How to earn salvation by works.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps I should make clear that true believing, true conversion, will result in righteous deeds. The believer will do much. And yes, the growth is gradual. At conversion we are not "done"--we are BEGUN. Salvation for us is the commencement, not the retirement.

[Justice]

The works you mention are great works that all born again strive to do. However they are not required for salvation. You are saved by Grace alone and not by works so that you do not boast. When you say you need works for salvation you are claiming that Jesus alone is not enough. Is this what you teach?

And, by saying Jesus' works alone are enough you have to also say that all men are saved.

How can they not be saved if all they need are Christ' works? All have to be saved because Christ did work the works of salvation.

Read slowly and carefully, and then refute this logic with logic or scripture:

If Christ's works were enough, all by themselves, with nothing from the man, then all men are saved!

Look, once again I'll state it as cearly as I can:

Christ's works did make salvation possible for all men. Christ's works did not grant salvation to all men. Right? Isn't that a fact? Are all men saved to heaven?

(I'm using non-LDS terms to try to be more clear)

What is it that makes one man saved and one man not IF Christ's works alone take a man to salvation? Do you see what I'm saying? If Christ's works are all that is required for a man to be saved then all men would be saved. It's a simple math problem.

Since all are not saved, what is the variable that makes some saved and some not saved? It can't be Christ's work, can it? Isn't it enough to save a man all by itself?

Does Christ choose who is saved, or is it man's responsibility to at least believe?

If man has no responsibility for his belief, why don't all believe? God chooses?

Please be more clear and address the issue. I don't need more of the dual statements that say Christ is all you need but you have to believe.

Address that issue. Address how one can be saved by doing nothing and another can be damned for doing nothing.

[Justice]

Perhaps I should make clear that true believing, true conversion, will result in righteous deeds. The believer will do much. And yes, the growth is gradual. At conversion we are not "done"--we are BEGUN. Salvation for us is the commencement, not the retirement.

What if you decide, let's say, after 10 years of being a devout follower of Christ, that you don't want to follow Him anymore?

Is He going to force-save you against your will?

[Maureen]

You're hopeless Justice. I don't think there is anything else anyone can say that will make you understand or want to understand. It seems you don't like the answer and there's nothing that can change that except you.

M.

[bytor2112]

God is just. Only God knows the inner most desires of every person that has lived. Only God will decide the eternal situation of all those without the knowledge of Christ's gift. I have faith that what God decides will be good.

M.

You are saying that he will judge them based on their intentions.......their thoughts and actions? Sounds a bit contradictory? I mean he has to use some standard to judge by, doesn't he? Does Christ's Atonement include all of God's children or only the one's fortunate enough to hear the good word?

[Maureen]

You are saying that he will judge them based on their intentions.......their thoughts and actions? Sounds a bit contradictory? I mean he has to use some standard to judge by, doesn't he? Does Christ's Atonement include all of God's children or only the one's fortunate enough to hear the good word?

I am saying that God is good and no matter what he decides and what he judges it will be the right decision. I would hope that those who leave this life in ignorance of God's gift, would have salvation due to Christ's atonement. I do not know for sure but that is my hope.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

What if you decide, let's say, after 10 years of being a devout follower of Christ, that you don't want to follow Him anymore?

Is He going to force-save you against your will?

No. Salvation can be lost. There are many New Testament warnings about guarding our hearts, working out our salvation, etc. It is possible for the one who, once having been redeemed, to deny and dispose of their salvation.

[Traveler]

No. Salvation can be lost. There are many New Testament warnings about guarding our hearts, working out our salvation, etc. It is possible for the one who, once having been redeemed, to deny and dispose of their salvation.

Interesting, so it is possible to "work" out one's salvation??? - some day you and I should have a long talk. Maybe in heaven?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Interesting, so it is possible to "work" out one's salvation??? - some day you and I should have a long talk. Maybe in heaven?

The Traveler

You gonna hang with me in the Terrestial? If so, we'll do so over a cup of Joe.

[Justice]

You're hopeless Justice. I don't think there is anything else anyone can say that will make you understand or want to understand. It seems you don't like the answer and there's nothing that can change that except you.

M.

I'm asking a simple question in order to understand. I'm trying to ask my question as simply as I possibly can so you can address my question.

I know the words. I just don't understand how both opposites can be true at the same time. I'm asking for an explanation. If you don't know then say you don't know.

But, I assure you, it is something I have never been able to understand. It seems an answer is not forthcoming.

[Justice]

Interesting, so it is possible to "work" out one's salvation??? - some day you and I should have a long talk. Maybe in heaven?

The Traveler

See, the belief that salvation can be lost is not one shared by all Protestants. You have mentioned the major stumbling block as to why most think salvation cannot be lost. However, it is neither Biblical or true.

I know many Protestants on this forum think I am being difficult. But, the truth is, if a lack of action (or lack of belief or being valiant in Christ) leads one to not be saved, then the opposite must be true. It cannot also mean that a man can be saved by a lack of action.

All scripture must be true. When the scriptures say all who believe in Jesus Christ have eternal life, we need to understand what they mean by believe.

Here is my question:

Can one believe in Christ and do nothing about it?

My answer is no, making works a necessary part of accepting the salvation offered through Christ.

I think many people believe they are saved when they accept Christ. However, I believe acceptance is shown in our actions and even thoughts, moment to moment. Acceptance is a life-long process, not a one-time event. You cannot be saved until you have "fought the good fight" or lived in faith. It is hope of a better future, or a future with God, that leads men to become better. It is not a magic one-time event where we are purged of all desire to sin at once. I believe that is the main difference in our beliefs. It's all about the timing of being saved, and even more, the definition of being saved.

We are saved from death and hell, but we are also saved from our sins... we cannot be saved in our sins. What good is being forgiven if you still desire the sin for which you were forgiven? Even our own faulty prison system understands this simple concept. We are purged of sin, or the desire to sin, as we keep Christ's commandments to the best of our ability. We gain the strength of heaven to overcome and conquor. Then, when we are purged from the desire to sin, we can become holy and clean... new creatures in Christ... fit for His Kingdom.

What Christ offered is not a free pass. If it was, all would have this free pass (unless you believe God chooses who gets a pass and who doesn't).

I'm actually suprised that people as intelligent as PC, Maureen, and Jim don't see this.

I do believe in agency Maureen, and as so, we get to choose whether or not we follow Christ each and every day. What we do will reflect our choice, not our salvation. We have hope that Christ will save us, but we have no hope if we don't believe Him when He said "keep my commandments."

What a blessing modern revelation is...

D&C 82:

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Justice

[Guest]

No. Salvation can be lost. There are many New Testament warnings about guarding our hearts, working out our salvation, etc. It is possible for the one who, once having been redeemed, to deny and dispose of their salvation.

See PC, this is why I just cannot understand your (and Maureen's) viewpoint on this.

You keep on saying your conversion AUTOMATICALLY (I added that word according to my own understanding of what you said) makes you do works. So that, you are saved first then because of it you work. But we all know that is far from what happens. Because, with all our hearts, minds, and strength, we profess our love for Christ. And then we sin. And sin again. We sin and repent - it is a cycle. I will bet you a million dollars you have a whole bunch of sinners in your congregation. Is it not work to repent from sin? So, in the middle of all that sinning, we die before we had a chance to repent... I guess it doesn't matter. We are all saved. Especially since there's no such thing as ongoing works past the veil of death outside of the LDS faith. And most especially since there's only 2 states - heaven or hell - anywhere outside of the LDS faith.

And Maureen, Justice is not being obtuse. If he is, then I am too. Because, honestly, I just don't "get" what ya'll are saying. It's like the "mystery of the Trinity". They make it so complicated so that it will fit some literal wording in the scripture when it is much clearer if you try to see it from another angle.

But then, whether you believe the evangelical way or the LDS way, the end result is the same - you still do works. Amen.

[TruthSeekerToo]

I think it is the simplicity of Mercy that is so hard for us to understand.

It is so hard to give up control to God.

What works did the woman taken in adultery do to be forgiveness when Jesus pronounced her forgiven?

What works did the thief nailed to the cross beside him do to earn the promise of paradise from Jesus?

The woman, a sinner, who bathed his feet in tears...what were her works?

The little children and unaccounntable people...they are required nothing for their salvation. They will come forth in the morning of the first resurrection.

Alma the Younger is a fantastic example of how salvation is wrought. He was going about to destroy the church of God! He is visited by an angel while he engaged in his wicked design. Then struck dumb. This is what he tells the congregation:

Mosiah 27:24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lordl behold I am born of the Spirit.

It was through his repentance that he was redeemed. He became a new creature and son of Christ. He was redeemed from that very hour. Then he went about showing forth the fruit of God's saving grace.

Alma 34: 15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

....

31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

I love those scriptures. I love how it explains that when we soften our hearts and repent we are immediately redeemed. The gift is given and ready for us to accept. Salvation can happen in a day. All who repent lay claim to the mercy of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

The simplicity is perfectly illistrated in the story of Moses and the children of Isreal. Numbers 21:9 tells us that Moses made a serpent and set it upon a staff. All those who were bitten by the fiery serpent looked at the serpent of brass and live.

This is a pointer to Christ. We look to him and live. It really is that simple. However, it is not an easy thing for the natural man to do.

Edited October 4, 2009 by TruthSeekerToo

[prisonchaplain]

Can one believe in Christ and do nothing about it?

My answer is no, making works a necessary part of accepting the salvation offered through Christ.

I agree...except that I'd argue works are a necessary REACTION to accepting the salvation offered by Christ.

I think many people believe they are saved when they accept Christ. However, I believe acceptance is shown in our actions and even thoughts, moment to moment. Acceptance is a life-long process, not a one-time event.

On another string I posted a link to my blog, "I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved." My suggestion is that salvation is indeed a one-time event at commencement, but that it continues through life, and sees its completion in the future.

Edited October 4, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

See PC, this is why I just cannot understand your (and Maureen's) viewpoint on this.

You keep on saying your conversion AUTOMATICALLY (I added that word according to my own understanding of what you said) makes you do works. So that, you are saved first then because of it you work. But we all know that is far from what happens. Because, with all our hearts, minds, and strength, we profess our love for Christ. And then we sin. And sin again. We sin and repent - it is a cycle. I will bet you a million dollars you have a whole bunch of sinners in your congregation. Is it not work to repent from sin? So, in the middle of all that sinning, we die before we had a chance to repent... I guess it doesn't matter. We are all saved. Especially since there's no such thing as ongoing works past the veil of death outside of the LDS faith. And most especially since there's only 2 states - heaven or hell - anywhere outside of the LDS faith.

Let me suggest that for the truly saved it would indeed be hard to lose it. If you trip, speak the name of the LORD in vain, then land on your head, and die of a concussion, before you could repent of the specific sin of taking the LORD's name in vain, it's a pretty safe bet that such a soul is still saved. What could bring about a loss of salvation is: denial of God and his salvation, repeated disobedience that leads to a hardening of the heart, and such as becoming over-concerned with the affairs of this world, to the point where love of God gradually fades away.

Yes, as Christians, we sometimes fail. We commit sins, and, by failing to do as God asks, we sin by not committing the good he calls us to. And, we must repent of these. This is all a part of what we call "progressive sanctification." God, as a loving parent, will discipline us when we stray. It's not a smooth upward track for most. On the other hand, the narrow way that leads to life may well include some potholes (sin incidents). Most often, imho, loss of salvation is not an one-time sin event, but repeated "small" decisions that drive God's Spirit out of our lives.

[Seminarysnoozer]

There are two other scriptures that I was reminded of by listening to conference today, at least to me, support the need for work. One is where Jesus says come unto me for my burden is light. Well, if there was no burden at all, He would have said come unto me as there is no burden with me. But there is a burden, it's light, it's easy, but there is a burden.

The other scripture is where He says, (right after He said He casts the unprofitable servant into outer darkness)," inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." .... and essentially the same thing was said for not doing those things to others, is like not doing it to Jesus. The thing to think about there is the doing part of it ... He said that it is like doing it to Him, in other words, the works, are of value to Him, they mean something directly to Him. If not, He would have said you should just be good to everyone, and that's it, why relate it to doing it to Him? why would it have any effect on Jesus? unless it has value to Jesus, unless we have to answer to Jesus. Remember too this is talking about after this life is over for you and looking back on your life, in other words people who being judged by God. And if you believe that, then works have value to Jesus. At the end of that example, he says the righteous will have Eternal Life, so clearly relating these acts to either leading to Eternal Life, or everlasting punishment. So, if you believe, but didn't do those things unto the least of these my brethren ... its everlasting punishment.

[Traveler]

You gonna hang with me in the Terrestial? If so, we'll do so over a cup of Joe.

I do not think for a moment that you would be content or happy without the full impact in eternity of the whole and perfect Law of Christ - which is Celestial. Which in part is why I from time to time, seriously engage you with thoughts. I know for myself that I have every intension to learn, practice and understand the perfect Law of Christ. I am not sure of the path you intend to follow but I do know for myself I will accept my time now as an apprentice; with full intent of becoming a master as like unto my teacher.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler...your #67 was not at all wrong. But, you could just winked and offered to toss a rope ladder. :-)

[Justice]

What works did the woman taken in adultery do to be forgiveness when Jesus pronounced her forgiven?

This is where Christ shows His great compassion. Also, He is moving people away from the Law of Moses, where the sentence of death was instant and immutable, to love and compassion... and repentance.

He told her to "go and sin no more." Why would that matter if she was "saved" at that instant?

Edited October 5, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

But then, whether you believe the evangelical way or the LDS way, the end result is the same - you still do works. Amen.

...and those works are still required, whether pre or post. They are a necessary part of following Christ; accepting Christ; being a believer.

That's my point. Works are required in order to be labeled a believer, because whether you like it or not, that's what Christ teaches.

So, when the scriptures say salvation comes to those that believe, works are implied. You cannot claim to be a believer and not work at Christ's commandments/teachings.

So, I guess the issue is at what point are you saved? I agree it happens the moment you accept Him into your heart, but it is conditional on what you do with your life. It is only instant if you live a Christ-like life from that moment on. If you do not live a Christ-like life after you accept Him, which is where the vast-majortiy of people fall, then it's a life long process of learning to live Christ-like through repentance.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Justice

[Hemidakota]

Justice is correct. Not only our belief is required about the Savior, our works should be a demonstration of such when we truly follow him. We can look back of many of those who we quote, have demonstrated their faith and love for the Lord and His teaching by doing the works of Master. Anyone who really knows Lucifer, will testify of his knowledge of the chosen Savior but does not follow or do the work of the Great Jehovah.

Looking from GOD's eyes, you are only saved when you stand in HIS presence for eternality.

[prisonchaplain]

Sometimes it just seems that we evangelicals love to emphasize the gift of God's grace, and LDS are loathe to permit people the delusion of thinking they can just grab and run. In both cases, there is an underlying respect for God. One side stressing the gift, and the other the responsibility that the gift entails.

Child A: Aren't mom and dad great? They got me this car.

Child B: Yeah, but they said you have to drive careful, pay for the insurance, and keep getting good grades.

Child A: But the GAVE me this car. They're awesome!

Child B: Don't forget, you have take care of it and yourself.

Child A: Bro., I could never have gotten this car. Mom and Dad are AWESOME!!!

Child B: Just remember, you've gotta take care of stuff.

Are we talking past each other here?

[Guest]

Sometimes it just seems that we evangelicals love to emphasize the gift of God's grace, and LDS are loathe to permit people the delusion of thinking they can just grab and run. In both cases, there is an underlying respect for God. One side stressing the gift, and the other the responsibility that the gift entails.

Child A: Aren't mom and dad great? They got me this car.

Child B: Yeah, but they said you have to drive careful, pay for the insurance, and keep getting good grades.

Child A: But the GAVE me this car. They're awesome!

Child B: Don't forget, you have take care of it and yourself.

Child A: Bro., I could never have gotten this car. Mom and Dad are AWESOME!!!

Child B: Just remember, you've gotta take care of stuff.

Are we talking past each other here?

Another exemplary PC post! You know you're my favorite evangelical right?

[ploomf]

I totally agree with your post PC. For me it's a balancing act. I have to try to keep the commandments and I do try to keep improving myself but when I mess up it's OK. I can repent and try again. Because Christ has already paid the price for my sins. I prefer to focus on Christ's love and grace because otherwise I get overwhelmed with all the commandments and laws I have to try to keep and I start to despair because I mess up a lot. But knowing that He has already paid the price for my sins doesn’t keep me from doing the best I can to keep his commandments.

But I have known some people who think they can just grab salvation and run. I remember reading an article after that guy shot all those women at the gym before killing himself. They were interviewing his pastor and his pastor believed that he was in heaven because he was saved and they believed that once saved always saved.

I also remember a after school bible study I went to when I was little. The woman who held it asked us the first day if we wanted to be saved. I came from a home with two very unreligious parents, I had no clue what being saved meant. I had a very shaky idea of who God and Jesus were. But I said yes along with everyone else and she gathered us in a circle and prayed for us and then said we were saved and going to heaven and we didn't ever have to worry again. We any of us really saved at that point? We were really little kids, I know I still had no clue what being saved meant but heaven sounded nice. My brother was in that group. He is now closer to being an atheist than anything. Is he still saved? According to the woman who held that program yes.

[Traveler]

One of the problems in determining if we earn salvation has to do with value and price. Although there is a price to salvation that must be paid by man, G-d pays the greater part. Some say that the grace of G-d is sufficient but then deny their own words when they add that we must accept, believe or love G-d. What I think they mean to say is that G-d’s grace is sufficient if we believe, accept or love G-d.

Consider Mosiah 2:21-24

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

So even though G-d requires that you contribute and invest in his blessings – it does not completely “earn” the full price required by the law of justice for what you receive. Therefore G-d must make a sacrifice and pay part himself – which by the law of justice is a true loss to him even though he is infinite.

The second part I believe is important is from the same chapter of Mosiah 36-39

36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved—

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

In other words my friends – if you know better you better do better.

The Traveler