Age of Accountability

[TheJoker]

He decided to allow Heavenly Father to help him to become what he decided he wanted.

That's very good for him. However people who have had similar bad experiences would soon turn the opposite way.

He hates the "my situation is because of what I went through, or its not my fault because of how I was raised."

That's not really the answer to what i asked though. I am talking about people people who do not accept the gospel or believe in something after this life because of things that have happened in their life. That's not someone saying "It's not my fault". But if you had been raised by a rapist or a murderer. You would be less likely to believe this life has a purpose.

It has an effect no question but those of the best upbringing and situation can turn out the worst and the ones with the worst upbringing and situations can turn out the best.

Yes they can. But this is not always the case.

Because Heavenly Father gave us the agency to choose.

God created us all. He knows the end from the beginning. If this is true then when he created us he knew what role we would play in this life and what we would do. I do not consider that free agency but that is my opinion.

rovides us a way to have the strength to do so.

It just takes lots of work, time, effort and faith.

It's always easier said than done.

[lattelady]

Do LDS members believe that they/we were born with a sin nature? I'm wanting to fully understand the "age of accountability" belief. Someone earlier said there aren't many ways before age 8 that one could sin. What about kids between ages of 3 and 7 who tell lies? or steal something from someone? or behave selfishly? or hit their sibling or parent out of anger?

[TheJoker]

Do LDS members believe that they/we were born with a sin nature?

Yes. However children are different.

I'm wanting to fully understand the "age of accountability" belief. Someone earlier said there aren't many ways before age 8 that one could sin.

Not many really serious sins anyway

What about kids between ages of 3 and 7 who tell lies?

I think you will find that all children will tell lies.

steal something from someone?

Yes but just because they have done it doesn't mean they understand why it is wrong.

or behave selfishly? or hit their sibling or parent out of anger?

Children get angry. They don't understand that the whole world does not revolve around them. They fight with each other. And behave selfishly. This is what seperates children from adults. Children are excusable from these things as they simply do not understand.

[pam]

Children get angry. They don't understand that the whole world does not revolve around them. They fight with each other. And behave selfishly. This is what seperates children from adults.

You really think this is what separates children from adults? I've known many adults who have many of these "qualities."

Yes children lie, they take things that don't belong to them...they hit their siblings. But the ages of 3-7 as mentioned are still learning ages for them. By the age of 8 they should have learned that these things are not appropriate.

[TheJoker]

I've known many adults who have many of these "qualities."

Yes i do too. But adults who do it understand exactly what they are doing.

Yes children lie, they take things that don't belong to them...they hit their siblings. But the ages of 3-7 as mentioned are still learning ages for them. By the age of 8 they should have learned that these things are not appropriate.

Oh they will learn by this age that they are not appropriate. But not to a real spiritual level.

[beefche]

Do LDS members believe that they/we were born with a sin nature? I'm wanting to fully understand the "age of accountability" belief. Someone earlier said there aren't many ways before age 8 that one could sin. What about kids between ages of 3 and 7 who tell lies? or steal something from someone? or behave selfishly? or hit their sibling or parent out of anger?

latte, what do you mean by "sin nature?"

LDS believe that the atonement of Jesus covers children before the age of accountability. Because children are born into a sinful world, they are likely to do things that are wrong (sin implies a knowledgeable turning from what is right). Because of this, we believe that Jesus paid for this with His atonement.

[pam]

Oh they will learn by this age that they are not appropriate. But not to a real spiritual level.

I don't believe they are expected to know these things on a real spiritual level. They are taught to have the basic understanding of what's right and wrong. They are taught about baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. They are taught that their sins will be washed away and taught basic principles of repentance.

We can't expect any more from children...the same as any adult who is investigating the Church. It's steps at a time..whether children or a new adult member.

I guess I just don't understand those that have a hard time with the age of 8. It's an age when kids do understand consequences. Again, they aren't expected to have a full understanding...but at least have some of the basic principles and understanding.

Kids even between the ages of 3-7 who lie have an understanding of right and wrong. How many of those kids lie because they are afraid of getting in trouble for something they know they did wrong?

[lattelady]

What scriptures are you basing the "age of accountability" teaching on? Where does that come from specifically?

[pam]

We go by revelation given to Joseph Smith: You can read this in section 68. Verses 25 and 27, This is in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Doctrine and Covenants 68

[lattelady]

Beefche, I believe that the Bible teaches that each of us were born (because of the Fall of Eve and Adam) with a sin nature. Because of Adam and Eve's decision to sin, every generation after that would be born with an inborn nature to sin/to gratify the flesh/to please self/not to follow after God. I don't believe in an across-the-board age of accountability. I believe that each individual, born in sin, comes to a point of intellectual understanding; and that understanding doesn't have to be great. The Bible says it takes "child-like faith". So even a young child can understand the simple elements of the gospel--that Jesus died for their sin, that He was buried and raised again by the power of God. If they are not able to understand that, they shouldn't be held accountable for what they can't understand. But I wouldn't underestimate what any child can or cannot comprehend and therefore wouldn't put a specific age on it. I haven't seen that in scripture.

[TheJoker]

I don't believe they are expected to know these things on a real spiritual level. They are taught to have the basic understanding of what's right and wrong.

But the baptism is done for spiritual reasons.

They are taught about baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. They are taught that their sins will be washed away and taught basic principles of repentance.

Do they understand what sins mean? Do they know what it really means to have their sins washed away. There is a difference between telling a child something. And a child understanding something.

We can't expect any more from children...the same as any adult who is investigating the Church. It's steps at a time..whether children or a new adult member.

Children have a basic understanding. They believe what they are told to believe. Adults don't act like this. They believe what they come to think they understand.

I guess I just don't understand those that have a hard time with the age of 8. It's an age when kids do understand consequences. Again, they aren't expected to have a full understanding...but at least have some of the basic principles and understanding.

True. But it is a eternal commitment. Sounds a bit important to be decided for you when you are 8.

Kids even between the ages of 3-7 who lie have an understanding of right and wrong. How many of those kids lie because they are afraid of getting in trouble for something they know they did wrong?

Yes. But they lie because they don't want their parents to tell them off. Not because it is a sin. This is the same when they are 8.

[pam]

Beefche, I believe that the Bible teaches that each of us were born (because of the Fall of Eve and Adam) with a sin nature. Because of Adam and Eve's decision to sin, every generation after that would be born with an inborn nature to sin/to gratify the flesh/to please self/not to follow after God. I don't believe in an across-the-board age of accountability. I believe that each individual, born in sin, comes to a point of intellectual understanding; and that understanding doesn't have to be great. The Bible says it takes "child-like faith". So even a young child can understand the simple elements of the gospel--that Jesus died for their sin, that He was buried and raised again by the power of God. If they are not able to understand that, they shouldn't be held accountable for what they can't understand. But I wouldn't underestimate what any child can or cannot comprehend and therefore wouldn't put a specific age on it. I haven't seen that in scripture.

I do agree with you on not understimating what a child can understand. We don't give children enough credit sometimes. Again, we use the age of 8 because that is the revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith.

[pam]

Joker I think you underestimate children at that age. Having had children of my own, working in the school system, being a Primary president and numerous other callings within Primary, I believe children do have more understanding than you are giving them credit for.

[beefche]

Let me help anyone who is not LDS: LDS people believe in modern revelation. We believe in modern prophets and in scriptures other than the Bible. That means that lay members (and even GAs) don't always know the answers to all questions. But, because we believe in modern prophets and other scriptures, we are satisfied with relying on faith. We can search, study, pray, and think but there are some things we just have to rely on faith.

Why the age of 8? Because we believe God said so. That does not mean that some children are not prepared at age 8 to actually make covenants. That does not mean that adults at age 38 are able to make covenants. Each person is interviewed before baptism. Who are we to tell someone that their testimony isn't real? That their desire to be baptized is not real because they don't understand the full implications?

People who are deemed mentally incompetent are not baptized. Children are not automatically mentally incompetent. I did not understand the full implications of baptism and I was 18 when I was baptized.

[beefche]

But the baptism is done for spiritual reasons.

Do they understand what sins mean? Do they know what it really means to have their sins washed away. There is a difference between telling a child something. And a child understanding something.

Children have a basic understanding. They believe what they are told to believe. Adults don't act like this. They believe what they come to think they understand.

True. But it is a eternal commitment. Sounds a bit important to be decided for you when you are 8.

Yes. But they lie because they don't want their parents to tell them off. Not because it is a sin. This is the same when they are 8.

Every one of these statements can be said about adults as well. BTW, baptism isn't decided for a kid--the 8 y/o has to be interviewed by a bishop as well. Is there pressure to be baptized? Probably in some families, unfortunately. But those parents will be held accountable for that.

[lattelady]

Beefche, I have gained an understanding since I've been on this forum of what you believe about modern revelation. I still wanted to know where to find a reference for that teaching. Pam gave it a few posts ago (thanks Pam). I wanted to know if it was a scriptural reference you were looking at (in the Bible or the BOM that I hadn't seen before (Bible) or understood (BOM); but I understand now that it's from the D&C--I assume that's part of your canonized scripture. THanks for explaining your point of view; I explained mine, too, because you asked me too.

[TheJoker]

Joker I think you underestimate children at that age. Having had children of my own, working in the school system, being a Primary president and numerous other callings within Primary, I believe children do have more understanding than you are giving them credit for.

I am not underestimating anyone. I am going off personal experience.

Funnily enough i didn't know anywhere near as much about what Baptism/repentance really mean when i was 8.

My family basically made the decision for me. Yes, funnily enough i don't agree with that.

There understanding is simple. "If i do something bad. I tell god i am sorry".

That is the mind of an eight year old.

They don't understand what eternity means, or consequences of sins when your accountable.

And while they still have a very tiny understanding of what quite is going on. The decision should be theirs to make when they reach an age where they can understand exactly what they are committing to.

[beefche]

Beefche, I have gained an understanding since I've been on this forum of what you believe about modern revelation. I still wanted to know where to find a reference for that teaching. Pam gave it a few posts ago (thanks Pam). I wanted to know if it was a scriptural reference you were looking at (in the Bible or the BOM that I hadn't seen before (Bible) or understood (BOM); but I understand now that it's from the D&C--I assume that's part of your canonized scripture. THanks for explaining your point of view; I explained mine, too, because you asked me too.

latte, Mormons have 4 cannonized scriptures: Bible, BoM, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. We hold each to be sacred and God's word. So, when someone asks for a scriptures reference, we will likely give one of these books and feel we are providing scripture.

I wasn't just responding to your post. I often think about people who read our threads and never post at all. This forum gets a lot of hits and people not familiar with our beliefs read these posts.

I appreciated your post regarding sin nature. I think as LDS and non-LDS respond with respect and not always assume to understand/know what the other means by their words, we can come to a deeper understanding and even appreciation for differing beliefs.

[pam]

Then that is YOUR personal experience. Perhaps you weren't ready to make the commitment to baptism. But that doesn't mean there aren't many more children who are 8 years old that are ready and have been deemed ready to be baptized by their Bishop who has interviewed them.

How many adults understand the entire concept of eternity and what their actions mean?

[pam]

I think as LDS and non-LDS respond with respect and not always assume to understand/know what the other means by their words, we can come to a deeper understanding and even appreciation for differing beliefs.

I agree with this..but only if both sides are willing to listen and acknowledge the beliefs of the other.

[lattelady]

I do acknowledge your beliefs and "listen" through the computer to what you're saying. I don't agree with everything you believe, just as you don't agree with everything I believe. I hope I've never been disrespectful.

[beefche]

I do acknowledge your beliefs and "listen" through the computer to what you're saying. I don't agree with everything you believe, just as you don't agree with everything I believe. I hope I've never been disrespectful.

I haven't found you to be so. Of course if I do, I can always spit on your computer screen....wait, does this mean I find EVERYBODY disrespectful????

[TheJoker]

Then that is YOUR personal experience.

I went to primary. This is only just around 11 years ago for me. And i listened and did as all children did.

Perhaps you weren't ready to make the commitment to baptism.

I think this could be true with many children and converts.

But that doesn't mean there aren't many more children who are 8 years old that are ready and have been deemed ready to be baptized by their Bishop who has interviewed them.

Yes he has interviewed them. And half of it is to explain what is going on. And why you will be going under the water. But a child just sees it as something they have to do. Children are not going to go "Well i would like to delay getting baptized because i want to read my scriptures and pray about whether it is true" They accept that they are getting baptized. And probably don't even consider that it is optional.

Please don't assume you know what children are thinking. They get baptized. Simply. Because they are told to.

How many adults understand the entire concept of eternity and what their actions mean?

They have personally read about it, prayed about it. And decided it is the right thing for them to do.

Children don't do that.

[TheJoker]

I appreciated your post regarding sin nature. I think as LDS and non-LDS respond with respect and not always assume to understand/know what the other means by their words, we can come to a deeper understanding and even appreciation for differing beliefs.

There is no 'If's' or 'but's' about this.

I appreciate any belief. Personally i believe the world would be a much better place is everybody just got along. Regardless on belief.

Nobody has the right to degrade anybody's beliefs.

[beefche]

You know, Joker, you and I are just going to disagree on this.

I wanted to be baptized at age 8. I had never gone to church, read only part of the BoM, and had limited exposure to church people. My experience tells me that kids do know enough of baptism at that age to be accountable.

I was 18 when I was actually baptized. By that time, I had attended church for about 3 months, took the discussions from the missionaries, read the BoM, and was immersed in church people and culture (can't get more of it than at BYU). But a few years later (ok, many years later), I realize that what I knew at age 18 was nothing compared to my understanding/knowledge now.