The Righteous VS. The Good

[Dove]

Traveler,

I did write a response in answer to you last post....

I deleted it because

1) This line of discussion is bothering Maxel

2) I feel I do have quite a different perspective on the necessity of opposition (ie, pain and suffering) in life, that not only you, but others may not understand or agree with it, and therefore may become bothered or upset by it

3) What I see as positive discussion may be construed by others as contentious, or somehow negative in it's tone as well as content

4) I'm not comfortable disclosing my views on opposition, given the resistance to what already has been posted.

I am grateful for Grandmakabipbip. Her posts addressed to the fullest here if not the need for opposition, the results of our choices with them.

I feel this could have lead on to an enlightening discussion about the need for the atonement in connection with opposition.

I'm sorry if what I have written has been contentious or caused such feelings......

Dove

[Snow]

I really hate that my thread has become the fodder for intellectual discussion about how modern, fallen morals render the Book of Mormon untrue.

.

I knowww.

Isn't it just such a drag when someone has a different viewpoint that yours. If only there had been a plan whereby we could all be forced to think and do the exact same things.

If only.

[Elphaba]

I'm so done with this topic and am having difficulty watching others mutilate it.

What is the point asking the mods to close a thread? If it's still active, obviously people want to continue the discussion.

Just stop posting to it.

Elphaba

[Snow]

Hey, Snow,

I can't state it more clearly.....And you certainly have the mental capacity to understand the words/meaning/intent of what was just stated. I certainly can give you example upon example of how many people have been called to suffer and die for Christ's name, throughout the Book of Mormon and Bible. However, because of your intellectual prowess and position as a moderator here. I have assumed that you are 1) LDS, 2) have read and studied the scriptures, meaning Book of Mormon and Bible, a great deal, and 3) believe that the writings are true and correct. Am I wrong in these assumptions? If so, may I ask, what do you believe?

I'm not a moderator anymore. Standards of decency good taste required me to resign.

I understand what the scriptures say and I accept that the BoM is true but:

1. There are different understandings of what "true" means. It need not mean 100% historically accurate. The Bible is not always historically accurate but it is true.

2. If it is true that God kills, or allows to be killed, the innocent, I have yet to see how that can be reconciled with notions of justice and covenant.

As far as "child's fairy tales" goes, I would suggest a different jab. (Sorry, it did seem like a jab to me.) The reason being, is it seems to me far more childish and dismissive of the whole issue of human suffering at large to not address that extreme suffering is the norm in our world, not the exception. Millions of people every day die slow, heinous deaths not only of torture and murder, but by accidents. Mamy more live long lives of misery by many different circumstances. If we were going about this from a totally logical, reasonable, proof-ridden, and I believe the word is empirical, standpoint, even believing in God would seem just a "childish fairytale" to me....

I don't think that Job is a fairy tale but neither is it historical. It is allegorical. Brigham Young believed that other parts of the Bible were simply tales and I agree with him.

[Just_A_Guy]

I knowww.

Isn't it just such a drag when someone has a different viewpoint that yours. If only there had been a plan whereby we could all be forced to think and do the exact same things.

If only.

Luckily, there is no proof that such a plan exists now, or ever existed.

[Snow]

What is the point asking the mods to close a thread? If it's still active, obviously people want to continue the discussion.

Just stop posting to it.

Elphaba

It drives me nuts when people want to shut off discussion because they don't like other's opinions. Thread starters do not own the discussion, they merely initiate it.

What makes message boards so educational and enlightening is the interplay of differing opinions.

[Snow]

You did say, "My point is that I cannot reconcile the concept of a just and benevolent god with the portrait of a God that 1. proactively kills innocent life and to a lesser extent 2 stands by idly while innocent life suffers." How do you reconcile the concept of a just and benevolent God with the suffering inherent in life?

"Faith" comes to my mind, as well as hope. I do have ideas and reasoning about this...but those come a great deal as my own opinion; so, unless invited, I'll not share them right now.

I do ask again what do you believe, and why? I'm interested.......

So that's a different question - theodicy - than the question of whether or not God proactively kills innocent people.

It is one of the oldest of all philosophical questions and has never been successfully solved. I think that LDS doctrine comes the closest to solving it because it includes not only free will but also co-eternal existence, man along with God... ie, not only does man have free will, but God did not create man's essence - his intelligence - and so is not on the hook for the free will actions of His creation.

[Connie]

What is the point asking the mods to close a thread? If it's still active, obviously people want to continue the discussion.

Just stop posting to it.

Elphaba

Or those who wish to take the conversation in a different direction could start a separate thread of their own... don't know, just a thought.

[Maxel]

I was extremely angry when I posted earlier. My apologies.

I'd still like to see the thread closed. But since I don't "own" the thread, I guess that isn't within my "right". Heaven forbid people should take the conversation elsewhere so as not to continue the tangential discussions! Silly me; I'm just an idiot.

Yes, my motives are to stifle discussion of contrary opinions like Satan. You got me Snow, you discerning person you.

[Dove]

I was extremely angry when I posted earlier. My apologies.

I'd still like to see the thread closed. But since I don't "own" the thread, I guess that isn't within my "right". Heaven forbid people should take the conversation elsewhere so as not to continue the tangential discussions! Silly me; I'm just an idiot.

Yes, my motives are to stifle discussion of contrary opinions like Satan. You got me Snow, you discerning person you.

Maxel,

Yes, the anger is coming through! What are you so angry at? That this thread diverged? You didn't feel like your questions were answered from your original post? We're saying things that are against our religion? What?

I could get all preachy and defend why what has already been posted before now is okay; but, the point being is apparently this is not okay to you. I would like to know from you, in kind and respectful terms, what is bothering you?

[Maxel]

I could get all preachy and defend why what has already been posted before now is okay; but, the point being is apparently this is not okay to you. I would like to know from you, in kind and respectful terms, what is bothering you?

Not you. Apologies for not being sufficiently clear.

I'm angry at everything tonight. I'm sorry I'm taking it out on you.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Maxel

[Snow]

I'd still like to see the thread closed. But since I don't "own" the thread, I guess that isn't within my "right". Heaven forbid people should take the conversation elsewhere so as not to continue the tangential discussions! Silly me; I'm just an idiot.

Don't be so hard on yourself Maxel. Not everyone thinks you are an idiot.

May I remind you of the question that started this thread"

"Will the Lord forestall destroying a city/nation for the sake of those living Terrestrial-level lives?"

Discussing whether God destroys cities and nations IS the topic that you raised.

[Maxel]

Snow-

I apologize for my indendiary remarks. Thank you for showing patience where I did not. ANd I'm glad to know that not EVERYONE thinks I'm an idiot- at least a few people like me!

[Snow]

Snow-

I apologize for my indendiary remarks. Thank you for showing patience where I did not. ANd I'm glad to know that not EVERYONE thinks I'm an idiot- at least a few people like me!

It's good to maintain a thick skin and sense of humor.

Cheers.

[Dove]

Not you. Apologies for not being sufficiently clear.

I'm angry at everything tonight. I'm sorry I'm taking it out on you.

Hey Maxel,

Shall we both stop apologizing to each other? LOL......I think we both feel bad about this....

I feel bad you're not having a good night tonight. Let us know if you would like to discuss it or just deal with it on your own...

I didn't feel you were really taking it out on me specifically....I wasn't sure what the problem was

I like the discussion that was progressing here. If it's okay with you, I would like to respond to Traveler's rebuttal to my opinion. I could always do that with another thread. It would just take more time and effort to do so. I'm pretty worn out today...

Anyway, no ill will, and empathy for what you're coping with right now......

[Maxel]

Keep going. Thanks for asking.

[Dove]

ps, what does indendiary mean?

[Maxel]

It's a synonym for 'inflammatory'. Incendiary

[Dove]

I see that you and I differ in basic fundamentals.

I'm wondering, what "fundamentals" do you see us as disagreeing at? I think our perception of life is quite different from one another. That is in part why I asked if you had experienced "profound suffering" in your journey through life? Oftentimes that kind of suffering deeply effects a person's perspective.....

For me the joy is in the journey. Joy in a destination is temporary and fleeting. Joy for me is not in obtaining but the means.

Mmmm, yes, I've certainly heard this "ideaology" before....I find it awful hard to find joy in life, personally. I have a lot of things going that cause me consistent heartache and grief~I find "joy" a state of mind to work for and ultimately to be granted by the Spirit, not something I alone can produce or contrive...

I believe many people set themselves up so that it is impossible for them to be happy. Allow me to give an example.

Wow, that seems like quite a leap of presumption to me.....Do you really believe a person's innate desire is to destroy their life and be unhappy?!

Most everybody wants to have a strong healthy body. They also want to eat unhealthy foods and leave the hard work and exercise to someone else. Therefore they can never be happy. They are either unhappy because they have to exercise and diet or they are unhappy because they are overweight and embarrassed to look at themselves in a mirror.

In this case the great secret of happiness in learning to enjoy eating good food and exercising and doing hard work. It is not doing just what is necessary (because it is not fun) for a sleek body or eating what tastes good and being horrified at your looks.

Yikes, this rhetoric is so typical; i.e., Just work really hard, make the effort, do your best, and all will be well.....you'll succeed, and achieve your goal.

What bothers me about this is the unstated belief that if one is suffering, grieving, or struggling, it must be their fault. A lack of trying, exerting, faith or whatever. I, myself, have been at the receiving end of that kind of judgmentalism....Doesn't matter what extreme harshness life has dealt me.....I must have sinned or done something wrong or come up short for how I'm coping with the blows dealt. This is so unfair! How do you/anyone know what I have done/not done to warrant/not warrant what has been handed to me?! How do you know I haven't done my best, and still don't have the coveted "joy," "happiness," "answers" sought for....

The joy and glory of G-d is in the love and compassion of others –

I certainly hope that you do find "joy and glory" in cultivating more compassion and understanding for those who truly suffer, daily........

we do not have to wait for heaven to experience the joy and glory of G-d.

I really don't get this......my interpretation of what has been stated in the BofM is that all joy, all good comes from God through the atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a divine gift.....

I also submit that the harder it is the do the right thing the greater the joy (and glory) is in doing it.

Yeah, it goes back to the standpoint that it is all up to us, and that we have the capacity to do the right thing, on our own, and that it is to our glory. That our efforts win/merit that. IMO, there are so many things that I don't have the capacity to do. That it is only through Christ's grace that my righteous desires can be fulfilled.....

The Traveler

I feel like you are approaching this from your perspective/experience of life, which is one way to do so.....Obviously we are very different in our aspects.....

Traveler, while you, somewhat chasteningly and correctively, said that people focus "too much on death and suffering, you still haven't answered my question as to why there is so much suffering inherent in life, and why God allows it, when He has the power to stop it.

Instead, I feel you have downplayed the point, dismissed it as not being so bad, etc. I strongly disagree with this.

[drjackcv]

At age 61, I'm humbled to say that I just found out that the Lord considers both Terrestrial and Celestial souls to be righteous.

Joseph Fielding Smith taught that both will be welcome to live on earth during the Millennium. (Doc. of Salvation, [1954–56], 2:167, 251–52)

The Prophet taught that Enoch's city was terrestrialized, not celestialized, when it was taken up. ("History of Joseph Smith," Deseret News, Vol. V, No. 11; quoted in John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, p.72-75)

Like Traveler, I categorized the Terrestrial souls as "wicked" in my theological thinking, for most of my life. Even though I knew that they are honorable. It was a gospel paradox that I did not confront. Like all seeming gospel paradoxes, a great truth was hiding behind it.

Wicked refers only to Telestial and Perdition & Sons.

Look at D&C 76:132: Liars create victims. Victim is a sister word to wicked.

Sorcerers practice wicca. Wicca is a sister word to wicked.

Whoremongers are pimps. Pimps are violent and vicious -- both sister words to wicked.

The Lord even takes pains to clarify that these are not just people who lie, but who love to lie.

In that verse, he clearly defines the wicked.

The world is the telestial kingdom. The telestials rule. Spiritual wickedness in high places.

The Church is the terrestrial kingdom. Much better than the telestial, but not celestial. We have many celestial souls in the Church, but the Celestial kingdom is somewhere else. We also have many honorable, intelligent, friendly, helpful Terrestrial souls in the Church -- and they are perfectly welcome in the Church and in the Millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ.

We also have a few Telestial souls in the Church -- hence keys in the lockers of the temples.

We need to honor these honorable men and women, invite all to come unto Christ, but not be critical if they are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus. They love His appearing, and that is enough to justify them in the ultra-magnificent, happy Terrestrial kingdom forever, enjoying the company of other honorable people and the direct administration of Celestial people.

In the scriptures of every great religion that I have studied, the doctrine of this life being a testing and proving is fundamental. The exams in any class are probationary, and generally not fun. This is an exam, and every grade is happiness. Even Perdition & Sons will enjoy their own place (D&C 88:32). Now that's a Great Plan of Happiness! What kind of God would promote such a plan? (2 Ne 26:24; 1 Ne 11:22, 23)

[drjackcv]

Now, the next issue is what sort of part do honorable, intelligent Terrestrial souls desire to play in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do such people want to be contributors? What common characteristics do they and the Celestial souls share?

[Traveler]

Now, the next issue is what sort of part do honorable, intelligent Terrestrial souls desire to play in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do such people want to be contributors? What common characteristics do they and the Celestial souls share?

A righteous soul finds joy in following the "way" or path of righteousness.

The Traveler

[drjackcv]

Thanks, Traveler. Pretty cryptic, and only partially true.

Jesus is the way. Terrestrial souls love what Jesus does for them, but they don't really seem determined to be like him. They want to be close to the path, but free to wander a bit in the bush. Still, most of my neighbours keep their yards neat and trimmed, their cars clean, try to pay their bills on time and to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

Yet, in my ward, many leaders are slow to expect good, honorable members to contribute regularly to the work of the Kingdom. They repeat over and over, "What can we do to help you?"

Righteous people want to contribute. President Eyring said in the Apr 2011 conference, "First, all people are happier and feel more self-respect when they can provide for themselves and their family and then reach out to take care of others. First. All. Powerful words.

Terrestrial souls don't love to lie and avoid responsibility.

So how do we help honorable men and women of the world to be honorable, contributing members in the Kingdom?

[RescueMom]

Er....how do we go about determining who is Terrestrial soul and Celestial soul? I don't live with every member of my ward, and I am not really good at mind reading so I am not sure if I would be able to tell.

[drjackcv]

Good question. I don't think anyone has the answer to that one. My understanding is that "judge not" applies to that kind of judgment more than any other.

So my question is, what are the common donominators? What are the characteristics that Celestial and Terrestrial people share?

One, I think, is expressed by President Eyring, "First, all people are happier and feel more self-respect when they can provide for themselves and their family and then reach out to take care of others." To me this means that we can count on the person in the pew at church wanting to be self-reliant and to be a contributor. They want to "take care of others", and our job as leaders in the Church is to invite every person to come to Christ and expedite their contributions.

The vision that President Eyring shows us, and that which my reading and observations around the world for the past 40 years gives me, is that virtually every person in our church or neighbourhood wants to help out, and appreciates those who invite, nudge, urge and thank them. Put another way, though I forget where I first heard this, "We love those we serve more than we love those who serve us."

This is one reason, I think, why we heard the following in Nov 2010 Worldwide Training:

ELDER BEDNAR: A caution: In our appropriate desire to be anxiously engaged, we cannot violate the very welfare principles that we are trying to teach. Everything that we do needs to foster self-reliance. We can be too quick to do too much and make people dependent rather than self-reliant.

ELDER BALLARD: Very good point. Very good point.