Changes to John 3:16

[Snow]

I thought there were three Gabors, not two.

And so there are... Eva, Zsa Zsa and their older sister Magda, best known for her role as Hikaru Sulu, helmsman from the original Star Trek.

[Snow]

I don't understand all the hoopla over it.

Hmmm, it seems lattelady is distressed that anyone should think it is required to obey God.

[Traveler]

Hmmm, it seems lattelady is distressed that anyone should think it is required to obey God.

There may be something else but I am not sure. I think it may be possible she is concerned, like some LDS and many others, that admitting or understanding that G-d requires those that love him and know him keep his commandments; that love would take on a different meaning and a commitment other than what she is willing to give or to offer as sacrifice before G-d as a “token” of her belief in Him – unless she can have something of value from G-d guaranteed or assured for herself first.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

You know...I understand all the scars and frustration with the grace vs. works thing...and how LDS are often outcast over this very issue--and how tempting it is to accuse your accusers of believing they don't have to obey God at all...but...if you stoop, then you lose any higher ground. You become the same...

Lattelady was concerned that Scripture had been intentionally altared to support a doctrine. Whether the doctrine is valid or not, that was her concern. On the other hand, there appears to be no evidence that John 3:16 was altared in any official LDS speech or publication, so the concern seems moot.

Gotta play nice--or people will think there's meaness.

[lattelady]

It's sortof strange to have people contemplate FOR me what it is I am "distressed" about or "concerned" about--when really I'm neither of the two, and certainly able to tell you what it is you'd like to know, rather than a couple of you hypothesizing about it. It's kindof like having people talk about you when you're in the same room and can hear everything they're saying! :)

1) I absolutely believe that if someone LOVES GOD, they WILL keep His commandments.

2) It's because of what God "assured me" of (His UNCONDITIONAL love)-- "We love Him because He first loved us"--that I love Him and serve Him. His love wasn't just words, as we all know--He loved me enough to die for me. I love Him because of that.

Again, Traveler, it seems somewhat disrespectful for you to speak about what I am willing to give or offer before God as a "token" when you know nothing of my faith or relationship with God. The difference between my thoughts on the subject and yours, perhaps, are that my salvation is not contingent upon whether I do good works or keep His commandments. Those things, as have been said MANY times on other threads--come as an outpouring of my love and devotion for One who gave me the gift of salvation that I didn't have to do anything for; and in fact, if I had done something to get it, I wouldn't have been able to receive it. If you have questions about my faith or what I believe, feel free to ask me and I'll do my best to answer.

[Traveler]

It's sortof strange to have people contemplate FOR me what it is I am "distressed" about or "concerned" about--when really I'm neither of the two, and certainly able to tell you what it is you'd like to know, rather than a couple of you hypothesizing about it. It's kindof like having people talk about you when you're in the same room and can hear everything they're saying! :)

1) I absolutely believe that if someone LOVES GOD, they WILL keep His commandments.

2) It's because of what God "assured me" of (His UNCONDITIONAL love)-- "We love Him because He first loved us"--that I love Him and serve Him. His love wasn't just words, as we all know--He loved me enough to die for me. I love Him because of that.

Again, Traveler, it seems somewhat disrespectful for you to speak about what I am willing to give or offer before God as a "token" when you know nothing of my faith or relationship with God. The difference between my thoughts on the subject and yours, perhaps, are that my salvation is not contingent upon whether I do good works or keep His commandments. Those things, as have been said MANY times on other threads--come as an outpouring of my love and devotion for One who gave me the gift of salvation that I didn't have to do anything for; and in fact, if I had done something to get it, I wouldn't have been able to receive it. If you have questions about my faith or what I believe, feel free to ask me and I'll do my best to answer.

All we have are your posts – so tell me where I am wrong. It is my impression that you desire and believe that someone seeking the things of G-d should do “nothing” until after G-d gives assurance and guarantees of salvation. That it is G-d’s will that his grace be accepted and that it is not really his will that his commandments be kept. That the commandments may be kept if someone feels so inclined (and you say you feel inclined) but in reality you believe his grace is sufficient and that any respect of his commandments adds nothing to salvation or anything else of real divine consequence.

So you can clearly understand what I believe: I believe that because of the Fall of Adam all men became fallen and cannot of themselves merit any divine or good blessing. However, because of the gift of grace through Jesus Christ the fall and death (death being the wage of sin) of all mankind has been redeemed. This gift is a free gift to all mankind. A true free gift because all are redeemed from death and resurrected and thus every sole will be resurrected and stand before G-d to account for their deeds. Some believe this is all there is of salvation – but not my belief. But it is important to understand that LDS doctrine is that if it was not for the free gift of grace through Jesus Christ, no one could be resurrected and stand before G-d to account for their deeds.

Next: Those that forgive will be forgiven. In short those that have learned to love keeping all the commandments will find living with G-d an enjoyable thing. I believe keeping the commandments is necessary. I believe that those that have not kept the commandments will not desire to be with G-d. Again I believe that it is necessary to keep the commandments for all those that expect or think to have any assurance that they will find any joy in living with G-d.

And so it is when I hear someone say that keeping the commandments are not necessary – it is my impression that they do not know G-d and because they do not know him they do not love him and I cannot and should not trust or believe, with any assurance, that they are telling the truth. Not because I am disrespectful of their beliefs but because that is according to the commandment (which I intend to obey) given to me by my master.

The Traveler

Edited October 23, 2009 by Traveler

[lattelady]

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that this is what I believe:

I believe that Jesus died because of the sin that separates every human from Him. Through His death (which was really meant for me--since the "wages of sin is death", and He never sinned), He offers me eternal life. He says to everyone who BELIEVES, they will be called sons of God. He THEN says, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

I believe in what He did on the cross, I believe it was for me (a sinner like the rest of the human race), and I accept the gift He is giving of eternal life. Because of my love for Him, I obey Him and keep His commands. Would you want someone to do things for you because they HAVE TO, to get something from you, or would you want someone to do things for you because they love you and want to? I serve Him out of love.

[Snow]

Lattelady was concerned that Scripture had been intentionally altared to support a doctrine. Whether the doctrine is valid or not, that was her concern. .

Neh, I don't think so.

On one hand she says she is bothered by an, as yet, non-existent change to scripture, yet what when I twice asked if she was also bothered by real demonstrable changes (interpolations) to scripture, she had nothing to say.

Seems that change, real or imagined, is not the real issue.

[Snow]

It's sortof strange to have people contemplate FOR me what it is I am "distressed" about or "concerned" about--when really I'm neither of the two, and certainly able to tell you what it is you'd like to know, rather than a couple of you hypothesizing about it. It's kindof like having people talk about you when you're in the same room and can hear everything they're saying! :)

Perhaps you can explain the difference between "bothered" (which you say you are) and concerned. Are you bothered but not concerned?

1) I absolutely believe that if someone LOVES GOD, they WILL keep His commandments.

However, your belief about loving God not withstanding, actually obeying God is not necessary, right?

[lattelady]

Snow,

Though I cannot find the post in which I saw words added to John 3:16 (making that point moot), that WAS what I was bothered by, concerned with, and it WAS the issue--what "seems" to be the issue, to you, would be irrelevant to what the issue truly was with ME. The fact that I don't choose to answer your questions in regard to "real demonstrable changes (interpolations) to scripture has nothing to do with what I am bothered by. It has everything to do with my desire not to engage in a conversation about the scriptures that I love with someone who is disrespectful to me as a person, my beliefs, my faith, and my intelligence (or possibly your perceived lack thereof) :).

Edited October 24, 2009 by lattelady

[lattelady]

In an attempt to clarify further to Traveler, or Snow, or Vort or anyone else who is of the assumption that I believe that I have no need to follow Christs commandments, I will tell you a bit more about myself and my testimony. (note: if you don't care, you can stop reading now) :)

In reading numerous interesting and enlightening posts since August when I joined LDS.net, I've learned a great deal about many people who I've never met. I've learned that there are other non-LDS posters here that are Christians, and even WE have some differences of belief. You've gathered by now that I'm a "born-again Christian", but prefer just to say Christian--1)because it's shorter :)

2)because I've noticed that many LDS people have a bad taste in their mouths toward Christians who claim "born-again" status.

Nonetheless, it doesn't change the fact that I had a physical birth in 1975, and a spiritual birth in 1986. Born again.

One difference in beliefs that I may have with other born-again Christians is that I believe I cannot, nor can anyone who is truly a believer, lose my salvation. I believe that when I put my trust in Christ for salvation, I received a deposit (the Holy Spirit) who entered my life/heart (not my physical, beating heart, but my spiritual heart), and that deposit was a guarantee that sealed my eternal inheritance. You might say, "What about someone who 'trust's Christs' and then walks away and denies Him? Do they still go to Heaven?" I believe that someone who walks away and denies Him never TRULY put their faith and trust in what He did for them. He knows those that are His. I also believe that there is such a thing as a person in rebellion, even while a Christian. We call them "backslidden." I, myself, had a period of serious backsliding/rebellion in my teen years. Did I lose my salvation then? I don't believe so! I ignored the Holy Spirit so much, and grieved Him, I'm sure. I didn't talk to God, or read His Word. But I can look back now and see that He was PURSUING ME. He forgives me for those several years of rebellion. How do I know? Because I've confessed them and His Word says, "If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

I absolutely believe that we need to follow His commandments BECAUSE He gave them to us to help us walk rightly. He loves us and as our Father, knows what is best for us. And it's how we show our love for Him. It's also how we will keep in step with the Holy Spirit so we won't ignore or grieve Him--we'll walk with Him and He will teach us and guide us. The question remains, is my SALVATION contingent on whether I obey or not? I don't believe that God's word says it is. But I believe God's Word says that obedience is the BEST WAY to SHOW that we believe.

Edited October 24, 2009 by lattelady

[prisonchaplain]

I recently encountered a "translation" of the Bible that includes words in brackets. These additions are said to explain the meaning, though the words in brackets are not in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. This particular version is used in one sect only, and they insist it is the most accurate.

I've seen the passages in question, and the bracketed words give every appearance of supporting particular doctrines held by the sect. To be clear (though most here should immediately know this) it is not an LDS Bible.

Notes on the side, or even in a small center column--fine. But, to imbed doctrinal notes within the text is highly suspicious. So, when I read the OP, I immediately understood the issue that was being presented. Turns out that nobody can find the offending example, so the point is moot. However, I take Lattelady at her word that she thought she had seen such a thing, and was trying to find out if such could really happen. Fortunately, there is no evidence, and the message delivered here is that no, that would not be okay--at least not as a claimed direct quote of scripture.

[Snow]

Snow,

Though I cannot find the post in which I saw words added to John 3:16 (making that point moot), that WAS what I was bothered by, concerned with, and it WAS the issue--what "seems" to be the issue, to you, would be irrelevant to what the issue truly was with ME. The fact that I don't choose to answer your questions in regard to "real demonstrable changes (interpolations) to scripture has nothing to do with what I am bothered by. It has everything to do with my desire not to engage in a conversation about the scriptures that I love with someone who is disrespectful to me as a person, my beliefs, my faith, and my intelligence (or possibly your perceived lack thereof) :).

Which is kindaroundabout way of completely avoiding the issue - again.

[Snow]

I absolutely believe that we need to follow His commandments BECAUSE He gave them to us to help us walk rightly. He loves us and as our Father, knows what is best for us. And it's how we show our love for Him. It's also how we will keep in step with the Holy Spirit so we won't ignore or grieve Him--we'll walk with Him and He will teach us and guide us. The question remains, is my SALVATION contingent on whether I obey or not? I don't believe that God's word says it is. But I believe God's Word says that obedience is the BEST WAY to SHOW that we believe.

Well that clarifies it - sorta, kinda. You believe that obedience to God is necessary but obedience to God is not necessary for salvation. That's not particularly clear though, but it does prompt the question... if you do not believe that obeying God is required, how do you explain all the verses in James (for example chapter 2) or Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, 1 John, Hebrews 2 Peter. etc that say otherwise?

Do you believe that they are all interpolations?

Are they to be ignored?

Are they errant?

[Maureen]

Which is kindaroundabout way of completely avoiding the issue - again.

She's not ignoring the issue Snow; she's ignoring you and rightly so. If you stop with the condescending games and make a better effort at sincerity and respect you might get a real dialogue going. But I suspect you don't really want that.

M.

[Snow]

She's not ignoring the issue Snow; she's ignoring you and rightly so. If you stop with the condescending games and make a better effort at sincerity and respect you might get a real dialogue going. But I suspect you don't really want that.

M.

She hardly ignores me - she responds to me all the time - for example, twice in the last couple posts. She ignores issues I raise that can't be or that she can't appropriately address. Besides which, for the most part, you have to read in a lot of your own baggage on most of my posts to think that I am condescending. The majority of my posts are tone - neutral. People just don't like to be called on their inconsistencies.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Snow

[Maureen]

She hardly ignores me - she responds to me all the time - for example, twice in the last couple posts....

She responded to your post to explain why she was ignoring you. :)

M.

[Snow]

She responded to your post to explain why she was ignoring you. :)

M.

Twice... for good measure. And that's just today.

[Justice]

I think what might satisfy both sides here is for you to address the scriptures Traveler presented. Just for the moment, ignore John 3:16 and tell us how you feel about 1 John 2: 3-4.

[Maureen]

...So you can clearly understand what I believe: I believe that because of the Fall of Adam all men became fallen and cannot of themselves merit any divine or good blessing. However, because of the gift of grace through Jesus Christ the fall and death (death being the wage of sin) of all mankind has been redeemed. This gift is a free gift to all mankind. A true free gift because all are redeemed from death and resurrected and thus every sole will be resurrected and stand before G-d to account for their deeds. Some believe this is all there is of salvation – but not my belief. But it is important to understand that LDS doctrine is that if it was not for the free gift of grace through Jesus Christ, no one could be resurrected and stand before G-d to account for their deeds....

Traveler, would you say then that the atonement only has the power to resurrect mankind and not the power to save. Resurrection comes to all, even without the benefit of belief (faith) and salvation only comes through obedience to God? If so, what does faith offer, if it has no power to resurrect or save?

M.

[lattelady]

1 John 2:3 & 4--Justice, you said we should address the verses Traveler presented. I will do my best.

These verses say that if we know Him we will keep His commandments. It also says that the man who says "I know Him" but doesn't keep His commandments is a liar (that is a Lattelady paraphrase).

Do I disagree with these verses? No! But tell me, Traveler. Do you consistently, day-by-day, 24-hours-a-day keep ALL of the commandments? If you do not, are you a liar according to these verses? If we look at these verses in light of all of scripture, I believe we'll come to the conclusion that our life is to be characterized by obedience. None of us is perfect, none of us can keep the commandments perfectly--thus our need for a savior! These verses don't PROVE that in order to secure our salvation we must trust in God AND keep His commandments. They teach that we ought to have keep his commandments if we love him--that His children should have lives characterized by obedience. But again, our SALVATION is by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone--and keeping His commandments should follow.

[Snow]

1 John 2:3 & 4--Justice, you said we should address the verses Traveler presented. I will do my best.

These verses say that if we know Him we will keep His commandments. It also says that the man who says "I know Him" but doesn't keep His commandments is a liar (that is a Lattelady paraphrase).

Do I disagree with these verses? No! But tell me, Traveler. Do you consistently, day-by-day, 24-hours-a-day keep ALL of the commandments? If you do not, are you a liar according to these verses? If we look at these verses in light of all of scripture, I believe we'll come to the conclusion that our life is to be characterized by obedience. None of us is perfect, none of us can keep the commandments perfectly--thus our need for a savior! These verses don't PROVE that in order to secure our salvation we must trust in God AND keep His commandments. They teach that we ought to have keep his commandments if we love him--that His children should have lives characterized by obedience. But again, our SALVATION is by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone--and keeping His commandments should follow.

You aren't thinking through the implications. The verses clearly say that those that know God keep his commandments and if you say you know God but don't, then you are a liar. From John 17:3 (Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent) we find out what it means to know God. Knowing God means life eternal. Eternal life = salvation, all of which means that you do not obey God, you can't be saved... unless of course you think that John was mistaken.

[Justice]

Many people I know get caught in that trap, Lattelady. God commanded us to repent. That he commanded us to repent is proof He knew we would break His commandments. That He sent His Son to atone for those sins is proof He knew we would sin.

The Bible does not teach if you don't keep His commandments 100% all the time you can't be saved... it teaches repentance. Forgiveness is granted through repentance. It is the difference between those who are saved and those who are not... making it required.

We can be saved from our sins not in our sins. Repentance teaches us to give up our will to sin and come to know and do the will of God for us. Rarely can anyone give up all their sins at once. It is a lifelong process for most. It is done through repentance.

When you come to know Christ and what He did for you, you will want to do His will and keep His commandments. It can't be any other way.

If you do not feel you have to keep His commandments, then like the scripturers says, I don't know why you call Him your Savior and God.

[Justice]

But again, our SALVATION is by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone--and keeping His commandments should follow.

I wanted to address this separately.

There is no faith without works. Faith is not something invisible that we feel. It is something tangible that you can see and that you show. Faith produces miracles. There are no miracles without faith. If there are no miracles there is no faith. Keeping His commandments is something we learn to do through repentance, not something we master in a moment when we "accept Him."

[Traveler]

1 John 2:3 & 4--Justice, you said we should address the verses Traveler presented. I will do my best.

These verses say that if we know Him we will keep His commandments. It also says that the man who says "I know Him" but doesn't keep His commandments is a liar (that is a Lattelady paraphrase).

Do I disagree with these verses? No! But tell me, Traveler. Do you consistently, day-by-day, 24-hours-a-day keep ALL of the commandments? If you do not, are you a liar according to these verses? If we look at these verses in light of all of scripture, I believe we'll come to the conclusion that our life is to be characterized by obedience. None of us is perfect, none of us can keep the commandments perfectly--thus our need for a savior! These verses don't PROVE that in order to secure our salvation we must trust in God AND keep His commandments. They teach that we ought to have keep his commandments if we love him--that His children should have lives characterized by obedience. But again, our SALVATION is by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone--and keeping His commandments should follow.

Lattelady: Thank you for your response. This post is difficult because I am not sure you will understand spiritually what is intended. If we ask the question à who is Christ and what does it mean to know and accept him? Admittedly I (and perhaps other LDS) have a bit of a prejudice towards the concept of many “born again’s” as it has been experienced and expressed to us by those claiming to be expert in the born again way and therefore our example or light unto the world of what this really is and really means.

My reason for concern is because it appears to me that salvation to them is 100% selfish. It is about their assurance, their blessings and their relationship with G-d. It is very ME, ME, ME, ME and I get, I want and I have kind of thing. Born again’s look extremely “self” centered to me, not “Christ” centered. It is like their entire religious center is completely engulfed in the essence that salvation is getting everything and in giving nothing. In fact, giving as part of an “eternal change of heart” is opposed as being a “necessary” change of heart. Covenant promises to “lose” oneself in divine service are touted to have no eternal significance, necessity or consequence. Born again doctrine seems to be very much out of fashion with the “necessity” of being a light and an example and that any thinking that “being” Christ like is a religious mistake (false doctrine) and anyone realizing a necessity of such a covenant of giving without getting is not really their kind of Christian. They come up with terms and questions of criticism like – so you think you can “earn” salvation? And “Don’t you know that your good works and intensions in giving are evil in the sight of G-d? And then they go on and on about all the wonderful things they GET for giving nothing! They brag about all their blessings, assurances and wonderful things for them. The only chance for outward giving is something along the line of; don’t you want everything “I’ve got”. Don’t you want all these wonderful eternal things for yourself as well? Just give up hope for being something you are not and doing something you will never be “worthy” of being.

To be honest – it just does not seem very “Christ like” to me. There seems to be a major disconnect in what it means to be changed from selfishness self centered person of the world and changed into a believer in Christ that gives (because it really is necessary) all they have and all they are to G-d. In fact for all that I have learned about Jesus Christ, he is about the necessity for charity, the necessity of personal sacrifice, the necessity of forgiving, the necessity of repentance and the necessity of giving or in other words, the necessary to love G-d with all your heart, might, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as you love yourself – not words and do nothing expecting all blessing for yourself. I believe there is a more excellent way and it is not about finding yourself and your very own, contribute nothing, do nothing, all taken care of for you, salvation.

There is a better way – If you are interested – then come let us show you by example.

The Traveler