn't really what I was looking for. While you have been a Baptist before, you did not convert from the Baptist but from an agnostic. And since you have been an Agnostic most of your the time, how much have you retained from your past learning as a Baptist?

I am looking for are Mormons who use to be Evangelicals who knows their bible and the three basic fundamentals that it taught (if it did). Not ones who left disenchanted, disillusioned, or disbelieved, but left by the truth LDS taught according to scripture.

Unless you posed questions based on your learning as a former Baptist to those helping you to become and LDS member, your testimony about you joining the Baptist church at the age of 14 is of no use to me.

[candyprpl]

Galatians220 Welllllll.....I did leave out a lot (on purpose). I come from a long line of Baptist ministers -- and still have many cousins who are ministers. My parents were the best christians I have ever known (but I'm meeting more now). I was married to a baptist minister and I attended seminary classes with him. So I have studied the Bible a lot. I did go through a time of wandering (as you put it)before leaving it all behind. It was while I professed to be agnostic that I knew the something that was missing in my life was something spiritual. I even tried many different disciplines of spirituality. There is in my town a baptist church that I started attending infrequently and liked the minister. My conversion to LDS came step by step as I studied more and was finally getting the answers to my questions that no other religion or student of the Bible had been able to give me. I will not get into debates on scriptures -- tried that -- didn't like it -- I will leave that up to the others who like it.

Sorry I couldn't help. Good luck.

[Galatians220]

Stick around and you will see plenty.

Well, let me know if I can help with any.

Any place the true kingdom of God exists, the devil and those who serve him (knowingly or unwittingly) will stir up contention.

I agree, 1 John 4 talks about testing the Spirits so we must be ready.

True enough. I have heard some claim that there is nothing wrong with "lying about the devil", so any distortions they tell about the Church or their own history with it are holy lies. Apparently, these people are absolutely correct when they claim the Latter-day Saints worship "a different Jesus®" from theirs; the LDS Jesus does not condone lies, as theirs apparently does.

Neither does my Lord condone lies for the sake conversion or victory.

In no particular order:

Then I will answer them but i will not engage in a debate here. there is another room for that. I trust that that is not your intention.

• Why do those who claim to believe in the literal truth of the Bible so often claim not to believe that God has a physical body, since the Bible so clearly teaches that he does?

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 4:24

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Luke 24:39

.

When you get swine flu, do you crave bacon? Because if so, I might have swine flu.

I didn't know you can have a craving for bacon when you get swine flu

LOL don't worry, just watch your intake measure.

Why do we use base 10 for our numbering system? Based on the length of a week, wouldn't base 7 be better? Base 8 would certainly make a lot of calculations easier.

We use the Greco-Roman system, not because we believe it's the right system but it's just that our culture is influenced by the Romans and the Greeks which is the same with our calender.

If you like heavy metal, does that mean you're iron deficient?

LOL, no but if you like head-banging you may need something of that sort protect the stuff that enables you to think and make the right decisions in the first place :)

Is there a Java web site equivalent to LearnVisualStudio.net?

I'm not a computer savvy type so I can't help you there

Why do people think that Alma 13:9-10 refers to the modern Priesthood office of "high priest", when that office in its modern incarnation did not exist among the Nephites and, of course, was not even restored in our dispensation until two full years after the Book of Mormon had been translated?

Good question, I don't know but ask anyone here, and they'll tell you. What I do know is that Jesus alone is the High Priest in the order of Melchizedek in Hebrews 7 because he is eternal.

If I complain about "global warming", and you note the globe is actually cooling, so I start complaining about "global climate change", and you note that the climate is not changing any more than it has for the last ten thousand years, and I change my wording again without substantively changing my arguments, would you call my argument process an "AlGoreRithm"?

If that's the way he is, then your argument is what you said it is.

Is apparent similarity in belief sufficient reason to give credence to apocryphal writings full scriptural status? If not, what is?

Morally, and in general they do but morals alone shouldn't be evidenced of inspiration or else why not include the Koran? Most of the religions share our basic morals because man gained a sense of right and wrong after eating the knowledge of Good and Evil.

If I pack the powder and then use apocryphal writings for the wadding, does that make them cannonical?

No but if they're false, they're useful for toilet paper.

If Democrats from the 1960s and 1970s expressly disclaimed any intention of establishing or normalizing homosexuality, why ought I to believe them when they now claim no desire to establish or normalize any other kind of sexual deviancy, such as bestiality or child sex?

Don't believe them, if they've made that claim back then, why should you believe them now. However, they may not be the same individual democrats who've made those claim.

If the adjacent communities of Provo and Orem, Utah, combined to form a single city, would you call the city "Poorem" to reflect the citizenry's socioeconomic status or "Ovo" to reflect the high fertility rate?

The joining of the two cites alone doesn't mean the citizenry have a high fertility rate, it simply means they're grouping together so I pick Poorem.

If you believe that God is "all-powerful", and you believe that "all-powerful" means "he can do anything at all that anyone can say", then why can't God cause himself to cease ever to have existed?

He could but what good does that do with anyone? Same with "Can God create a Rock too heavy for Him to carry?"

If I repent, then God says he remembers my sins no more. But I can still remember them. So does that mean I am more powerful than God?

No it means that he'll no longer hold you accountable for those sins in the past. However, because we can't doesn't mean we're more powerful than God. He is able to forget but we're unable to.

I'm sure there are other things, but that's what's on my mind at the moment.

Some of your questions are odd and it doesn't seemed to have anything to do with the topic I set forth but I know there is a reason am I right?

Have a good one

[Galatians220]

Galatians220 Welllllll.....I did leave out a lot (on purpose). I come from a long line of Baptist ministers -- and still have many cousins who are ministers. My parents were the best christians I have ever known (but I'm meeting more now). I was married to a baptist minister and I attended seminary classes with him. So I have studied the Bible a lot. I did go through a time of wandering (as you put it)before leaving it all behind. It was while I professed to be agnostic that I knew the something that was missing in my life was something spiritual. I even tried many different disciplines of spirituality. There is in my town a baptist church that I started attending infrequently and liked the minister. My conversion to LDS came step by step as I studied more and was finally getting the answers to my questions that no other religion or student of the Bible had been able to give me. I will not get into debates on scriptures -- tried that -- didn't like it -- I will leave that up to the others who like it.

Sorry I couldn't help. Good luck.

We never really forget scripture when we study them and read the bible front and back. Since you've been in seminary, that's an extra plus for me because if I'm right, your learning might have included Apologetics.

So why did you leave out those detail? If many of your questions are based on your bible study as a baptist, and you indeed examined and tested those truths though scripture like the Bereans, then you're just the kind of person I'm looking for.

As I said before, there will be no debates and I would love to ask you questions that I have. Can you help me with those questions?

God bless :)

[candyprpl]

My reason for leaving out so much of my past history is quite simply because I did not want to turn this discussion into that of only intellectual. In your OP you want to know what argument most convinced me to change my mind. There wasn't any argument. My conversion came strictly as a spiritual converstion. I'm not saying that I didn't use my intellect/reasoning to continue my conversion, but, that it started out very spiritually. How I came to have my testimony is not as important as having it. I've only been a member going on 5 years now and my testimony grows stronger as I study all the scriptures and pray daily to understand what I am reading.

As I said before, I was raised Baptist. I believed what I was told. In the seminary classes I did start questioning and was unsatisfied with the answers I received. But we tend to stay where we are comfortable and so I stayed. I told you that my sisters had joined the LDS church -- they were in their teens when they joined -- they are ten and twelve years older than I am. I watched the kind of people they turned into and I admired their commitment to their church and families. In those days my attitude was, 'I'm glad they have found a church they like.'

I do have answers for why I now believe so strongly what the LDS church teaches -- however, I really do feel it is fruitless to start giving you a bunch of scriptures that I feel back up my beliefs

Prisonchaplin, who I greatly admire and have learned a great deal from, considers our beliefs heretical. I'm not sure that I will be able to say anything that will change your mind, and I know for sure that you will not be able to change my mind. I have received my answer from Heavenly Father that this is the true church and that Jesus Christ is the head of this church, that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, that the priesthood has been restored, and that the Prophet Joseph Smith was the prophet of God who brought about this restoration. I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is led today by a prophet of God and apostles.

I have seen too many times on these threads debates starting over interpretations of scriptures -- like I stated -- how I came to have a strong testimony is not as important as the fact that I have one.

I'm sorry, :(I know this is not what you want. Maybe I shouldn't have posted in the first place. It's hard not to want to share my testimony and so that is why I posted in the beginning.:)

[rameumptom]

I have to agree with candyprpl. I had a spiritual conversion first, not an intellectual one.

To describe the conversion any more than I have would be impossible. It would be like trying to describe the taste of salt to a person who had never experienced it.

As it is, I can talk circles around most people when it comes exegesis and eisegesis. However, while these things have often affirmed my testimony, my testimony came as did Paul's: not of man, nor of men, but by revelation of the Holy Spirit.

[Faded]

How did you know that I was going to discredit his testimony by calling him delusional? Do I look like I'm ridiculing him?

All I'm asking Rameumptom is his experience and learning as one who use to be in a Non-Denominational church now what's wrong with that?

Perhaps I misunderstood what you said. What I saw was was your response to rameumptom:

I felt that there was a spiritual hole in my chest needing to be filled, and none of them accomplished it.

Being saved meant little to me, as I still felt empty. I believed that Jesus could save me, and I could go through life without attending church. But it did not fill up that spiritual need I knew needed filling....

And you said:

Your testimony is a nice example of someone who has that void that nothing can fill but after, has done a lot of research and found more evidence of the truth you now hold.

But on the experience you had prior to the invitation to meet with the Bishop, were you "saved" as in you've accepted Christ by Faith Alone or you were searching for the truth and you've come by the idea but it meant very little to you? Have heard of the 4 Spiritual Laws?

This came across to me as questioning the validity of rameumptom's experiences, feelings and discrediting his story. If I jumped to the wrong conclusion, I apologize.

There's a lot of folks from other faiths who are less than Christian in their thoughts and feelings about Mormonism. On one all-ecompassing Christian board, one of the moderators of the site told me that "The Mormons" deserved to be driven from state to state, murdered, plundered, raped and assaulted. Why did they deserve it? Because they said mean things and weren't good neighbors, at least according to her. Everyone there wholeheartedly agreed with her. Nobody said a peep to the contrary. I had to leave that board to keep it from permanently tainting my good feelings towards all non-LDS Christians.

There is a tremendous need in Christendom to attack "Mormonism." We deal with it all the time. Some are sneaky and deceptive. Some are very forthright. It can make a person paranoid.

Incidentally, most non-denominational groups tend towards evangelical belief sets. Not sure if that's what rameumptom was a part of though.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Faded

[Galatians220]

My reason for leaving out so much of my past history is quite simply because I did not want to turn this discussion into that of only intellectual. In your OP you want to know what argument most convinced me to change my mind. There wasn't any argument. My conversion came strictly as a spiritual converstion. I'm not saying that I didn't use my intellect/reasoning to continue my conversion, but, that it started out very spiritually. How I came to have my testimony is not as important as having it. I've only been a member going on 5 years now and my testimony grows stronger as I study all the scriptures and pray daily to understand what I am reading.

As I said before, I was raised Baptist. I believed what I was told. In the seminary classes I did start questioning and was unsatisfied with the answers I received. But we tend to stay where we are comfortable and so I stayed. I told you that my sisters had joined the LDS church -- they were in their teens when they joined -- they are ten and twelve years older than I am. I watched the kind of people they turned into and I admired their commitment to their church and families. In those days my attitude was, 'I'm glad they have found a church they like.'

I do have answers for why I now believe so strongly what the LDS church teaches -- however, I really do feel it is fruitless to start giving you a bunch of scriptures that I feel back up my beliefs

Prisonchaplin, who I greatly admire and have learned a great deal from, considers our beliefs heretical. I'm not sure that I will be able to say anything that will change your mind, and I know for sure that you will not be able to change my mind. I have received my answer from Heavenly Father that this is the true church and that Jesus Christ is the head of this church, that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, that the priesthood has been restored, and that the Prophet Joseph Smith was the prophet of God who brought about this restoration. I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is led today by a prophet of God and apostles.

I have seen too many times on these threads debates starting over interpretations of scriptures -- like I stated -- how I came to have a strong testimony is not as important as the fact that I have one.

I'm sorry, :(I know this is not what you want. Maybe I shouldn't have posted in the first place. It's hard not to want to share my testimony and so that is why I posted in the beginning.:)

It's understandable why you don't want to have any debate because what you've experienced as a learning Mormon far exceeds arguments no matter how crafty or convincing.

As for the reasons why you've posted, I understand that too. It wasn't what I was looking for but to you, your testimony is the evidence that you do have.

If it is alright with you though, can you tell me what you've learned while at Seminary school and if you're willing, or if it is not too personal, can you tell me those questions that your fellow seminarians and teachers failed to answer?

[Galatians220]

I have to agree with candyprpl. I had a spiritual conversion first, not an intellectual one.

To describe the conversion any more than I have would be impossible. It would be like trying to describe the taste of salt to a person who had never experienced it.

As it is, I can talk circles around most people when it comes exegesis and eisegesis. However, while these things have often affirmed my testimony, my testimony came as did Paul's: not of man, nor of men, but by revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Testimony is a very personal story that only the person him/herself knows, you're right. The only one who knows the horrors and complexities of war is a soldier who has been there, and not an anti-war protester or a journalist.

[Galatians220]

...

...

This came across to me as questioning the validity of rameumptom's experiences, feelings and discrediting his story. If I jumped to the wrong conclusion, I apologize.

It's OK, at first glance it does appear to be questioning Rameuptoms testimony. My motivation is to learn the quality and the volumn of his past learning and how that played a role into his conversion. If he was just someone who grew up in church then at least I get to know his church but as for his bible training, if he had none at all, I'll have to look for someone else.

There's a lot of folks from other faiths who are less than Christian in their thoughts and feelings about Mormonism. On one all-ecompassing Christian board, one of the moderators of the site told me that "The Mormons" deserved to be driven from state to state, murdered, plundered, raped and assaulted. Why did they deserve it? Because they said mean things and weren't good neighbors, at least according to her. Everyone there wholeheartedly agreed with her. Nobody said a peep to the contrary. I had to leave that board to keep it from permanently tainting my good feelings towards all non-LDS Christians.

She ought to know that not all Mormons are the same. Some are mean, but what church or group that doesn't have a few of them? With me, almost every Mormon I've met are very warm and friendly.

There is a tremendous need in Christendom to attack "Mormonism." We deal with it all the time. Some are sneaky and deceptive. Some are very forthright. It can make a person paranoid.

It can and I understand. The Catholics experienced that too from every fundamentalist group that claimed to believe in Scripture.

Incidentally, most non-denominational groups tend towards evangelical belief sets. Not sure if that's what rameumptom was a part of though.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is true.

[Gramajane]

I have encountered over the many years I have had discussions with other in real face to face and over the internet- (I'm 61) that there are those who have even just joined the church, to be able to SAY they WERE LDS.

I have had some who say they left believing and going to the church- (but they keep their membership-- their reasoning is in doubt to me) and then they go on line and seem to do all they can to destroy the church! Some have claimed they were taught things totally contrary to church teachings--and granted some might have some new member teacher that does not teach doctrine-- but to then *insist* that what false doctrine they were taught *is* official church doctrine- though it contradicts the canonized standard works (KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, & Pearl of Great Price) -- is so (as my sons would say) lame and bogus!

Anyway-- it only makes sense to me-- if someone is wanting to learn about LDS --

which is the re-established original Christian church--

that they will go to a reliable source- and be happy to find something that didn't feel right to them-- to NOT be right-- not keep insisting that LDS *must* believe something that we all say we don't! -- just because some anti book said we do believe something.

Anyway-- that is my two cents worth, from my own experiences with other.

It HAS been wonderful over the years to find someone who REALLY wants to know what we believe, and will believe that we believe what we say we do.

It has been so incredible to read/hear that some say that LDS have two different "doctrines" one that they SAY to non members that we believe, and another that we do believe-- sheeish-- how confusing would that be! It is hard enough to get the TRUE doctrines straight!

I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and have felt my life blessed the closer I follow His teachings. Gramajane

[Galatians220]

I have encountered over the many years I have had discussions with other in real face to face and over the internet- (I'm 61) that there are those who have even just joined the church, to be able to SAY they WERE LDS.

I'm sorry your church have so many of them.

I have had some who say they left believing and going to the church- (but they keep their membership-- their reasoning is in doubt to me) and then they go on line and seem to do all they can to destroy the church! Some have claimed they were taught things totally contrary to church teachings--and granted some might have some new member teacher that does not teach doctrine-- but to then *insist* that what false doctrine they were taught *is* official church doctrine- though it contradicts the canonized standard works (KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, & Pearl of Great Price) -- is so (as my sons would say) lame and bogus!

Did they say anything inflammatory about the church? I met a few anti-mormons over at youtube and they absolutely hate the LDS church alleging that Joseph Smith was a Mason, the LDS is Masonic through and through with secret rites etc. One claimed that he was a former member and his reasoning for his attacks is that he doesn't want anyone else to be deceived. Is this the sort of stuff you hear coming out of those impostors?

Anyway-- it only makes sense to me-- if someone is wanting to learn about LDS --

which is the re-established original Christian church--

that they will go to a reliable source- and be happy to find something that didn't feel right to them-- to NOT be right-- not keep insisting that LDS *must* believe something that we all say we don't! -- just because some anti book said we do believe something.

What are those thing they claimed the Mormons believed, but really don't?

Anyway-- that is my two cents worth, from my own experiences with other.

It HAS been wonderful over the years to find someone who REALLY wants to know what we believe, and will believe that we believe what we say we do.

It has been so incredible to read/hear that some say that LDS have two different "doctrines" one that they SAY to non members that we believe, and another that we do believe-- sheeish-- how confusing would that be! It is hard enough to get the TRUE doctrines straight!

I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and have felt my life blessed the closer I follow His teachings. Gramajane

Does the church pass out cards or books disclaiming those doctrines that they've never advocated? Why has there been so many mistake doctrines?