In thinking it all over, it comes down to...

[Justice]

TO JUSTICE: Strong Protestant/Catholic converts to your faith will probably make good teachers, good evangelists, and good workers...because, in some ways they work harder to arrive at the same beliefs those born into the church do. BTW, the converse is also true. LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses in particular, who convert to evangelical faith, often become the most diligent laborers in the harvest. Being very familier with the Bible may make a convert a stronger member of your church, but it might also lengthen the journey to conversion.

Agreed.

[AnthonyB]

For me one of the key question about LDS is...is a continuously connected priesthood authority necessary for proper administration of entry into the church of Jesus.

From these forums I gather LDS say that the gospel is in simple form is... believe, repent, confess, be baptised for the remission of sins and receive the holy ghost.

If salvation comes through the blood of Christ's atoning sacrifice, granted by grace through personal faith in His work, repentance from sins, confession in Jesus as Lord and Saviour and being baptised for the remission of sins and then receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands then a proportion of protestants have obeyed the gospel. (Even if they misunderstood the purpose of baptism, the promises of God through baptism are from their obedient faith and being immered into Christ not their level of understanding the intracacies of doctrine).

If entrance to the church is only based on a personal acceptance of Jesus gospel and appropriation of its promises then what need is there for Joseph Smith or the Book Mormon, whether they are true or not would not directly effect my acceptance of the gospel.

If a contiguous priesthood authority is not required then even if I accepted Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Book of Mormon, what need would I have of joining the LDS since my faith response to the gospel has already placed me in Jesus' church.

Edited September 10, 2009 by AnthonyB

[thews]

I may not understand all the doctrine and some of it may not sit quite right with me, but my testimony of Joseph and the Book of Mormon helps me to have faith in those areas.

I don't understand this. Can you explain what doesn't sit quite right with you?

Thanks

[Justice]

AnthonyB, I am off to work soon so I only have time for a short answer.

Joseph Smith said (paraphrase) if you baptize a man in water and do not bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost afterward, you may as well baptize a bag of sand.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost can only be bestowed by proper Priesthood authority. Joseph Smith also said (paraphrase) that the Holy Ghost is the main difference between the CoJCoLDS and all other religions.

(I can find both of those quotes if you wish)

So, you see that the Gift of the Holy Ghost is the key, and it can only be bestowed by the Priesthood as ordained in His true and living Church, not by priesthood given to man after graduating a seminary or in any other way.

[Hemidakota]

whether or not I accept the Book of Mormon as another Testament of Jesus Christ.

My husband and I are practicing Protestants and live a Christian life. We love God. We believe Jesus is the Savior. Etc.

For us, I think that is what it all comes down to: Was Joseph Smith a Prophet? Is the Book of Mormon true? Trying ot figure out theology and this and that...it just comes down to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

What do you think?

Did I miss something?

It is only two questions: 1] Was Joseph Smith called of GOD, and 2] is this the only true and authorized church of GOD?

Everything else will fall into place.

Now, practice some living faith in order for GOD to answer them personally.

[beefche]

I don't understand this. Can you explain what doesn't sit quite right with you?

Thanks

Polygamy is the big one...don't understand it and at this point in my life, cannot accept it. If it is a requirement of the Celestial Kingdom (and I'm not convinced that it is), then I have faith that I will be prepared to accept and embrace it once I make it there. I have some issues with the history of polygamy in our church, but I don't allow things from the past to interfer with my salvation. I can accept that Joseph was a prophet who restored the Lord's church and priesthood. At the same time, I see that Joseph was a man and did things that were probably not right (or tried to do right and messed up like so many of us do). I don't have a problem accepting Joseph as a prophet who made mistakes--I can have faith that I don't know the whole story, didn't live in that time, and do not have God's viewpoint. So I concentrate on what I do believe and build from there.

I also do not understand sealings--I accept that it's necessary, but I honestly just do not understand how it works or the necessity of it. But, I accept that it is necessary and will be sealed when the time is right (I'm single).

[MrsAri]

Polygamy is the big one...

This is interesting...the definition of polygamy, Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

1 : marriage in which a spouse of either sex may have more than one mate at the same time —

BTW, I sympathize with your views on this subject...all I need is another man or two around the house making a big mess.

Edited September 10, 2009 by GrandmaAri

[cougarfan]

AnthonyB, I am off to work soon so I only have time for a short answer.

Joseph Smith said (paraphrase) if you baptize a man in water and do not bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost afterward, you may as well baptize a bag of sand.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost can only be bestowed by proper Priesthood authority. Joseph Smith also said (paraphrase) that the Holy Ghost is the main difference between the CoJCoLDS and all other religions.

(I can find both of those quotes if you wish)

So, you see that the Gift of the Holy Ghost is the key, and it can only be bestowed by the Priesthood as ordained in His true and living Church, not by priesthood given to man after graduating a seminary or in any other way.

Interesting. Except for one problem. I was reading the Book of Commandments recently (which is what the church used before the D&C) and I don't really see the priesthood as we understand it today. The church Joseph Smith founded in 1830 didn't have priesthood offices and such. That seems to have come later after Sidney Rigdon came along about 1833. Am I mistaken on that?

[bytebear]

Interesting. Except for one problem. I was reading the Book of Commandments recently (which is what the church used before the D&C) and I don't really see the priesthood as we understand it today. The church Joseph Smith founded in 1830 didn't have priesthood offices and such. That seems to have come later after Sidney Rigdon came along about 1833. Am I mistaken on that?

The offices were revealed later, but the authority was given in 1829, by the visitation of angels (specifically John the Baptist, and Peter, James and John). Smith was given all the keys of authority, but later understood how to distribute those keys throughout the leaders of the church.

[Justice]

Interesting. Except for one problem. I was reading the Book of Commandments recently (which is what the church used before the D&C) and I don't really see the priesthood as we understand it today. The church Joseph Smith founded in 1830 didn't have priesthood offices and such. That seems to have come later after Sidney Rigdon came along about 1833. Am I mistaken on that?

I don't know why your specific reference to Sidney Rigdon, but he didn't "just" come along into the LDS scene in 1833. He was around long before that.

But, yes, the offices of the Priesthood were in the process of being revealed. They didn't all come at once.

[Hemidakota]

The offices were revealed later, but the authority was given in 1829, by the visitation of angels (specifically John the Baptist, and Peter, James and John). Smith was given all the keys of authority, but later understood how to distribute those keys throughout the leaders of the church.

Surprising, Peter and James are dead [resurrected] while John is still mortal. This would be a strange event when they conferred the priesthood.

[bytebear]

Surprising, Peter and James are dead [resurrected] while John is still mortal. This would be a strange event when they conferred the priesthood.

Nothing more strange than the various angelic visitations recorded in human history. I guess I just don't see anything strange about it.

[cougarfan]

The only problem with basing everything on a spiritual confirmation is that it is so subjective. I mean, would you take a test in school and base your answers on your feelings as opposed to study? There also has to be solid evidence.

I know a number of Muslims. They believe the Quran is true. I asked them how can I know if it is true. They told me that Allah would let me know if it was true if I read it and prayed to Allah.

So what is the difference? You still need solid evidence to back something up. Good feelings are not enough in my humble opinion.

[bytebear]

The only problem with basing everything on a spiritual confirmation is that it is so subjective. I mean, would you take a test in school and base your answers on your feelings as opposed to study? There also has to be solid evidence.

I know a number of Muslims. They believe the Quran is true. I asked them how can I know if it is true. They told me that Allah would let me know if it was true if I read it and prayed to Allah.

So what is the difference? You still need solid evidence to back something up. Good feelings are not enough in my humble opinion.

No, and Jesus didn't ask for just good feelings. He said "By their fruits ye shall know them." What church, per capita, has done more good for mankind than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

[cougarfan]

No, and Jesus didn't ask for just good feelings. He said "By their fruits ye shall know them." What church, per capita, has done more good for mankind than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

I'm sure you would get a lot of different answers from a lot of different people on that one. The LDS church has done a lot of good in the world, but I wish they would publish how much they spend with our tithing money and where it goes. Other churches do that. Then we could see how much good is being done. Our leaders are accused of only spending a tiny portion of tithes on charitable purposes and spending most of it on investments, BYU, Zion place mall, etc. I'm not sure what they are afraid of, anyway,

I know the Catholic church believes they did a lot to help and civilize humanity over hundreds of years. The Muslims believe that Muhammad took a heathen continent and turned it into a whole continent or region of religious believers. Before Mohammad it was a very degenerate region, after he came along, no alcohol, very little promisuity, etc. It is hard to say which "church" has done the most good for mankind.

[cougarfan]

Nothing more strange than the various angelic visitations recorded in human history. I guess I just don't see anything strange about it.

Maybe Peter and James came down in a pillar of light and John arrived by horseback.

[john doe]

I'm sure you would get a lot of different answers from a lot of different people on that one. The LDS church has done a lot of good in the world, but I wish they would publish how much they spend with our tithing money and where it goes. Other churches do that. Then we could see how much good is being done. Our leaders are accused of only spending a tiny portion of tithes on charitable purposes and spending most of it on investments, BYU, Zion place mall, etc. I'm not sure what they are afraid of, anyway,

Tithing may have started the investment arm of the church, but they don't currently support it, it is self-sufficient. BYU is a great use of tithes. Just because people make uneducated accusations like that does not make them true.

I know the Catholic church believes they did a lot to help and civilize humanity over hundreds of years. The Muslims believe that Muhammad took a heathen continent and turned it into a whole continent or region of religious believers. Before Mohammad it was a very degenerate region, after he came along, no alcohol, very little promisuity, etc. It is hard to say which "church" has done the most good for mankind.

You forgot about the terrorist training and car bombing aspect.

[cougarfan]

whether or not I accept the Book of Mormon as another Testament of Jesus Christ.

My husband and I are practicing Protestants and live a Christian life. We love God. We believe Jesus is the Savior. Etc.

For us, I think that is what it all comes down to: Was Joseph Smith a Prophet? Is the Book of Mormon true? Trying ot figure out theology and this and that...it just comes down to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

What do you think?

Did I miss something?

Yes that is a big part of it. Also, is the Book of Abraham true? Is the Book of Moses true? Those were also made scripture. And was he really visited by God, Jesus, Peter, James, John, etc.

[Maxel]

So, if those "subjective feelings" come whenever we ask for a confirmation from God in whatever circumstances- regardless of weather, temperature, health, food eaten, recent events, stress level, etc.- do those feelings ever become less subjective?

[cougarfan]

Tithing may have started the investment arm of the church, but they don't currently support it, it is self-sufficient. BYU is a great use of tithes. Just because people make uneducated accusations like that does not make them true.

You forgot about the terrorist training and car bombing aspect.

Yes, religion has done a lot of harm too. The inquisition, 9/11, Mountain meadows...

[cougarfan]

So, if those "subjective feelings" come whenever we ask for a confirmation from God in whatever circumstances- regardless of weather, temperature, health, food eaten, recent events, stress level, etc.- do those feelings ever become less subjective?

I don't know how to answer that one. You are talking to someone who has been a member of the church for over 40 years, has read the book of Mormon probably 20 plus times cover to cover and never received a spiritual confirmation from the Lord that it is true. I pretty much feel the same feeling when I read it as when I read the bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita, and other religious texts.

I'm probably the only member of the church who has read it and prayed about it hundreds of times and never got a confirmation that it is a true book that came from golden plates that were translated by Joseph Smith.

I feel bad about that. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

[Maxel]

Yes, religion has done a lot of harm too. The inquisition, 9/11, Mountain meadows...

Yes, because Mountain Meadows was very near the scale of both the inquisition and 9/11.

[Maxel]

I don't know how to answer that one. You are talking to someone who has been a member of the church for over 40 years, has read the book of Mormon probably 20 plus times cover to cover and never received a spiritual confirmation from the Lord that it is true. I pretty much feel the same feeling when I read it as when I read the bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita, and other religious texts.

I'm probably the only member of the church who has read it and prayed about it hundreds of times and never got a confirmation that it is a true book that came from golden plates that were translated by Joseph Smith.

I feel bad about that. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Do you have any significant moral problems in your life? Are you willing to change your entire philosophical structure if the Book of Mormon is indeed historical? Are you living in a way that is conducive to feeling the spirit?

Plenty of people seek for answers but do not find them because they either aren't seeking with real intent and/or they refuse to follow the basic counsel given by the prophets (humbling themselves, living chaste lives, and more).

[cougarfan]

Do you have any significant moral problems in your life? Are you willing to change your entire philosophical structure if the Book of Mormon is indeed historical? Are you living in a way that is conducive to feeling the spirit?

Plenty of people seek for answers but do not find them because they either aren't seeking with real intent and/or they refuse to follow the basic counsel given by the prophets (humbling themselves, living chaste lives, and more).

No those are not problems. I've served a mission, have a temple recommend, am active in my callings, I've been in the bishopric too. I'm happily married and faithful to my wife.

I attend all my meetings.

BTW I've known plenty of people who claim they have a testimony of the book of Mormon who don't live moral lives, however.

I wish I could have a strong testimony from the Holy Ghost but it just never happened no matter how hard I tried. Maybe some people just don't get one.

[bytebear]

Yes that is a big part of it. Also, is the Book of Abraham true? Is the Book of Moses true? Those were also made scripture. And was he really visited by God, Jesus, Peter, James, John, etc.

Isn't this standard anti-Mormon posturing. Don't defend your position but simply change topics? I don't know who you are, but I expect better of you.