Molly Mormon And Peter Priesthood Types.

[Winnie G]

I like wearing dress, but some don’t. It’s not a rule but we are asked to but what really bugs me is the looks given investigators or new members if they show up in slakes.

My friend that just joined has Tattoos on her caves. I worry that some Molly Mormon type will say something one day when see shows up in a skirt.

It is members like that that make us look like Mormon clones.

My big beef with in the church are Molly Mormon and Peter Priesthood types.

You know the Peter Priesthood types who give you that evil look if your children raise the sound barrier during the sacrament.

Any one else agree?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Sep 7 2005, 10:32 PM

I like wearing dress, but some don’t. It’s not a rule but we are asked to but what really bugs me is the looks given investigators or new members if they show up in slakes.

My friend that just joined has Tattoos on her caves. I worry that some Molly Mormon type will say something one day when see shows up in a skirt.

It is members like that that make us look like Mormon clones.

My big beef with in the church are Molly Mormon and Peter Priesthood types.

You know the Peter Priesthood types who give you that evil look if your children raise the sound barrier during the sacrament.

Any one else agree?

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What makes a molly mormon and peter priesthood discusting is that they find fault with others not like themselves.

Isn't that what you are :unsure.dontknow: doing with this post?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Sep 7 2005, 08:32 PM

I like wearing dress, but some don’t. It’s not a rule but we are asked to but what really bugs me is the looks given investigators or new members if they show up in slakes.

My friend that just joined has Tattoos on her caves. I worry that some Molly Mormon type will say something one day when see shows up in a skirt.

It is members like that that make us look like Mormon clones.

My big beef with in the church are Molly Mormon and Peter Priesthood types.

You know the Peter Priesthood types who give you that evil look if your children raise the sound barrier during the sacrament.

Any one else agree?

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I dunno - I kind of like it. It is a statement of humility and solidarity.

You subdue your personal preference and accept group concensus and show that you belong by getting in step. It builds unity. Unity brings strenght.

[tiffybird24]

first Winnie G wasn't passing judgement. she just basically said it was frustrating when people give odd or judgemental looks just b/c they might not be keeping with what the one person believes to be a dress code. just b/c you get frustrated with what someone does doesn't mean that you are passing judgement on them, its simply means they are doing something that really irritates you especially when it give our church a bad name b/c people are so judgemental.

I personally had one of my best friends completely stop going to church b/c of the way people would look at her and make her feel judged b/c of things her family were doing.

there was an incredible quote put out by a general athority, and goodness gracious heavens i wish i had that book mark with me, b/c once again i can't remember his name and i know i will not get the quote word for word. it basically says that people should teach the principles of the gosple and not the rules and standards of the church.

yes there are things that we need to follow as members, but we also need to remember to love everyone and, "judge not lest ye be judged."

[Jason]

Favorite Judgement Story #57:

Last year when I was seperated from my wife, I moved in with my dad for a while. My car at the time was a light-blue Ford Contour (another story altogether).

Anyways, Dad was out of town on the first two weekends I had lived there, so he didn't attend church as usual. Somehow, somebody started the rumor that a "woman" was staying with my dad and that he was sinning somehow!

His bishop comes up to him on the first sunday back to his old ward and asks him point blank if he doesn't have a few things he should talk about. My dad looks at him like he's all queer and says "No." The bishop then asks who the woman is staying with him!

hahahahahaahahahah

Some people just can't wait to spread their filth around town.

[Ray]

If what other people think really matters to you, you should either do whatever you can to make them think better of you or whatever you can to make them think better of what you think, but for heaven’s sake, don’t do anything you think is not right.

[Ray]

See my problem is I don't care what they think, but member can make the lives of other member miserable because they choose to see something a certain way.

The only people who become miserable because of what someone else thinks are people who place too much importance on what other people think, and you can’t do anything to change that except maybe try to teach those people that they shouldn’t place importance on what other people think.

I won't try to change peoples thoughts because i respect people enough to let them develop on their own, i don't mind honest discussion but i won't actively try to change people if i don't think they are in imminent danger.

Not worrying about what other people think unless you think what they think can save you from imminent danger sounds like a good policy, I think.

I seem to see an over emphasis on appearances in the church rather than actually understanding the motive and actions of members and others. Of course this is in my limited experience.

Appearances give an indication of how things are, and there is nothing wrong with using “appearances” to give us a clue about how things are. And if someone wants people to think something other than what they think by looking at appearances, by all means, let them do whatever they can to help other people think better of them or what they think.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 8 2005, 11:28 AM

See my problem is I don't care what they think, but member can make the lives of other member miserable because they choose to see something a certain way.

I won't try to change peoples thoughts because i respect people enough to let them develop on their own, i don't mind honest discussion but i won't actively try to change people if i don't think they are in imminent danger.

I seem to see an over emphasis on appearances in the church rather than actually understanding the motive and actions of members and others.  Of course this is in my limited experience.

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Personally I have had many times where I was miss judged. I have even had people literally stick their nose in the air and turn their head when they had to pass me in the church hallways.

It hurts, but I have grown stronger in my resolve to listen to the Lord and not men on such occassions. How can Christ lift us up if we are so determined never to be let down?

One other thing, the Lord is always on the underdogs side. Whatever people do to you, pray for them and do good for them. Then the Lord can bless both of you.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 8 2005, 12:10 PM

The only people who become miserable because of what someone else thinks are people who place too much importance on what other people think, and you can’t do anything to change that except maybe try to teach those people that they shouldn’t place importance on what other people think.

I agree, however what people think fuels their actions towards others. If someone is basing their action over something they have seen but not understood then it is their duty to understand before they pass judgement. I've heard way to much gossip in wards to show me any enlightnment over others.

If holding up the perfect LDS image and keeping up a perfect appearance harms a person or family it it better to let the family suffer or risk doing something to change things and appear as wrong in the public eye?

And appearances really can be deceiving. I know from experience and I've taught that to more than a few members. I was judged time and time again, and while i didn't really care and did nothing to change their minds but be myself. They learned from watching, and after talking to them when they decided i wasn't a minion of satan, i asked why they decided to judge first and learn second and none could give me a good answer.

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People treat you according to who they think you are, not who you really are. So I believe putting our best foot forward works best for everyone concerned.

It leaves less for the gossips to condemn you and themselves for.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 8 2005, 12:10 PM

The only people who become miserable because of what someone else thinks are people who place too much importance on what other people think, and you can’t do anything to change that except maybe try to teach those people that they shouldn’t place importance on what other people think.

I agree, however what people think fuels their actions towards others. If someone is basing their action over something they have seen but not understood then it is their duty to understand before they pass judgement. I've heard way to much gossip in wards to show me any enlightnment over others.

If holding up the perfect LDS image and keeping up a perfect appearance harms a person or family it it better to let the family suffer or risk doing something to change things and appear as wrong in the public eye?

And appearances really can be deceiving. I know from experience and I've taught that to more than a few members. I was judged time and time again, and while i didn't really care and did nothing to change their minds but be myself. They learned from watching, and after talking to them when they decided i wasn't a minion of satan, i asked why they decided to judge first and learn second and none could give me a good answer.

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I agree very much with your statement that it is our responsibility to wait for understanding before we pass judgement.

It is also up to us to remember that we take upon us the name of Christ when we are baptized and this means to try and emulate his countenance in all aspects of our lives. Now I really can't preach too much on this, seeing as I have probably the farthest to go to be living this principal out of everyone on this board, but the principal is true.

Also, it is appropriate to give council to others regarding being/dressing appropriate for church services. Whether this is quietly mentioning this to the new member or investigator, or mentioning it to someone else (bishop, missionary, fellowshipper) is up to your discernment, but for someone to take offence where none was intended is not good. But to look at someone in a way to say "I disapprove of you" is wrong.

I'm not sure how much this saying applies but its great anyway, so here it is.

"If you let someone stand between you and the Lord, Who is closer?"

The meaning of course is not to let any offence keep you away from the Church.

[Jason]

Originally posted by seamusz@Sep 8 2005, 12:41 PM

I'm not sure how much this saying applies but its great anyway, so here it is.

"If you let someone stand between you and the Lord, Who is closer?"

The meaning of course is not to let any offence keep you away from the Church.

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Although I enjoy witty sayings (and not trying to derail the thread) but why must Mormons assert that God=Church? So many attempt to distance the actions and statements of the Church from God, but then someone says something like what you wrote, and alters that understanding.

How about this: "If you let something (like a Church) stand between you and God, who is closer?"

Hmm....

[Ray]

So in me being selfless and freely giving my time to a friend in need, i was not putting my best foot forward and therefore opened myself up to gossip?

Gossip is when people talk about what they think, and as long as they don’t think anything they don’t have any reason to think, there is nothing wrong with people talking about what they think. And as I said, if you think you can help people to know better about what is going on about you or what you think, then please feel free to share your understanding with those people to help them have something better to think about.

And btw, you are the one who stopped helping your friend, and you did that simply because you were concerned about what other people thought, so in the future I hope you will continue to do what is right even when other people don’t agree with what your are doing. And if I were you, I might also try going the extra mile of trying to help them understand why you are doing what you think is right.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 8 2005, 12:47 PM

Although I enjoy witty sayings (and not trying to derail the thread) but why must Mormons assert that God=Church?  So many attempt to distance the actions and statements of the Church from God, but then someone says something like what you wrote, and alters that understanding. 

How about this: "If you let something (like a Church) stand between you and God, who is closer?" 

Hmm....

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This is a good subject, perhaps worthy of its own thread. But to do a quick response to your question. In the context of why LDS take the stance that God=church, it is quite simply a matter of how we view the Church.

If the Lord is (as we believe) the head of this church, then in order for us to come close to him, we need to go to His house and become as involved as we can in His church. Those who do not do this are distancing themselves away from God.

This is purely on an individual basis, so it doesn't apply for a comparison. In other words I am not saying that Mormons who go to church are closer to God than everyone who doesn't go to church. So, I'm saying that anyone with a relationship with God will become closer through the church. But it isn't justifiable for someone to use "I go to church" as a basis to state that they are closer than one who doesn't. In fact I would say that there is no value in anyone trying to compare their spirituality to anothers.

That saying can come across to be a comparison, but the meaning is not to let another keep you distanced from God... its just meant to invoke thought I guess... maybe its not a very effective saying...

[Ray]

To clear things up i stopped because the members of her ward made her feel like she was doing something horrible by having me there. The wards members were very clear that if i was to continue helping in this way things would become much colder for her.

Sometimes it helps when people explain why they think something is or isn’t right, but regardless, nobody should do what other people want them to do simply because that’s what other people want. So if your friend had felt right enough, or righteous enough, about what she was doing, or allowing you to do, she should have kept doing what she felt was right even if other people did not agree with her.

I still help just not to the extent that i could if the ward members stuck to what was important. This woman is very observant of doctrine and does amazing work for the church, so why not focus on the people who need actual help.

The Relief Society does some wonderful things to help people, and although it might not be what you would do if you were there, or even if it is, your friend is probably getting all of the help she needs. And if you would like the Relief Society sisters to explain their reasoning, or why they didn’t feel right about what you were doing, I’m sure they would be happy to explain it to you or refer you to the bishop who would explain it for them.

[Ray]

I'm not sure how much this saying applies but its great anyway, so here it is.

"If you let someone stand between you and the Lord, Who is closer?"

The meaning of course is not to let any offence keep you away from the Church.

Actually, the meaning is that we should not let anyone stand between us and the Lord, but since the Lord is with His Church, we can also conclude that we should not let anyone stand between us and His Church.

And btw, Satan is also trying to come between us and the Lord, but he definitely is not closer.

[Ray]

Soulsearcher,

You have one way of looking at what happened, and from your point of view your understanding probably makes the most sense, but to me the problem was simply that some sisters (who are members of the Relief Society in the Church) didn’t feel comfortable going into a home where another sister (your friend) had a single man living with her, because they felt that was wrong (for reasons I’m sure they could explain), and when they told her about how they felt, your friend faced the choice of either allowing you to stay there or allowing the sisters to come in and take care of her. And if I were you, I would ask your friend to explain why she made that choice, because it could be that the sisters only helped her to understand that it wasn’t the best thing to do.

And btw, what “sacrifice” are you thinking the sisters should have made in this situation? To put it simply, they didn’t feel comfortable in that situation because they thought it was wrong, so are you suggesting that they should have sacrificed their peace of conscious by going into that home anyway? If so I don’t agree with that logic, because above all we should always do what we feel is right.

[Jason]

Originally posted by seamusz+Sep 8 2005, 01:13 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Sep 8 2005, 12:47 PM

Although I enjoy witty sayings (and not trying to derail the thread) but why must Mormons assert that God=Church?  So many attempt to distance the actions and statements of the Church from God, but then someone says something like what you wrote, and alters that understanding.  

How about this: "If you let something (like a Church) stand between you and God, who is closer?"  

Hmm....

←

This is a good subject, perhaps worthy of its own thread. But to do a quick response to your question. In the context of why LDS take the stance that God=church, it is quite simply a matter of how we view the Church.

If the Lord is (as we believe) the head of this church, then in order for us to come close to him, we need to go to His house and become as involved as we can in His church. Those who do not do this are distancing themselves away from God.

This is purely on an individual basis, so it doesn't apply for a comparison. In other words I am not saying that Mormons who go to church are closer to God than everyone who doesn't go to church. So, I'm saying that anyone with a relationship with God will become closer through the church. But it isn't justifiable for someone to use "I go to church" as a basis to state that they are closer than one who doesn't. In fact I would say that there is no value in anyone trying to compare their spirituality to anothers.

That saying can come across to be a comparison, but the meaning is not to let another keep you distanced from God... its just meant to invoke thought I guess... maybe its not a very effective saying...

←

After that mental exercise (which must have left you as exhausted in writing as it did me in reading) and Ray's little response, I think we can conclude that it's not a very good saying after all.

Back to the drafting board....

[seamusz]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 8 2005, 02:24 PM

After that mental exercise (which must have left you as exhausted in writing as it did me in reading) and Ray's little response, I think we can conclude that it's not a very good saying after all. 

Back to the drafting board....

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You shouldve seen the size of the vein in the middle of my forehead.... HUGE!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 8 2005, 01:18 PM

I expected one of them to give up three straight days to do what i was willing to do.  I was there because no member was able to do it.  If she could have got a member i know things would have been different.  I would not have had to stay, and this would have been avoided, but they were unable to give the aid that was needed.

I wasn't living there before or after this, i was staying for the duration of the illness to take care of the children keep the house up and provide meals and such.(3 days) The sisters were not willing to give what this woman needed at the time.  If one of them could have gone and stayed for the three days and done what needed to be done i would not have been there except to visit a sick friend and then gone home after a short visit.

I'm thinking there you are not quite understanding the situation.

←

You're right, I didn't completely understand the situation until you explained it in so much detail as you have just done here, and it's quite possible that the Relief Society sisters didn't totally understand it either. And regardless, as I said, you and your friend should have done what each one of you thought was the right thing to do, as long as you were both agreeable.

The main point is that each of us should always do what we think is the right thing to do, and if we find out later that what we think or thought was not the right thing to do, we should change our behavior or our thoughts accordingly.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 8 2005, 09:24 AM

As a non member who was constantly around members I've seen a bit of this. I have a few tattoos an have dyed my hair some odd colors, but in the end i really didn't get to much in the way of comments and very few odd looks.  Most of the members i met seemed to get the point that there really is very little outward appearances can really tell you.

Now the things that did get me comments were the silliest of things.  A friend of mine is a member and a single mother of three by divorce.  She fell ill for a few days and was in a new ward and didn't quite know people so well and she needed desperate help with her kids for a few days.  Being she was in another city i said i would come and help of course, but that i would need a place to stay.  Well she thought it over( had to think over an offer of a FREE NANNY AND HOUSE KEEPER FOR AS LONG AS SHE NEEDED lol) and was worried about members perceptions of a male non member staying in her home.  Well i was there for about three days, and ran into a few members and boy was it funny.  Hushed tones and conversations in the corner, with the Molly's from the relief society pointing at me.  We both got a few comments, and now i won't offer to help her like that again so she has an easier time of it.  Is it really fair that just because a few people thought it was really their place to make judgments that someone in need lost the aid of someone willing to give it with out question.

I find that I can get on with most members and even like a great deal of them, but it's the Molly mormons and Peter priesthoods that seem to turn up their noses when they find out I'm a non member.  Although i think it's so funny every time I'm around members they need to be told I'm a non member cause i fit in so well. LOL

(not sure if it's quite on topic, but i thought it might be relevant)

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You have to consider the sources of the gossip. Our ward gossips are very well known. Their lives are anything but perfect and so they seek out and use anything they can to make other's lives seem as miserable as their own.

I don't think they are necessarily molly mormons or peter priesthoods. And you can bet God is watching and making an accounting of it all.

What you give out, you get. What you measure out will be met to you again. What goes around comes around.

Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord. AMEN~~

[daizymae]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 8 2005, 02:18 PM

I expected one of them to give up three straight days to do what i was willing to do.  I was there because no member was able to do it.  If she could have got a member i know things would have been different.  I would not have had to stay, and this would have been avoided, but they were unable to give the aid that was needed.

Three days is a lot for someone to give up. I'm sure it was a sacrifice for you as well. I agree that the RS sisters should have stepped up and helped as much as they could, particularly for a single sister....but if I think about what I could offer in such a situation, it wouldn't be three days. I have a family to take care of as well....who would take my place while I was gone to help and my husband was at work? I would have certainly offered to take a meal in or spend a couple of hours helping with housework, or babysitting her children so she could get some rest....but I'm sure there weren't many people in the ward who were able to help your friend in the way you were.

The fact that she was new in the ward puts a different twist on it. The members may not have been as aware of her situation because they didn't really know her. And the fact that she was new and didn't get the help from the ward she needed probably left a bad taste in her mouth for her new ward. It's an unfortunate situation that didn't have the best of outcomes. Your friend is lucky to have someone like you who was able to come and help her in her time of need.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 8 2005, 02:59 PM

We did what was needed and right and both agree the while we are not sure it is right it is right in the eyes of the church that i don't do this again.  And the sisters knew cause the ones who came to visit were the ones that were asked directly for help.  My presence and purpose was explained and it was made clear i was a very good friend of the family and was only staying because there was no other help available.

My point is still that the sisters were wrong in using pressure and threats.  They knew the score, they knew that they had not been able to meet the demand.  They could have spoken up and then made a suggestion.  Instead they were mean and cruel.  I personally don't believe in the amount of blind devotion i see to this faith, but when people give it they should be comforted by the knowledge that they will be met by the same devotion in them.

I'm not against the church in general, but as in any faith there are people who miss the point, and in this case it was these women, is it so hard to admit they could be wrong as well and maybe should have tried a better tactic than fear and harassment.

Oh and thanks for the intelligent debate Ray, i do appreciate it, and your patience.

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You will find the same kind of people in other churches. At least we did down in Arizona when we lived across the street from to Christian ladies. They were so competitive and gossipy it stunk.

They would purposely go out of their way to make people feel bad about themselves or their yards or their kids.

So I don't find it fair at all to solely attach this behavior to the mormons. There are good people in every walk of life and there are bad people in every walk of life.

Even God had a third of his kingdom that wasn't worth the powder it took to blow them to hell.

[Winnie G]

I’m not talking about the occasional look and I too think children should be removed if they misbehave.

I was always the brunt of glares from these PP and Molly types.

Now that I have remarried those looks stopped right away.

14 years ago I was two things, divorced and raising four children on my own. I became a threat.

I was also a working mother. 14 hours a day. Shame on me for leaving my oldest son to care for his siblings wile I worked.

Once after my oldest son was attacked by another young man over who was to sit were for passing sacrament (12 year olds) this was not a isolated incident this happened a lot enough the boys no supervision. He chocked my son and ripped his tie off, these ones in style back then that zipped up. It was destroyed and my sons face was clawed and bleeding his white shirt ruined, our home teacher pulled this young man off my son.

It was asked that my sons tie be replaced. I was told point blank to replace it myself.

I told him I did not have the money to replace the tie, he said there not that much. I said they are if you work three jobs to support your family and I was the only one doing it.

My son did not pass the sacrament till I could replace his white shirt and tie. He was excluded.

And people wonder why he is inactive. His childhood is filled with painful stories of being the kid with no father to take him to Priesthood functions.

Also sisters watched me like a hawk when I was talking to their husbands.

Even my home teachers that really bugged my dear friend whose husband was one of my home teachers.

If I came wearing pants, did they not think I might be on my way to work after church?

My children were excluded from events even birthday party’s and ward family swimming.

You see I did not always have a PH to escort my three sons in to locker rooms and so on.

It was not till a sister whose husband died speaking up in RS about how much things had changed in her life with in the church community since her husband died she was my age, that she was now a outsider naming off exactly what I had experienced. When I started to sob nodding my head, they all know and were ashamed.

That’s when I realized it was not just me as a divorced sister but just being single.

The selfish behavior of sisters can go along way.

From their husbands home teaching or lack of it due to none support of their wives.

Just try to get a blessing when you really need one? How would you feel if your home teachers spouse told you “her husband was not available” I never even got passed the wifes. You should not have to call around to find someone spouse to give a blessing to use their husbands priesthood.

Once I was in a real jam and was desperate, I called the home of the bishop and his sister in-law answered the phone, she said he was busy with family and would give him a message. This was one of those sisters who were too good to talk to me let alone care weather she was standing between me and the bishop.

The next Sunday he found me crying out side his office. He was never given the message and flipped when he heard my story. I lost a child.

Judgment is just that.

[daizymae]

I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience Winnie and that you are still experiencing the effects of it today with your inactive son.

I hope you realize, though, that this isn't always the case. I grew up in a single-parent home. I do remember the looks we got and the uncomfortable feeling in the air the first time we attended church without my father and the entire ward knew that my parents had separated. It was awkward. It took time for people to get comfortable with the idea. Ours was not a ward with many divorced families (in fact, I can't think of a single one right now). But, as people began to realize that we were the same good people, just with some family issues, those awkward moments went away. We moved to a new ward when I was 16 and never once in that ward did we ever feel judged because we didn't have a father sitting with us at church. They took us in with open arms and helped fill the gap that was present because we had no priesthood holder in our home.

The people in that ward are the people we all need to strive to be.

[Winnie G]

Once I remarried it was like the past never happened. That was almost 14 years ago. We to have moved since then. Out of four children one is still very inactive the other is on again off again and one is in collage and comes but I wonder how much of his testimony is really his, Do you get what I mean?

My daughter is married and attends offend then not.