Christian thought

[bytor2112]

The Christ and Lord that I know loves me and I have faith that I will be with my loved ones after I die...I don't have to do anything...Christ already died for ME.

This statement from another thread seems to define a lot of Christian beliefs. I have met many that seek to "save" you by telling you that Christ died for your sins and all you have to do is believe.

I also believe that Christ died for me.......but that doesn't even begin to explain what Christ did for each of us. It seems like the suffering at Gethsemane, that could ONLY be endured by God, is either overlooked, misunderstood or simply ignored. The true meaning, the details of the Gospel plan of Salvation that encompass the Creation, the Fall and the Atonement seem to be completely distorted without modern revelation and the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.

How thankful I am for these revealed truths and for the Holy Ghost that testifies of these Eternal verities. Families can and are meant to be together forever! Unlike the statement above, I understand that there are requirements to receive these great blessings.....but what small requirements in light of such infinite blessings.

[prisonchaplain]

For Protestants, salvation is like a shower. You don't have to do anything to get ready for the shower. You come, just as you are, without covering...naked, totally exposed, ready to be cleansed. Likewise, we come to Jesus just as we are, without one plea, but that His blood was shed for me. Dare I think anything in my life might have impressed him, might have moved him to be even slightly impressed, then I miss the point.

But, what happens after the shower? We're clean and we live for him, now and forever more. We grow in His holiness, righteousness, and we become proficient harvesters. I suppose you could say that we are saved for the work, rather than working for the salvation.

If God really intended that eternal families would be the normal order for his children, then, despite the much reputed miracle of a church that grew to 13 million in 150 short years, I have to wonder why God would not have more powerfully revealed such a truth to the rest of the 2.2+ billion Christians in the world. Frankly, it's an attractive belief, but I'm not sure why it's reserved only for the few most deserving.

[bytor2112]

That's an interesting thought PC. The answer lies in understanding our life before we entered into mortality......the easiest answer is that ALL will have the opportunity to hear Eternal truths and accept them and receive these blessings. That is why we have Temples....so that all may have the opportunity. The work will continue during the Millenial reign of Christ.

[Dravin]

Frankly, it's an attractive belief, but I'm not sure why it's reserved only for the few most deserving.

From the LDS perspective it isn't reserved, that information is vigorously being shared, people just aren't accepting it. As to why it was revealed to a man from New York in the 1800s instead of say the Pope in 1200s, well that comes back to beliefs about the apostasy. Why then and not before, or why not accompanied by angelic choirs applies to pretty much everything the LDS Church teaches.

Of course you can also apply that to Christianity in general, why the Good News to a small group of Jews ~ 30AD? Why not more powerfully to the other (depending on who you ask) 170 million people in the world?

[Maxel]

If God really intended that eternal families would be the normal order for his children, then, despite the much reputed miracle of a church that grew to 13 million in 150 short years, I have to wonder why God would not have more powerfully revealed such a truth to the rest of the 2.2+ billion Christians in the world. Frankly, it's an attractive belief, but I'm not sure why it's reserved only for the few most deserving.

How long did it take for Christianity to become established after Christ's death? I'm sure we can both agree that Christ's Christianity had all the essential ingredients to it- yet it suffered greatly before gaining popularity (and then [according to our beliefs] it had to be a tainted, government-backed religion with no more apostles or prophets to guide it).

[prisonchaplain]

True enough Bytor. But, even a significant # of LDS will likely not enter the Celestial Kingdom, baring something really radical in the afterlife. And though some would see room for non-LDS of particular merit to enter it, the reality is that unless there are overwhelming super majority conversions in the afterlife, the # of eternal families will be relatively small indeed.

[prisonchaplain]

Max, Protestant Christian understanding openly admits that most (or at least a majority) of the world's people will not make heaven. The way is narrow and hard. The road to destruction is wide and easy. It's our understanding of God's word, and yes it's hard.

BUT...the LDS understanding of eternal families, though taught as something for most, ends up being reserved for a small minority of Jesus' followers. So, it's not a matter of heaven and hell, but of what happens AMONGST God's people. My question is not meant to discredit the teaching so much as it is a quest for elaboration. How do eternal families end of working, if only a relatively small # in the heavenly kingdoms will enjoy them?

[Maxel]

BUT...the LDS understanding of eternal families, though taught as something for most, ends up being reserved for a small minority of Jesus' followers. So, it's not a matter of heaven and hell, but of what happens AMONGST God's people. My question is not meant to discredit the teaching so much as it is a quest for elaboration. How do eternal families end of working, if only a relatively small # in the heavenly kingdoms will enjoy them?

I think it has to do with the power of the Priesthood. For example, I can trace my Aaronic Priesthood 'lineage' back to Jesus Christ (however, I think it's Melchezidek Priesthood 'lineage' that will matter more). I think the sealing power of the Priesthood creates a 'family within a family'- worthy fathers sealing sons to themselves (and being sealed to them), and father and son bringing their wives.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Most people in this world don't want eternal families. They say that in so many ways... premarital sex, extramarital affairs, trying to redefine marriage, avoiding marriage until they have their career established or other earthly goals come before families. And they try to limit the number of children they have. There are many that marry and remarry breaking the family unit into several pieces, ...his children and her children etc.

God will not give you something you aren't even striving for in this life, or have a desire for. I agree that we are all saved by Christ's sacrifice. We are all saved from this corrupted existence without doing anything. But, not all of us will receive Eternal Life.

As an example ... Imagine if your parents sent you to Medical School when you were 10 years old. That would be a miserable and useless experience for most 10 year olds. Also, most 10 year olds wouldn't see the value of such an opportunity, they would ask, why did you do that to me? God will not give everyone Eternal families for the same reason.

Also, to answer your question more specifically ... I think there will be many holes in the family of those that accept the gospel and ordinances, it may skip several generations but this is why we are commanded to do our genealogy, eventually back to Adam. When it is all figured out, we are all one big family, the family of Adam. So, the numbers aren't so small when you look at it that way.

[Guest]

Max, Protestant Christian understanding openly admits that most (or at least a majority) of the world's people will not make heaven. The way is narrow and hard. The road to destruction is wide and easy. It's our understanding of God's word, and yes it's hard.

BUT...the LDS understanding of eternal families, though taught as something for most, ends up being reserved for a small minority of Jesus' followers. So, it's not a matter of heaven and hell, but of what happens AMONGST God's people. My question is not meant to discredit the teaching so much as it is a quest for elaboration. How do eternal families end of working, if only a relatively small # in the heavenly kingdoms will enjoy them?

Hi PC, I don't understand what you mean by, "reserved for a small minority of Jesus' followers".

If I understand this correctly, you are saying that because there is only a few active LDS members as opposed to the entire world (13 million or so right now), that it is only a small minority that attain eternal family? If you look at it this way, then yes, it is a small minority. But, we don't look at it this way...

But then, we both agree that those who died before Christ's mission have the opportunity for salvation, right? So, the shower that you speak of... is that not available to them as well? At the same time, we both agree that those who died before Christ's mission who are murderers and such will not likely gain entrance to celestial glory, right? Of course, we are not the judge of this and Christ might see fit for them to enter heaven just like the criminal hung on the cross beside him who showed great faith. So, with all these in my mind, I don't understand the concept of "saved for the work".

But then, I'm sure this has been hashed and re-hashed on this forum, so I don't think it needs to be re-hashed again... I'll go find the time to read up on all those threads to open up my understanding of what that means.

Edited September 28, 2009 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

Hi PC, I don't understand what you mean by, "reserved for a small minority of Jesus' followers".

If I understand this correctly, you are saying that because there is only a few active LDS members as opposed to the entire world (13 million or so right now), that it is only a small minority that attain eternal family?

But catch this...not only is it a small minority of the world's population--but it's a small portion of the Christian population. That's what strikes me...that so many who at least are in relationship with God's Son--well, and with the Father, of course--would yet miss out on something that Father seems to have intended for most all of us.

But then, we both agree that those who died before Christ's mission have the opportunity for salvation, right? So, the shower that you speak of... is that not available to them as well?

If I'm not mistaken, Hebrews 11 does speak of those who would be redeemed for their faith in the Messiah who had not yet come. It is we Christians who have been grafted into the line of Abraham, not the Jews who've been grafted into our line.

At the same time, we both agree that those who died before Christ's mission who are murderers and such will not likely gain entrance to celestial glory, right? Of course, we are not the judge of this and Christ might see fit for them to enter heaven just like the criminal hung on the cross beside him who showed great faith. So, with all these in my mind, I don't understand the concept of "saved for the work".

Now you've lost me. "Saved for the work" simply means God saved me, and now I am empowered to serve Him. It is the cleansing of my sins, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit that enable me to live holy and do righteous.

[Dr T]

"Saved for the work" simply means God saved me, and now I am empowered to serve Him. It is the cleansing of my sins, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit that enable me to live holy and do righteous.

That's it PC! All praises to God :)

[Islander]

Max, Protestant Christian understanding openly admits that most (or at least a majority) of the world's people will not make heaven. The way is narrow and hard. The road to destruction is wide and easy. It's our understanding of God's word, and yes it's hard.

BUT...the LDS understanding of eternal families, though taught as something for most, ends up being reserved for a small minority of Jesus' followers. So, it's not a matter of heaven and hell, but of what happens AMONGST God's people. My question is not meant to discredit the teaching so much as it is a quest for elaboration. How do eternal families end of working, if only a relatively small # in the heavenly kingdoms will enjoy them?

True, the Savior said it beter:

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mat 7:14

The facts speak for themselves. Over the last 5000 years, Israel had access to every blessing and covdenant that the Lord freely offered them when in righteousness. They eventualy rejected the Lord and they were cast out into captivity, lost to history and eventually purged like no other nation in the history of mankind. They rejected and killed the prophets and were led to and from because of rebellion.

It does not matter what the Lord reveals or in what time frame of history, there always a tiny minority that hearken to His counsel and commandment. The rest always defy and reject the revelation.

he .

[Moksha]

PrisonChaplain, I like to shave and brush my teeth in the shower. Would those actions be considered a shower ordinance and therefore unnecessary? I like to do those things anyway. What about the usage of soap in this Protestant shower?

[bytor2112]

Now you've lost me. "Saved for the work" simply means God saved me, and now I am empowered to serve Him. It is the cleansing of my sins, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit that enable me to live holy and do righteous.

The cleansing of sins comes through Christ's atonement. As far as living Holy and doing righteous.......were you not able to live Holy before you found Christ? Could you not have refrained from entering into sin?

Obviously we all sin. But we still have the freedom to choose and our choices ultimately determine if we are living Holy and doing righteous. I know non-Christians and Atheists that live a righteous and Holy life, every bit as much as any devout Christian.

Edited September 28, 2009 by bytor2112

[Misshalfway]

I am grateful for repentance. I was thinking that I need lots of showers. :) I guess I like to know that I play some role in my destiny by my choices and that God not only uses me for the work but is interested in the who and what I can become.

I also like knowing that God is in the business of changing people over time. I like knowing that I can change and improve and increase in certain capacities. I like the words of Jacob too so that I remember where this power comes from. Its comforting because I don't have to be perfect.....and yet I don't have to be limited or imprisoned by the flesh or my personality or my tendancies either. Thru Christ I can overcome sin and earthlife, and all the crap that happens to wound me too.

[Guest]

But catch this...not only is it a small minority of the world's population--but it's a small portion of the Christian population. That's what strikes me...that so many who at least are in relationship with God's Son--well, and with the Father, of course--would yet miss out on something that Father seems to have intended for most all of us.

If you discount that you can become Christian in the after-life, then yes, you are correct. And like I said, we don't believe this is the case. So, no, I don't believe it is as small a minority as you imply.

If I'm not mistaken, Hebrews 11 does speak of those who would be redeemed for their faith in the Messiah who had not yet come. It is we Christians who have been grafted into the line of Abraham, not the Jews who've been grafted into our line.

What does this mean, PC? How does this go back to the "saved" part?

Now you've lost me. "Saved for the work" simply means God saved me, and now I am empowered to serve Him. It is the cleansing of my sins, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit that enable me to live holy and do righteous.

Oh, okay, so when you say "saved" it is not the same as "saved for the work". I misunderstood that. Okay, so you're saying that those who died before Christ's birth still has the opportunity to be "saved" even if they are not "saved for the work"? If that's the case, then there has to be a qualification for them to be "saved" other than Christ's atonement, because I don't think all of them are automagically saved. So, if that's the case, I still don't understand how you can be saved without works...

Sorry, I'm far from being a scriptorian, and has a limited understanding of evangelical christian beliefs.

Edited September 28, 2009 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

The cleansing of sins comes through Christ's atonement. As far as living Holy and doing righteous.......were you not able to live Holy before you found Christ? Could you not have refrained from entering into sin?

Obviously we all sin. But we still have the freedom to choose and our choices ultimately determine if we are living Holy and doing righteous. I know non-Christians and Atheists that live a righteous and Holy life, every bit as much as any devout Christian.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...there is none righteous, no not one...works that are as filthy rags, etc. If we present our faithless, self-righteous works and holiness to God, in a spirit of rebellion and self-justification, we will simply fail.

[prisonchaplain]

What does this mean, PC? How does this go back to the "saved" part?

Hebrews 11 is known as the faith chapter. It lists numerous pre-Christian believers, who demonstrated their faith in God, and were counted righteous by Him. The fact that Jesus had not yet arrived did not harm their walk with God. Their faith was looking forward, ours in the rear-view mirror.

Oh, okay, so when you say "saved" it is not the same as "saved for the work". I misunderstood that. Okay, so you're saying that those who died before Christ's birth still has the opportunity to be "saved" even if they are not "saved for the work"?

You may have over read that. I simply meant that works of righteousness and holy living are the product of salvation. And yes, Old Testament believers in God did see such product come out of their faith in God and in the coming Messiah.

If that's the case, then there has to be a qualification for them to be "saved" other than Christ's atonement, because I don't think all of them are automagically saved. So, if that's the case, I still don't understand how you can be saved without works...

Hebrews 11 makes it clear--they were saved by their faith in God, and humanity could see that faith by the good works they produced. Abraham is the key example. God knew Abraham would give up his son--but until he lifted the knife, we could not learn from his example. He had the faith, and it allowed him to do the work.

[bytor2112]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...there is none righteous, no not one...works that are as filthy rags, etc. If we present our faithless, self-righteous works and holiness to God, in a spirit of rebellion and self-justification, we will simply fail.

I know the scriptures....but your earlier comments seem to contradict this, no? My point was simply that our thoughts and deeds do indeed determine if we are striving to live a Christ like life. There is no salvation without Christ, BUT, others that have not heard the Good News, live by the Light of Christ given to all men...whether they know it or not.

[prisonchaplain]

I know the scriptures....but your earlier comments seem to contradict this, no? My point was simply that our thoughts and deeds do indeed determine if we are striving to live a Christ like life. There is no salvation without Christ, BUT, others that have not heard the Good News, live by the Light of Christ given to all men...whether they know it or not.

Two concerns: 1. Our thoughts and deeds REFLECT our striving--they do not determine our salvation. 2. While I do believe that some, through "general revelation" (the testimony of God found in nature and the general order of the world) might find redemption, I'd categorize my belief as an opinion. Scripture clearly indicates that such is enough to condemn souls who've never heard, so perhaps it's also enough for some to be found faithful. On the other hand, as a believer my uncertainty on this matter drives me to more fervent evangelism. Jesus clearly wanted us to dispel ignorance through rigorous witness and discipleship.

[bytor2112]

Two concerns: 1. Our thoughts and deeds REFLECT our striving--they do not determine our salvation. 2. While I do believe that some, through "general revelation" (the testimony of God found in nature and the general order of the world) might find redemption, I'd categorize my belief as an opinion. Scripture clearly indicates that such is enough to condemn souls who've never heard, so perhaps it's also enough for some to be found faithful. On the other hand, as a believer my uncertainty on this matter drives me to more fervent evangelism. Jesus clearly wanted us to dispel ignorance through rigorous witness and discipleship.

Reflect it is.:) So, what of those who never have and never will hear about Christ or those who died before Christ? As a LDS, we believe that they will hear the Gospel in the Spirit world and have the same opportunity to accept the Gospel.

[prisonchaplain]

Reflect it is.:) So, what of those who never have and never will hear about Christ or those who died before Christ? As a LDS, we believe that they will hear the Gospel in the Spirit world and have the same opportunity to accept the Gospel.

I simply believe God is just. We'd better evangelize with gusto, so I would not assume they'll be okay. It's surely easier to make an informed choice, than one based on vague physical testimony. On the other hand, my comfort to those with ancestors, or even loved ones in this category is that the God who created the universe is just, and will only do what is right and good. Come the day of judgement there'll be no objections or second-guessing.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Prisonchaplain, please explain your definition of "salvation" specifically. I think those of us that have had LDS instruction without much exposure to other teachings think of that word differently but I'm not sure. What is "salvation" for you? Thanks.

[prisonchaplain]

Seminary...salvation for evangelicals means our sins are forgiven and we are heaven-bound. Recall that for us there is only heaven and hell. While there may be degrees of reward in heaven, it's all still one kingdom. Salvation is a beginning, not the end.

When LDS speak of salvation, my impression is that they combine both evangelical salvation (conversion) AND progressive sanctification (growing in holiness/righteousness and enduring to the end). So, our salvation seems presumptious, because we're not at the end yet. Our Bible tells us we can know we are saved, so we take it to me conversion, basically.