How to earn salvation by works.

[Traveler]

There is a story about Bush Gardens in Florida – if I remember the story right. A visitor was so impressed they went to the owner and said, “You and G-d have made a wonderful garden.” To which the owner replied, “Yes, but you should have seen it when G-d had it to himself.

With this in mind I would like to recall the parable of the sower (Matt 13:3-18 and Mark 4:3-14). Jesus makes a remarkable analogy to farming. So let us begin:

Does a farmer earn his harvest? This is an interesting question. Without the sun and various cosmic elements to protect us from bad elements of the sun, corps would never grow on earth. Without the rain and many things provided by G-d a farmer would never have crops. So are the crops a free gift from G-d or must a farmer earn his harvest? The truth is both. Because G-d provides his blessings freely to all – what then is the difference between the farmer with a harvest and his neighbor with nothing?

According to the parable of the sower there are some that cultivate their ground, take away the rocks, chase away the birds and remove the weeds. For them the freely given seed to all will grow and give them a harvest. But to those that do not the works of preparing for the seed the free gift is of no use.

And so it is that man in part earns his salvation in the same way a farmer earns his harvest. If man does not earn his part then like the free gift of seed, sun and rain without the toil and works of cultivating and care the harvest of G-d’s salvation is lost to the idle man without works. What are the works of salvation that man must prepare themselves by doing in order to receive the free gift to all from G-d? I purport to list some but not all:

1. The works of believing in G-d. (Titus 1:16)

2. The works of faith in Jesus Christ. (Gal 2:16)

3. The works of accepting Jesus. (Gal 2:16)

4. Works of worship and service to G-d. (Luke 4:8)

5. The works or forgiveness. (Luke 6:37)

6. The works of charity. (1Cor 13 – see especially verse 13)

7. The works of prayer. (Luke 21:36)

8. The works of love towards you fellow men. (1John 4:12)

9. The works of asking, seeking and knocking (Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9)

When the Apostle Paul taught the good news of the gospel of Christ to the gentiles there was in the society a heresy of doctrine of “good works”. In this heresy it was believe and taught by Pagans that when a man died that they would come to the gates of heaven where they would encounter the scales of Mot. Upon these scales the good works were placed on the right side of the balance and their evil works on the left side. If the scales tipped to the right then they were admitted into heaven. In the heresy of this doctrine it was believed that if one had done evil or planed to do evil that they could counter such works with “extra” good works. So that if a man had been faithful to their wife for a whole year they had earned a night of adultery that at the judgment would be “redeemed” by their good works. Paul taught that this Hellenist doctrine was heresy and that without the atonement and sacrifice of Christ man’s good works would be useless. Like the farmer that toiled with sun and rain there would be no hope of harvest. And so it is today that this ancient heresy had come back to us today but with a twist that man cannot invest and it is not the will of G-d that man invest in salvation.

Salvation from G-d comes to man who earn salvation through works. For as the sun shines and the rains fall for all as a free gift - The plentiful harvest of salvation does not come to all but only to those who like the farmer’s works of cultivation and caring for the seed that by their works cultivate the seed and by their works worship G-d to receive a harvest of salvation.

Some may pervert the truth and say it is G-d’s works only – but if such were true there would be no reward for those that worship G-d – and to deny such works is to deny G-d. (1John 2:4)

The Traveler

Edited September 30, 2009 by pam
sower instead of sewer

[pam]

With this in mind I would like to recall the parable of the sewer

Do you mean parable of the sower? Puts an entirely different meaning mentioning sewer.

[Traveler]

Do you mean parable of the sower? Puts an entirely different meaning mentioning sewer.

yes

[will227457]

is there a question here of did you just want to ponticifate?

by the way I do agree with what you wrote....

[hordak]

There is a story about Bush Gardens in Florida – if I remember the story right. A visitor was so impressed they went to the owner and said, “You and G-d have made a wonderful garden.” To which the owner replied, “Yes, but you should have seen it when G-d had it to himself.t

The Traveler

Are you are aware that Bush Gardens is not actually a garden? It is an amusement park owned by a corporation. Anheuser-Busch to be exact.

I like the rest of the post and the idea behind it but as to the beginning. I think you got handed a faith promoting rumor .

It is a beautiful though.

[Traveler]

is there a question here of did you just want to ponticifate?

by the way I do agree with what you wrote....

What is not always understood by many Christians are works that are required for salvation. For example many do not understand that believing in G-d is a work of the righteous that is necessary. Accepting G-d is a work of the righteous – along with prayer, faith and other works of true believers.

When we speak of salvation we need to understand that it is the will of G-d that the possibility man chooses G-d or mammon is accomplished or done through works. Even the acknowledgement of G-d’s grace is a work of the repentant disciple. Just as salvation cannot be separated from G-d loving grace neither can the works required of man.

But the main point surrounds the concept of earning or being worthy of salvation. In the understanding of truth and accepting Christ and the proper use of his name (calling one’s self Christian) is the doctrine of being whole or complete (sometimes referred to in scripture as “perfect”). Only by G-d’s grace and our actions or works of faith and acceptance are we made whole. Though this seems straight forward, some pretending to be Christian, have come among the flock with intention to destroy covenants of salvation.

By their works (fruits) shall you know them -- both sheep of the flock of G-d and the wolves that are not of his flock.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think the reason 'salvation' is different for LDS from other, even Christian, religions is that LDS believe the end of this life is just the beginning of your real life - the afterlife. Salvation, in other words, is not the end.

I kind of think of it like getting a degree in college. You can't get it on your own, without the help of a system, but the degree itself is yours, if you follow the instructions given to you and perform well. But after you get the degree, so what? That, to me, is where the discussion stops for most. Salvation is not the end. But, if you believe that what you do here determines your purpose after this life, then you are motivated to do well, to do good works. Just like performing well in college, is not to just get a degree (salvation so to speak), but to prepare oneself for the real world, the work one has after obtaining a degree. The 'harvest' varies even for people with the same degree.

If one believes heaven is a place of rest then it would fit well to believe all one has to do in this world is just believe in Christ and have faith. (by the way, Heaven is a place of rest from the evils of this world, but it is not a place of rest in terms of sitting around with nothing to do) But, if one's view of the afterlife is one of continuing to do God-like work, then here she will work, work, work so she will be best prepared to be like Him. The God I believe in has many works, too many to count, and He never stops (even His day of rest has purpose), His works are without end. If you don't like that idea, then keep telling yourself works are not important and you will have the brand of salvation you've always wanted. A salvation of blissful lack of, or limited purpose.

[Justice]

Christ said His followers are the light of the world. He says "good works" are the light that they shine.

Matthew 5:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Yes, the works don't earn the soil, seed, or sunlight, but they do allow those things to bring fruit.

[prisonchaplain]

Works are an essential fruit of salvation...but salvation is a mercy of God, a grace...not something any work of righteousness can bring. We cannot impress God with our goodness...but if we'll humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord, He will lift us up. If we'll lose our lives to him, we'll gain them. BUT, if we try to keep our lives, and appease him by mere good deeds, apart from faith, we'll fail miserably.

Which came first the salvation or the works? Evangelicals say it's the salvation. So, in the Garden story, once you believe in the potential of the ground and seeds, you've earned dominion over the Garden. Now, how much will you make of it? That's where the working comes in.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Prisonchaplain,

Just want to clarify another point that you may not realize about LDS beliefs. We believe Gods laws are immovable. They do not change. For every law there are specific punishments and rewards and as such there is no possible way to "impress" God. So believing this way, it is impossible to 'impress' God. Even with that though, God is the only one who fully understands our individual circumstances and what is in our hearts, so that is why He is the only one who can judge. And knowing all of that, there are specific blessings and consequences that come from our actions.

I think (maybe this is just my belief) that we believe we started to work towards our Eternal Life goals even before we came to this world ... so I guess we believe that works comes before salvation in that sense.

I am curious why you said works are an "essential fruit of salvation..."? essential to what? I'm not sure if you meant to use the word 'essential'. Because, to me, essential means you can't do without it. And yet on the other hand you seem to be saying that you can do without it.

Again, I appreciate our conversation. thanks.

[Traveler]

Works are an essential fruit of salvation...but salvation is a mercy of God, a grace...not something any work of righteousness can bring. We cannot impress God with our goodness...but if we'll humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord, He will lift us up. If we'll lose our lives to him, we'll gain them. BUT, if we try to keep our lives, and appease him by mere good deeds, apart from faith, we'll fail miserably.

Which came first the salvation or the works? Evangelicals say it's the salvation. So, in the Garden story, once you believe in the potential of the ground and seeds, you've earned dominion over the Garden. Now, how much will you make of it? That's where the working comes in.

I am sorry but I do not understand - when you say we cannot impress G-d with our goodness then you contradict that implying that we can impress G-d with works of being humble, works where we lose our lives to him and deeds of faith. These are things we do.

The point is that - what G-d does he does for everyone. The differencs is in the works of the individual. Therefore, I do not understand why Evangelicals will not recognize that such things at the individual level are in deed necessary.

The Traveler

[pam]

I think your username lies. I don't believe you snooze through seminary. haha

[prisonchaplain]

I am curious why you said works are an "essential fruit of salvation..."? essential to what? I'm not sure if you meant to use the word 'essential'. Because, to me, essential means you can't do without it. And yet on the other hand you seem to be saying that you can do without it.

Again, I appreciate our conversation. thanks.

There are two verses that come to mind. The first, I've quoted...it's by grace we are saved, through faith, not by works, so no one can boast. The second is an LDS favorite, "Faith without works is dead."

You can't earn conversion, you can only receive God's mercy. On the other hand, if you really truly receive that grace, good works are an inevitable result. So, if there's no life change, at some point we gotta realize that salvation never took--the conversion was not sincere.

Edited October 1, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Maxel]

I like C.S. Lewis' description of the interplay between faith and works:

"Arguing about which is more important- faith or works- is like arguing about which blade on a pair of scissors is more important."

[prisonchaplain]

I am sorry but I do not understand - when you say we cannot impress G-d with our goodness then you contradict that implying that we can impress G-d with works of being humble, works where we lose our lives to him and deeds of faith. These are things we do.

The point is that - what G-d does he does for everyone. The differencs is in the works of the individual. Therefore, I do not understand why Evangelicals will not recognize that such things at the individual level are in deed necessary.

The Traveler

Traveler, you would make actions like receiving a gift, accepting a mercy, recognizing a sin...you'd define these as works? This reminds me of the times I hear, "Chaplain, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not Jewish or Muslim. But that Jewish tray looks so good to me. Since I'm being honest, can I have the tray?"

Those no merit in that. There's no kudos for repentance, for humility in the face of an obvious need to be humble. Humble sinners are humble because they are sinners. There's no glory for that.

The fact that some look to God directly and spurn his love, does not mean that those of us who embrace him instead have done anything particularly praiseworthy. Angels rejoice, yes...but at our salvation, not our righteous labor. It's not by works of righteousness that I have done, but according to his mercy he has saved us. Ephesians 2:8-9 do not lie...we have nothing to boast about, and everything to be grateful for.

[Traveler]

Traveler, you would make actions like receiving a gift, accepting a mercy, recognizing a sin...you'd define these as works? This reminds me of the times I hear, "Chaplain, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not Jewish or Muslim. But that Jewish tray looks so good to me. Since I'm being honest, can I have the tray?"

Those no merit in that. There's no kudos for repentance, for humility in the face of an obvious need to be humble. Humble sinners are humble because they are sinners. There's no glory for that.

The fact that some look to God directly and spurn his love, does not mean that those of us who embrace him instead have done anything particularly praiseworthy. Angels rejoice, yes...but at our salvation, not our righteous labor. It's not by works of righteousness that I have done, but according to his mercy he has saved us. Ephesians 2:8-9 do not lie...we have nothing to boast about, and everything to be grateful for.

Interesting post but it still appears to me that you do believe that there really is something an individual needs to "do" that is praseworthy to G-d. It is that - to which G-d finds praseworthy that I believe is necessary and I also believe that being greatful is also something that G-d finds praseworthy.

What I do not understand is that you seem to be saying what I think you are saying - but every time I ask. You deny that G-d prases anyone and that there is nothing in anyone worth saving of those that he does save. There seems to be this never ending contradiction????

BTW - anything that requires your investment is in deed a kind of work - I do not know what else to call it. Do you have a suggestion?

The Traveler

Edited October 1, 2009 by Traveler

[Justice]

Which came first the salvation or the works?

I'll answer your question if you answer this one:

Do you love God first? Or, does salvation come first?

[Justice]

PC, let me word the question differently...

Will God save you if you do nothing?

[Maureen]

I'll answer your question if you answer this one:

Do you love God first? Or, does salvation come first?

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

Therefore, the salvation God gives us came first. A gift has to come first before it can be accepted. Having faith in God's ability to save us is a big deal. Thinking that God can't save us without us having to work for it is mocking God. Showing mankind that our faith is genuine by doing good works doesn't make the salvation we've already received extra shiny or makes us more saved. Salvation comes from God, he is the only one able to save. Accepting that salvation is not "a work", it is a testimony of our love and gratefulness for God.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

I'll answer your question if you answer this one:

Do you love God first? Or, does salvation come first?

In most cases, I'd suggest that salvation comes first. Why do people embrace salvation? They want to go to heaven, they don't want to go to hell, and the idea of a clean slate before the Creator is very attractive. In the process of conversion--of receiving salvation, the reality becomes apparent. "We love Him because He first loved us." Then, both our natural and our Spirit-empowered REACTION will be to return love.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm really curious now...how is Ephesians 2:8-9 understood in the LDS explanation of the Plan of Salvation?

[Seminarysnoozer]

If I asked you to learn Calculus on your own without ever consulting another source, a book or a teacher you could not do it in your lifetime. Now if I offered to purchase you a tutor, other then obtaining your commitment to study hard and listen to everything the tutor says and do your homework, then it is through the grace and my sacrifice that you would learn Calculus. You would learn Calculus by your hard and dedicated work but you wouldn't boast in that because you didn't discover it on your own, you didn't make it happen on your own, you couldn't.

Because of our fallen state, there is no other source or way to return to God but by Jesus Christ. We can't get there on our own without His sacrifice. God, being just, could not just give it to you for free, so there was a payment, Jesus Christ. Now, we are to listen to His terms, like listening to the tutor. We are 'off the hook' for God's debt and now we are indebted to Jesus. But, we still have to pay Jesus back in His terms, otherwise pay the consequences that he lays out in the gospel. Jesus' consequences, luckily, do not involve remaining in a fallen state. So, if I get there, I can't boast of all the hard work I still have to do to get there, because I couldn't do it all by myself (overcome death - this world), only if there is an alternate way of paying off the debt which is to follow Jesus. And, that gift of God, which is Jesus Christ, is not given to a certain few, anybody can take advantage of His plan. "No child left behind" haha. Of course this whole thing is very confusing if one thinks God and Jesus are the same person - but that's another discussion.

Alma 22: 14 (13-14)

14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

[pam]

I'm really curious now...how is Ephesians 2:8-9 understood in the LDS explanation of the Plan of Salvation?

If I may quote a couple of our past Prophets:

Ezra Taft Benson

Grace consists of God's gift to His children wherein He gave His Only Begotten Son in order that whosoever would believe in Him and comply with His laws and ordinances would have everlasting life. By grace, the Savior accomplished His atoning sacrifice so that all mankind will attain immortality. By His grace and by our faith in His atonement and our repentance of our sins, we receive the strength to do the necessary works that we otherwise could not do by our own power. By His grace, we receive an endowment of blessing and spiritual strength that may eventually lead us to eternal life if we endure to the end. By His grace, we become more like His divine personality.

David O. McKay

I am not unmindful of the scripture that declares, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. (Eph. 2:8.) That is absolutely true, for man in his taking upon himself mortality was impotent to save himself. When left to grope in a natural state, he would have become and did become “carnal, sensual, and devilish by nature.” But the Lord through his grace appeared to man, gave him the gospel or eternal plan whereby he might rise above the carnal and selfish things of life and obtain spiritual perfection (Gospel Ideals: Selections from the Discourses of David O. McKay [salt Lake City: Improvement Era, 1953], 10 - 11.)

[Maureen]

...But, we still have to pay Jesus back in His terms...

A gift is a gift. When you buy a gift for a friend do you give it to your friend and then say, "That'll be 20 bucks."? No, because then it would not be a gift. God gives us the gift of salvation, we accept that gift through faith in God. God offers us this priceless gift of salvation, we believe God has the ability to save us, so we accept that gift, we are saved. We can testify to others of this wonderful gift by our actions, but those actions do not change the power of the gift, they do not make the gift work better. The gift is the ultimate, it is beyond anything we have ever received, and it is through this gift that God saves us.

[Traveler]

A gift is a gift. When you buy a gift for a friend do you give it to your friend and then say, "That'll be 20 bucks."? No, because then it would not be a gift. God gives us the gift of salvation, we accept that gift through faith in God. God offers us this priceless gift of salvation, we believe God has the ability to save us, so we accept that gift, we are saved. We can testify to others of this wonderful gift by our actions, but those actions do not change the power of the gift, they do not make the gift work better. The gift is the ultimate, it is beyond anything we have ever received, and it is through this gift that God saves us.

You may have missed the point - If you intend to do anything in thanks or in return for Christ and his gift - it must be on his terms as G-d. Even the thought that you can do something on your terms (or anyone else’s) is not acceptable and inappropriate.

The Traveler