Is this possible?

[Maxel]

Grandmakabipbip-

I'm sorry if you felt I condemned you; such was not my intention. I haven't seen any references you've backed up your statements with- perhaps I missed them? If you mean your own personal accounts- I'm not inclined to disbelieve them, but I personally have to weigh anecdotal evidence in my mind for a time and let the Lord have a say in the matter before I accept/reject them. The idea that Satan could enter the temple- that he could bring his spiritual body into the consecrated grounds of the temple- is quite a stretch for me. From experience, I know that new concepts that stretch my understanding aren't always false. Do you have any scriptures you could point to that might support what you're saying?

I've been thinking of Moses, when Satan appeared to him. Judging by the narrative in Moses 1, he saw the Lord and Satan in the same general area- but it wasn't in a temple, it was atop a high mountain.

[Gwen]

so the only time someone would make a wrong choice is under the influence of satan? if i do something wrong it's cause satan was by my side tempting me?

i'm sorry has anyone heard of the natural man? sometimes ppl make bad choices. sometimes little children make wrong choices (even though we have been told they can not be tempted). ppl that let satan influence them are more likely to make the poor choices all on their own without his help. just like ppl that follow christ are more likely to make good decisions and know the right thing to do without the holy ghost giving them incessent instruction. i think when "bad" things happen in the temple, it is due to choices of the person not because satan is wandering the halls.

come on ppl what ever happened to accountablility and agency?

[Grandmakabipbip]

How true.

[Grandmakabipbip]

There is a scripture in Moroni 10 which states 'all good cometh of Christ'... is seems to follow-- 'all evil cometh of satan or his kind.' As a man thinketh-- is another good one. If satan can influence our thoughts-- then--

Sorry-- that first reference is in Moroni 7-- : D

Edited September 8, 2009 by Grandmakabipbip

[Grandmakabipbip]

Moro. 7: 12, 24

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

[Snow]

so the only time someone would make a wrong choice is under the influence of satan? if i do something wrong it's cause satan was by my side tempting me?

i'm sorry has anyone heard of the natural man? sometimes ppl make bad choices. sometimes little children make wrong choices (even though we have been told they can not be tempted). ppl that let satan influence them are more likely to make the poor choices all on their own without his help. just like ppl that follow christ are more likely to make good decisions and know the right thing to do without the holy ghost giving them incessent instruction. i think when "bad" things happen in the temple, it is due to choices of the person not because satan is wandering the halls.

come on ppl what ever happened to accountablility and agency?

You're right. I am responsible for my own actions - I wonder why Satan has never tempted me but is constantly tempting others? Do you suppose he is afraid of me or hasn't yet noticed that I exist or what?

[Grandmakabipbip]

Maybe you have to be important for Satan to bother with ya... just a thought.

[Traveler]

so the only time someone would make a wrong choice is under the influence of satan? if i do something wrong it's cause satan was by my side tempting me?

.........

come on ppl what ever happened to accountablility and agency?

First off I love your name:

Agency is a very interesting word. When someone makes a wrong choice they are acting as an agent of who? G-d or Satan? It is my impression that most people have no clue what agency means. When you buy auto insurance you contact an agent of the company you want to do business with. Agency is the power to act in behalf of someone else. We can act in behalf of G-d or Satan. If there is another option - I have never found it because at some point what ever we do represents one or the other.

I wonder if some people do not want to admit who they are acting for - maybe they think that how they behave does not really matter - it only matters if you really care about who you are acting for.

The Traveler

Edited September 9, 2009 by Traveler

[pam]

Maybe you have to be important for Satan to bother with ya... just a thought.

There ya go Snow. You just aren't important enough for Satan to bother with you.

[Snow]

There ya go Snow. You just aren't important enough for Satan to bother with you.

Oh well - I guess I'll just have to take responsibility for my own actions instead of blaming it on the Prince of Darkness.

[Gwen]

You're right. I am responsible for my own actions - I wonder why Satan has never tempted me but is constantly tempting others? Do you suppose he is afraid of me or hasn't yet noticed that I exist or what?

my theory is he has you on ignore.... that's what the rest of us do...

[ryanh]

Forgive me for interrupting the tangential direction the thread has taken. I wanted to post something related to the OP and responses to the OP.

We in the Church have rightly been taught that divorce and broken homes are destructive to society and to individual happiness, but certainly we have not been taught that we, therefore, have the right to judge divorced people as evil. They are usually, in fact, people who have suffered much anguish, who are burdened with a terrible sense of their own failure, and who have made a decision to separate only when it seemed to them that no other avenues were open. For members of the Church, such a decision is perhaps the most difficult of their lives. Only the Lord, who can see into their hearts, is in a position to make a judgment against them. For the membership of the Church, Jesus’ instructions seem clear through his example of forgiveness and his warning to sinners who would cast stones at other sinners.

Ensign » 1975 » June After Divorce

[john doe]

my theory is he has you on ignore.... that's what the rest of us do...

Oh, that's what they claim, but we all know they read him trying to trip him up. Hmmmmmm, who else do we know of that does that too?

[Grandmakabipbip]

First off I love your name:

Agency is a very interesting word. When someone makes a wrong choice they are acting as an agent of who? G-d or Satan? It is my impression that most people have no clue what agency means. When you buy auto insurance you contact an agent of the company you want to do business with. Agency is the power to act in behalf of someone else. We can act in behalf of G-d or Satan. If there is another option - I have never found it because at some point what ever we do represents one or the other.

I wonder if some people do not want to admit who they are acting for - maybe they think that how they behave does not really matter - it only matters if you really care about who you are acting for.

The Traveler

Great information. We are too acustomed to old hearsay word meanings. We do the same thing with doctrines. Thanks for the breath of fresh air.

[Grandmakabipbip]

Scriptures are mostly anecdotal-- just written by ancient men, some prophets, others leaders, others witnesses.

I wouldn't discount an idea or concept on the basis of it not being found in the scriptures. as they are quite abridged and much of them missing. Also, temples were not a main subject found in the scriptures.

If I were interested in temples, and what happened within them, I would go to a source of modern origin.

Now that is just me. If you could show me a scriptural reference that detailed a daily experience in a temple where something other than routines, I would be really interested.

[Snow]

my theory is he has you on ignore.... that's what the rest of us do...

Aarrrggggh.

Yet another case of the eternal oppression heaped upon me by the moderators. :)

[Gwen]

satan and the moderators are on the same team?.... that explains a lot of what goes on around here. lol

[Snow]

Okay Gwen,

I admit - your post is funnier than mine - and I wish I had thought of it first.

[pam]

Aarrrggggh.

Yet another case of the eternal oppression heaped upon me by the moderators. :)

What did you say? I have you on ignore.

[ferretrunner]

Nobody gets away with anything in this life, especially not something as evil, destructive & abusive as divorce. As Pres. Packer said a few months back, "Everyone knows when they do wrong." Members of the Church especially, have no excuse that they didn't know (or couldn't have found out) how serious & sacred their marriage vows were, it's very easy to find this out, if one will just search, ponder & pray alittle. Only we are to blame if we don't do that & are thus deceived to break our sacred temple covenants.

Since divorce can only be justified in the most rare of circumstances, as the Prophets say, (& sadly most everyone thinks that God confirmed their decision to divorce & that their situation is that rare one) all the rest who are deceived by the Adversary's whisperings & divorce unjustifiably & cancel their sealings & remarry, will not get away with it at all. The Prophets have warned that unjustified divorce is one of the most serious sins a person can commit & that those who do it will lose their Exaltation, no matter how many leaders they deceive here on earth, as they declare themselves justified & worthy. They will have to one day face & pay for their sins & the lives & hearts they destroyed, as they chose to put their own needs, happiness & welfare before their spouse's & children's.

What if one partner wants the divorce and the other doesn't? That happens. And the divorce would be granted by legal authorities.

I would also think in the case of domestic violence and/or significant, unchanging substance abuse, a divorce is better than staying. Sometimes one partner isn't responsible for the actions/inactions of the other.

[foreverafter]

Actually, one study said that in as much as 80% of divorces one spouse forces it on the other. So yes, it does happen, alot & those are usually the most destructive kind of divorces, especially when the abandoned spouse was a good & faithful spouse who was trying to make the marriage work.

In such a case, if the abandoned spouse was faithful to their marriage covenants than the divorce is not valid with God & the couple is still really married & sealed (if the faithful spouse wants it to be & doesn't date) & the one who was unrighteous & left, is out living in adultery by dating or remarriage, cause they are still married to the 1st spouse, if they weren't justified to divorce. It's impossible to get out of a marriage to a faithful spouse who wants the marriage to remain intact.

And yes, I agree, there are 'rare' times when one might be justified to seek a divorce, usually for legal protection 24/7 for themselves & their children. But a divorce for protection still does not break the marriage or their marriage covenants, unless he or she starts to date & looks for someone new. If the faithful spouse wants the marriage to continue, even after divorce, then they just must remain faithful & keep their covenants to the unrighteous spouse (& not date) but stay at a safe distance until the other spouse repents, in this life or the next. But taking the long lonely road for greater blessings is not easy to do & so many end the marriage & sealing to the unrighteous spouse by breaking their covenants by dating.

And again I agree with you, if your spouse is abusive, you usually have no responsiblity for their abusive actions, unless their abusive actions are self-defense from your abuse. Abuse is an addiction to the perks that come from power & control.

Edited September 11, 2009 by foreverafter

[pam]

If the faithful spouse wants the marriage to continue, even after divorce, then they just must remain faithful & keep their covenants to the unrighteous spouse (& not date) but stay at a safe distance until the other spouse repents, in this life or the next

Let me make sure I understand this...So a person who is divorced because of an indiscretion of the other person...should never date again during this life? But must wait until the person they are divorced from repents?

[Gwen]

Actually, one study said that in as much as 80% of divorces one spouse forces it on the other. So yes, it does happen, alot & those are usually the most destructive kind of divorces, especially when the abandoned spouse was a good & faithful spouse who was trying to make the marriage work.

In such a case, if the abandoned spouse was faithful to their marriage covenants than the divorce is not valid with God & the couple is still really married & sealed (if the faithful spouse wants it to be & doesn't date) & the one who was unrighteous & left, is out living in adultery by dating or remarriage, cause they are still married to the 1st spouse, if they weren't justified to divorce. It's impossible to get out of a marriage to a faithful spouse who wants the marriage to remain intact.

And yes, I agree, there are 'rare' times when one might be justified to seek a divorce, usually for legal protection 24/7 for themselves & their children. But a divorce for protection still does not break the marriage or their marriage covenants, unless he or she starts to date & looks for someone new. If the faithful spouse wants the marriage to continue, even after divorce, then they just must remain faithful & keep their covenants to the unrighteous spouse (& not date) but stay at a safe distance until the other spouse repents, in this life or the next. But taking the long lonely road for greater blessings is not easy to do & so many end the marriage & sealing to the unrighteous spouse by breaking their covenants by dating.

And again I agree with you, if your spouse is abusive, you usually have no responsiblity for their abusive actions, unless their abusive actions are self-defense from your abuse. Abuse is an addiction to the perks that come from power & control.

i would like to see every word of this backed up with quotes and references from official church sources or the words (in all caps and bold) "this is my personal views and musings on divorce"

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS MY PERSONAL REQUEST AS A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM NOT INSTRUCTIONS AS A MODERATOR.

[Traveler]

Actually, one study said that in as much as 80% of divorces one spouse forces it on the other. So yes, it does happen, alot & those are usually the most destructive kind of divorces, especially when the abandoned spouse was a good & faithful spouse who was trying to make the marriage work.

In such a case, if the abandoned spouse was faithful to their marriage covenants than the divorce is not valid with God & the couple is still really married & sealed (if the faithful spouse wants it to be & doesn't date) & the one who was unrighteous & left, is out living in adultery by dating or remarriage, cause they are still married to the 1st spouse, if they weren't justified to divorce. It's impossible to get out of a marriage to a faithful spouse who wants the marriage to remain intact.

And yes, I agree, there are 'rare' times when one might be justified to seek a divorce, usually for legal protection 24/7 for themselves & their children. But a divorce for protection still does not break the marriage or their marriage covenants, unless he or she starts to date & looks for someone new. If the faithful spouse wants the marriage to continue, even after divorce, then they just must remain faithful & keep their covenants to the unrighteous spouse (& not date) but stay at a safe distance until the other spouse repents, in this life or the next. But taking the long lonely road for greater blessings is not easy to do & so many end the marriage & sealing to the unrighteous spouse by breaking their covenants by dating.

And again I agree with you, if your spouse is abusive, you usually have no responsiblity for their abusive actions, unless their abusive actions are self-defense from your abuse. Abuse is an addiction to the perks that come from power & control.

I do not doubt the study you reference – however, it has been my experience in dealing with those that have gone through a divorce that it is always the other partner that is the cause of it all, that they are the loving and faithful one that was mistreated.

What I personally find interesting is that in marriages that are strong and endure – each partner actually believes that it is mostly because of the love and kindness of the other partner. So it would appear that those that think that their love is what keeps the marriage going are very likely to have a rather crappy marriage and those that accept the love of their spouse as the primary contribution are likely to have a good marriage.

The Traveler

[john doe]

Actually, one study said that in as much as 80% of divorces one spouse forces it on the other. So yes, it does happen, alot & those are usually the most destructive kind of divorces, especially when the abandoned spouse was a good & faithful spouse who was trying to make the marriage work.

In such a case, if the abandoned spouse was faithful to their marriage covenants than the divorce is not valid with God & the couple is still really married & sealed (if the faithful spouse wants it to be & doesn't date) & the one who was unrighteous & left, is out living in adultery by dating or remarriage, cause they are still married to the 1st spouse, if they weren't justified to divorce. It's impossible to get out of a marriage to a faithful spouse who wants the marriage to remain intact.

And yes, I agree, there are 'rare' times when one might be justified to seek a divorce, usually for legal protection 24/7 for themselves & their children. But a divorce for protection still does not break the marriage or their marriage covenants, unless he or she starts to date & looks for someone new. If the faithful spouse wants the marriage to continue, even after divorce, then they just must remain faithful & keep their covenants to the unrighteous spouse (& not date) but stay at a safe distance until the other spouse repents, in this life or the next. But taking the long lonely road for greater blessings is not easy to do & so many end the marriage & sealing to the unrighteous spouse by breaking their covenants by dating.

And again I agree with you, if your spouse is abusive, you usually have no responsiblity for their abusive actions, unless their abusive actions are self-defense from your abuse. Abuse is an addiction to the perks that come from power & control.

Call for references, both as a poster and as a moderator.

I'm especially interested in the claim that the abandoned spouse is still forced to be married no matter what.