The Goal Of Our Faith

[Red]

Snow: 1) How on earth would you know what I/we believe unless I tell you what I believe. Because what I said were my beliefs didn't match what you wanted me/we to believe you turn around and accuse us of hiding something. Say Red - can you see the problem with that?. . .

2) Maybe what you meant, had you thought this through clearly, is that my beliefs or AKnight's beliefs don't match official LDS doctrine and that's a bad thing. But alas - that too is wrong because I, as a Mormon, am not required to believe any particular doctrine about the afterlife in order to be Mormon. . .

3) Or maybe, and this is probably it, you meant to say that you, Red, understand Mormon doctrine and to the extent that AKnight or I or anybody else disagrees with you, then we are wrong about Mormon doctrine.

4) We don't know much about exaltation - what you might call deification, but what we do know is that your idea that deified Mormons will be (so we believe) Gods of their own worlds is not LDS doctrine. How do we know that? We checked Red. You can check to.

Quick answers:

1: Actually its happened before where a Mormon I’d be talking to (even a missionary) wouldn’t admit that his church taught something until I quoted from LDS scripture or from a prophet. Usually it tended to be lack of study to be the cause, but then I would have no idea if the were indeed hiding it so as not to give “to much meat” when I should have milk, so to speak. There have simply been many occasions when it turned out that I knew more Mormonism than the Mormon at the time, though it doesn’t look like that will be the situation here of course. But I have not accused you, and you know that. I continually ask to be corrected if I have misrepresented you (though that doesn’t mean I won’t push the issue to make sure my misconception was indeed a misconception), and I even said that I do not want to tell you what you as a Mormon ought to believe (if anything I wish you’d stop learning Mormonism all together…).

2: The issue is not what you believe to make you a Mormon or not but what your scriptures and your prophets teach. And if those teach falsehoods then they are not of God and should be rjected.

3: Hmm, let’s see: I’ve studied Mormonism since August 2002, and you guys have probably lived and breathed it since birth………of I ought to differ to you guys if I’ve got Mormonism wrong! But again, I’m not afraid push an issue in order to find out exactly what Mormons believe.

4: I checked too, and continue to do so (what do you think I’m doing here?)…which leads me to my next post where I’ll show you guys what I’ve been reading and why I think it teaches what I think it teaches.

Until then, God bless!

-Red

[Red]

P.S.

Why do you think that me saying I am a busy college boy imlpies that I think I am a smart college boy? IF ANYTHING I GET TO PAY MONEY TO FIND OUT EXACTLY HOW DUMB I REALLY AM!!! LOL, , I'll miss these days, and all the wonderful insanities of dorm life ("sniffle").

nuf of the mushy stuff!

[Traveler]

Red: There seem to be a large collection of communication errors. It is my impression that you really do not understand LDS doctrine except from an Anti-LDS point of view. Although a few have attempted to inform you that you are wrong; you persist in resisting.

Like the Phrases it would seem that you are willing to judge others before you have heard them. Are you willing to hear our doctrine as we would teach before you declare it wrong? It would seem you came to this forum convinced we are wrong based on our accusers. Did you know that one of Satan's names is accuser? In contrast the name of Jesus is Advocate. Which are you?

Allow me to ask you - how do you determine what is of G-d and what is not of G-d? While you think about this question remember in Luke chapter 4 that Satan was quite willing to quote scripture in an effort to deceive Jesus. Therefore if you believe that the scriptures are the means to determine what is of G-d or not of G-d then Satan has already won you.

The Traveler

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 7 2005, 11:22 PM

But here is what I know about the goal of mormonism (correct me if I misrepresent you guys):

If Mormonism is true, then...

...A handful of your children will become Gods themselves to repeat the cycle.  Yes, you will be growing in glory and in love and fellowship with God,  but is it worth the sin, suffering and death?  Christ died "for the joy that was set before Him," but what real joy or meaning is there in this?  The end result is more death on more worlds, and if Christ died so that more people could become Gods and create worlds with more sin on them then Jesus is a murderer.  If you seek to attian Celestial glory and Godhood then you are a murderer...

Red,

I read your interpretation of Mormonism and I’m curious as to how you came up with this scenario. The cycle you have explained seems reasonable except for the possibility that each world created has the potential of being a world of it’s own with no relationship with other worlds – even Mormons believe in “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” You are assuming that each of these worlds has a connection to all the other worlds and I don’t think that’s part of Mormon doctrine. The scenario that happens on one world may not be the same on a different world; they may choose a different philosophy of good and evil, of life and death. There‘s always the possibility that one of these worlds chooses differently and their Adam and Eve continue to obey God and sin does not exist. The cycle you mention might be the way of Mormonism but I believe the specifics are unknown even to the Mormons themselves. So to accuse the mission that Jesus plays in Mormon doctrine as of being a murderer is unreasonable since you have no way of showing that there is moral connection between all these created worlds. Why would the ransom required on one world have any connection with what may be required on a different world? Why would they have to be connected at all?

M.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 14 2005, 02:32 PM

Snow,

You’re right, I shouldn’t have assumed you’d pick up on the quote from Psalm 51, the was my fault for not specifying, I’m sorry.  However, reread your posts, based on a misunderstanding or not, you crossed the line.  Is that kind of language God honoring in any sense?  Imagine if I actually was someone carrying around that kind of scar!  You failed to display the fruit of the fruit of the spirit.

I am familiar with the verse. You specifically said that you were conceived in sin. So what if it isalso in Psalms. If you did not mean to say that you were conceived in sin, you should not have said that you were conceived in sin. I grant that you may not have meant that your parents were not married when you were conceived but that is just as a reasonable interpretation as what you now say you meant - that your very existence (pre-conversion I suppose) is a sin,

Snow: “First, you say that if Mormonism is true that Mormons will have a serious moral issue. Well, all men sin and so have moral issues but you mean to say that Mormons, by virtue of Mormonism being true, will have serious moral issues as a result of following and adhereing to what we correctly (for the sake of your point) believe is God's will. Frankly I don't believe you can't see the problem with that but if we were to do God's will and God is good then what we do in following God's will would be good. For your illogic to be logical God would have to be something other than good.”

That is exactly my point.  The god who you pray to and follow is not good, and he sure is not mine.  I know my Sheppard, and He is good.  If your god is not good then he either does not exist or is a fallen angel (and is lying about his origin).  I lean towards the latter out of first hand experience. I know the spiritual power and oppression in your church, I have faced it twice before and my Lord has brought me through it and proved Himself stronger.  That’s my testimony, I’ll elaborate if you want, but for now I’ll leave it at that.

Now if Mormonism is true (remember, remember, remember: I separate the “ism” from the “Mormon”) Then God certainly is not good.  He would be a product of a sinful system starting as a man and a participant by creating another world where sin is necessary for having seed and exaltation.  If sin is necessary for that, then we will always be under the power of sin, “redeemed” or not, if sin is simply a necessary part of the system.

However, the God I know never made sin as a necessity—He never made sin at all, it is a perversion of the freedom which He gave us—an abuse if you will.  We at least can agree on that can’t we?  So the God I know remains absolutely good, the author of existence, freedom/choice, love, you name it—all that is good.  Evil is the perversion of good, but God is in the business of redeeming it all.  Something else I’m sure we can agree on is that when God told Adam and Eve (before the fall) to "Be fruitful and multiply,” (Gen 1:28) that he actually meant it—they were capable of doing so in every capacity.  There is no hint at all that sin ought to occur—everything was good (v31)!

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Blah, blah, blah. What a bunch of blarney. I don't think you know what you are talking about. Your testimony is that your God is God and the Mormon God is bad. Your testimony is not worth the 10 bucks you paid to join this message board. It means nothing. There's no logic in it. There's no fact to it and there is no love in it and reading it, I detect no truth nor spirit. I can just as easily say that your brand of religion (the kind where you have to attack other religions to elevate yourself at the expense of other's religion) is oppressive and I do hereby so testify and that you pray to the gorgons of darkness and mayhem. Just like what you said - that too means nothing. What you must do is show that the LDS Church is oppressive or that the LDS notion of God is a bad notion - but you haven't.

Actually you did try to show that your idea of God was good because He didn't create evil and therefore evil is not a necessity. Big deal. Your idea of God did in fact create all things, all physical objects, all energies, all life, all personalities and all the dynamics that are part and parcel of the sin and evil that follow. You can't escape responsibility by creating everything that knowingly and assuredly leads to evil and then say "not my fault - I was just standing here minding my own business and that volcano exploded all by itself and killed 3000 innocent people" or "hey, don't look at me. I know I created that murdering child rapist but I'm just minding my own business, why, er, why it must be somebody else's fault - even though I am a supreme being and all that."

If God is all-good and God is all-knowing and God is all-powerful, then God can stop the evil that he put into place. But he does not. What's up with that?

To say that your idea of God who has created everything including evil is good but the Mormon idea where "there must needs be opposition in all things" is not good is just so much chaff.

Now - you may know a point that you have failed to state - you may have some reasonable argument to make your point, but I doubt it. Theodicy, the problem of evil has remained unsolved, outside of Mormonism, for thousands of years. I don't expect your to solve it anytime soon.

Here's your classical problem: How can needless and innocent suffering exist when there is a powerful, benevolent God who could prevent it. Solve that and then you might have a point about your idea of God. The issue is solved in Mormonism but I won't bother to explain it to you until you solve your half of the equation - since this is your attack, the ball's in your court.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 14 2005, 02:32 PM

Evil is the perversion of good...

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I dispute that.

A tsunami that wipes out 70,000 people is not a perversion of good.

A rapist that brutally rapes a 9 year old girl and then cuts off her arms and legs and leaves her to die - is not a perversion of good.

A father who locks is son in an apartment filled with kerosine and then lights it and leaves his boy to die a firely death is not a perversion of good.

That's evil.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 14 2005, 02:33 PM

 

 

God is also sovereign and if sin and death enter His creation He can and will use it for good.  The suffering of the innocent is actually an example of this, as if God is saying by allowing it to go on, “Do you really think you can do this without Me?”

Well that's one of the standard (and standardly insufficient) solutions to the problem of evil. That God allows evil (the inevitable outcome of his creation) because it is instructive.

Tell me Red. When a savage murderer takes an innocent life, in secret, and tortures and brutalizes that innocent in upspeakable and agonizing ways and then, after the prolonged evil he inflict upon the innocent, he snuff out the life of her/him and buries them and no one ever finds out about it---- who does that instruct? Who learns what from that and is the lesson learned commensurate to the innocent suffering?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 7 2005, 11:22 PM

.................

A handful of your children will become Gods themselves to repeat the cycle.  Yes, you will be growing in glory and in love and fellowship with God,  but is it worth the sin, suffering and death?  Christ died "for the joy that was set before Him," but what real joy or meaning is there in this?  The end result is more death on more worlds, and if Christ died so that more people could become Gods and create worlds with more sin on them then Jesus is a murderer.  If you seek to attian Celestial glory and Godhood then you are a murderer.

........

God Bless,

Red

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Let us take a careful look at the above statement. My poor misguided friend Red. There are many things wrong with your logic. First: G-d is and was G-d before he created. When Genesis says “In the Beginning” G-d already was G-d. As G-d he knew ALL that was to come. He knew it because he planned it so.

During the 6th epoch of creation G-d created man according to Genesis. The ancient Hebrew seems to have slightly different meaning than the modern English interpretation. The ancient Hebrew would have us understand that man was a physical model of G-d himself. In English it is interpreted as “image” and “likeness”. But Genesis goes on in detail of this physical resemblance to indicate that man is copied right down to the maleness and femaleness of the g-ds. As part of this creation of man that copied G-d, Genesis also tells us that G-d placed man in a position of “Dominion” over the earth and every living thing on it. But you, Red witness in your statement that man should not have a dominion over any world because death would make whoever had such a dominion a murderer. But all this that G-d did as we are told of in Genesis is according to G-d’s plan that he knew of, including the outcomes before he even began creation.

Second: G-d knew and planned the details and knew the outcome so that when Adam was placed in Eden G-d knew and planned the outcome. He is the one the placed Adam in Eden without knowledge of good and evil. He planned that the Serpent (Satan) would deceive Adam and Eve and set it up so it could happen and the result was exactly what he knew it would be even before he even began creation. Nothing that happened in Eden was a surprise to G-d. If it was he could not be G-d.

According to your witness - G-d therefore is a murderer. He is the one that set it up and planned it. According to you - G-d is really the one responsible for the death of man. You said it yourself.

However, Red you have not heard the “Good News” or the Gospel. It would appear that no one has explained it to you. I do not have the time or means to explain the Gospel to you - only a part. You see, the truth is that prior to the creation G-d had a great council with his spirit children where he explained his plan to create physical bodies wherein man could experience the good from the evil. He explained his plan to salvage his children from corruption that would come from being exposed to evil. He explained this was necessary before man could understand his righteousness, goodness, mercy and justice. He offered his spiritual children the very freedom that Christ spoke of when the words were spoken, “If you continue in my words then are you my disciple indeed and you will know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” Only G-d is free my poor misguided friend Red. And only when we become a g-d like G-d can we be free as Jesus prophesied. You are mortal and alive today because you chose the path to freedom. But there are others (Satan and his angles) that have rejected the plan of G-d. They plan to prevent your freedom - they plan to deceive you and destroy your gift to know truth and be free - as free as G-d is free.

The Traveler

[Guest mtagain]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 3 2005, 02:00 AM

I thought I would start another one, if there are no objections.

What Salvation are Mormons looking for?

and what Salvation are traditional Christians looking for?

Are either actually attainable?

and what would be the result of attaining it?

Intersting question, I didn't think that there would be more than one salvation.

ready....GO! 

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[Red]

Hello again,

Sorry or for the long absence, but I'm back for now. I'll use this post to show you all what I've been reading in your scriptures and the words of your prophets--to show you why in the world I would think what I think and say what I say about your beliefs. I had hoped I wouldn't have to do this because I didn't want you to feel like I was beating you over the head with your own doctrine. It's probably (well, it is) my fault that I didn't just cite this stuff to begin with, instead of relying on you to be familiar with it--don't take that as a jab, there are many from any faith who are "laymen" and that is just fine. Now of course, if it turns out that I've completely misread these passages which have brought me to my conclusions about your faith then show it, don't imply that I'm stupid, slow, or have a contentious spirit from satan (not for my sake of course, the more persecution the more reward in heaven, but for your for your own sakes--what does anyone prove by slander or how do they edify themselves?). Ok, here goes...

Book of Mormon: 2 Nephi 2:13-25

"13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there

is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say

there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness

there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor

happiness there be no punishment nor misery. . .

it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the

forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being

sweet and the other bitter. . .

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not

have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.

And all things which were created must have remained in the same

state in which they were after they were created; and they must

have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would

have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they

knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him

who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might

have joy."

Pearl of Great Price: Moses 5:10-11

"10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

President Joseph Smith Jr.: King Follet Sermon, 1844

"The scriptures inform us that "This is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being He is,—if he will search diligently his own heart—if the declaration of Jesus and the apostles be true, he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.

My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true, God, and what kind of a being He is. . . for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. . . God himself was Once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. . . it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. . . , then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. . . but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, 302-317)

President Brigham Young: Progress in Knowledge, 1859

"When you can thus feel, then you may begin to think that you can find out something about God, and begin to learn who he is. He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being.

How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation.

It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (E.G. Watt, 7:331)

President Brigham Young: Ogden City, 1870

"If the Scriptures are true,

it proves that sin is in the world, and the question arises, It is

necessary that in should be here? What will the Latter-day Saints say?

Is it necessary that we should know good from evil? I can answer this

to suit myself by saying it is absolutely necessary, for the simple reason

that if we had never realized darkness we never could have comprehended the

light; if we never tasted anything bitter, but were to eat sweets, the honey

and the honeycomb, from the time we come into this world until the time we

go out of it, what knowledge could we have of the bitter? This leads me to

the decision that every fact that exists in this world is demonstrated by

its opposite. . . How many earths are

there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter

composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a

beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually

coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same

experience that we are passing through. Sin is upon every earth that ever

was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let me

know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fullness of

glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and

every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and people thereof, in their

turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals

that we are passing through." (Jornal of Discourses Vol. 14, 71-72)

Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20

". . . and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."

I hope that wasn't too much, but now you ought to see where I'm coming from. All these words point me to the realization that if Mormonism is true then every world that will be created after this one will be doomed to have sin on it. Apparently the teaching is that this is the way it has always been and always will be. In this system it is necessary that there be sin and death along with goodness and life because that seems to be the definition of "opposition in all things." Now, you cannot simply decide that sin and death really are kinda good things because they show us the way to exaltation--that opens the door for justifying almost anything and leaves us with no appeal to God.

These words make God out to be the product and prolonger of the system, but I would that a perfectly good God would do everything He could to stop the proccess, even if only one more soul would be lost. And for every world there will always be one more soul lost in order for sin to come into a world--the tempter will be lost to outer darkness everytime, he is predestined to condemnation. This system relies on the actual doing of sin in order to be prolonged. Sin leads to death, so if God or any of you intend to prolong it you make yourselves into murderers. I don't mean that in malice (what good would that do?), I am trying to persuade you away from these doctrines.

D/C 132:19-20 is a recent discovery for me, it affirms that you will continue to have children if you atttain celestial glory and become a god. Will you keep these children in heavenly innocence forever? If Mormonism is true then you would be a very bad heavenly parent for not letting them progress. So that's the "catch 22," either prolong a sinful cycle or prohibit your children from progression. Both options lead to an injustice, sure one more so than the other, but how is having to choose between two evils joyful? How could you be a good god (or God for that matter) if all you can provide is a choice between two evils? This is not the fulness of joy, this is not what a good God would provide or prolong.

But you guys here's the awesome part: it doesn't have to be like that! I don't get my identity by bringing others down--I am the man who God in the flesh died for! My Abba loves me perfectly, I don't have to strive now to secure some closer position with Him in the afterlife! I am one with Him! Our spirits are meshed together! It is this union I want to share, no one should be denied this gift I have--take it!

We do not need opposition in all things, we not need to sin--why else would God command us to stay so far away from it!? Instead, the only needed for there to be love between God and His creation is Choice. Love is simply done by choice and we all know the verse:

"Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant

or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love does not sin, and what are the two greatest commandments?: Love God and love each other! Does it say anywhere "learn from evil"--No! Sin leads to death and is not necessary for loving, or having a fulness of joy.

Did the God I love know that sin would happen and still make this universe? Yes. Is He responsible for that sin? No. You and I both agree that God gave Adam and Eve (angels included) free will to love Him freely and purely, but the flipside is that if they sinned it would be on their heads, not the God who made them. So sin is the abuse of freedom. They had freedom not to sin, to obey, but didn't and so they died. But God had a plan ready to go and gave them and all mankind a sinful nature in order that He could redeem us all (if we trusted in Him) collectively.

The child molester had freedom not to rape, so he will be judged, and we see first hand the utter waste and futlity of sin. So we ought to appeal to God for salvation from this system, which we add to with every sin, so that it will end completely. What does it say?..."He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." Revelation 21:4. If there will be no death there will be no sin to cause it.

But you as a mormon do not have this hope, because if Mormonism is true you will see death again, and your tears would not cease. Leave behind this god who was once a man and his doctrines. I plead with you to accept the Lord I know in your heart. He is the only true and good God, he has more to give you than we can imagine. Email me if you want to know this God and his hope, [email protected].

In Jesus' Name, Amen.

[john doe]

don't imply that I'm stupid, slow, or have a contentious spirit from satan (not for my sake of course, the more persecution the more reward in heaven, but for your for your own sakes

So, there IS something to be said for doing good works. I thought your contention is that works are of no value in the kingdom of God.

Blah, blah, blah, you're all going to hell for not thinking like me.....blah, blah, blah

But you guys here's the awesome part: it doesn't have to be like that! I don't get my identity by bringing others down--

And yet, isn't that exactly what you're trying to do here?

Leave behind this god who was once a man and his doctrines.

Email me if you want to know this God and his hope, [email protected].

Does that mean you won't be coming back to discuss any of your misunderstandings of the Gospel with us? Okay, have a nice life.

[Snow]

Red,

That's a whole bunch of quoting though I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove.

Here's what you said that I am interested in you justifying"

"And if you exceed all the others in righteousness you will go on to become a God of your own world and populate it with countless children. But the cycle repeats again doesn't it?

You're children will rebel, at least one--the tempter, and you will have to condemn them as sons of perdition. Many others will reject you and harm others because they hate you. You will have to allow one of your own Sons to die as a sacrifice, though he will rise, do you still choose this pain? And many others who try to do good things but become decieved will still find themselves in a paradise without you, who they truly yearned for you in the first place."

Could you please speak to that or did you just make it up?

PS. Are you under the impression that everything that Brigham Young said is considered doctrinal?

If so, can we consider that you believe everything that Pope Gregory the Great and/or Martin Luther said is doctrinally correct and true?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 23 2005, 08:06 PM

But you as a mormon do not have this hope, because if Mormonism is true you will see death again, and your tears would not cease.  Leave behind this god who was once a man and his doctrines.  I plead with you to accept the Lord I know in your heart.  He is the only true and good God, he has more to give you than we can imagine.

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The flaw in your reasoning, Red, is foundational. You approach this dialogue as an exercise in logic and reason. You describe concepts that are to LDS infinite, yet you and we are finite beings. There is the first problem, assuming we can understand everything about God. My good friend Isaiah says as much in Isaiah 55:8-9...God's ways are higher than our ways...miles and miles and stratospheres and atmospheres higher than ours.

That being said, your second flaw is assuming that logic is all that's needed to convince someone of a spiritual truth. The very nature of its being spiritual dictates that its validation be provided in a spiritual way, i.e. a simple prayer and answer, or a life of praying and answering. Quoting a scripture containing an infinite concept (i.e. D&C 132 et al.) and then offering a finite interpretation is sadly lacking persuasive power. Revelation from God is required. What greater witness can we have?

You alluded to "struggling against Mormonism" and being "saved from it by God" or some such thing. Why don't you expand on that. I sense that's really the underlying root of this whole discussion.

Have you read the Book of Mormon? Not just a verse or chapter or section of it, but the whole book? And have you prayed about it? If you can answer yes to both of those, and you still disagree with LDS theology, then that's all there is to it. You can't convince me I didn't receive an answer to my prayers, and I can't convince you that you didn't receive an answer to your prayers.

But one thing to consider in parting, Red...have you ever been hurt by following the clear, official LDS teachings? Has spending Monday night with your family pulled you away from God? Has donating ten percent of your increase to further God's work and help the poor spiritually depleted you? Has checking on a few members of your local congregation every month siphoned away your happiness? There are many more questions I could ask (and they aren't rhetorical, answer them if you wish), but that should suffice for now.

The essence of your posts seems to be that God can't save someone who doesn't understand who He is perfectly, or that tries to do too many good things. That is your point, isn't it? That we LDS worship an incomplete version of your God, that we don't understand who Jesus is? If that's the case, no one is saved, because no finite mind can wrap itself around an infinite idea. Just can't happen.

What kind of a God would refuse to give happiness to someone because they can't understand something beyond their powers of comprehension? That's a question you might think about. I know God, but not perfectly. I know Jesus, but not perfectly. Perfect knowledge of them (and other things like deification) come later, when we are perfected with them. That is the goal...or was Jesus blaspheming when he commanded us to be perfect as God in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48)?

The point, though, is that no amount of scripture and/or obscure non-canonical LDS quotations will change the reality of revelations I've received in my heart while on my knees, over and over again. My hair is brown, I'm 5'10", the Book of Mormon is scripture, God guides the world through living prophets and apostles today, and I will live with Him again if I access the atonement and its grace through obedience to His commandments. These are simple realities to me, and telling me my hair is blonde when it's brown doesn't change that reality for me. Telling me the Book of Mormon is not scripture and that my belief in God is false does not change the reality of my revelations for me.

That is the flaw of any anti-mormon argument. If someone has received a revelation from God confirming the truth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of Christ's church in our day, then no amount of quotes in the world can change that.

It's absurd really, if you think about it. What you're saying in reality is: "LeGrand, you believe <insert controversial doctrine> is true, but because of <insert anti-mormon argument>, it can't be true. So you really never did get an answer from God, can't you see?"

An intellectual argument cannot CHANGE a spiritual experience. But a spiritual experience CAN change an intellectual argument.

In the end, you need to share with us how you were scarred (not scared) by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For every thousand hacking at the leaves, there is one hacking at the roots of the issue. We've hacked enough leaves, let's address the roots now. We know WHAT your position is in relation to LDS teachings. You believe we're wrong (and damned).

Tell us HOW that became your position...what event/s involving the LDS church required that God "save you" from it? This will ultimately foster more understanding than all of our posts put together. So if it's not too personal, let's get down to it...what happened?

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 23 2005, 09:04 PM

That being said, your second flaw is assuming that logic is all that's needed to convince someone of a spiritual truth. The very nature of its being spiritual dictates that its validation be provided in a spiritual way, i.e. a simple prayer and answer, or a life of praying and answering. Quoting a scripture containing an infinite concept (i.e. D&C 132 et al.) and then offering a finite interpretation is sadly lacking persuasive power. Revelation from God is required. What greater witness can we have?

Spiritual experiences confirm only what you want to confirm. People die, and some see Jesus, others Krishna. It's who ever you want it to be.

You get a warm fuzzy, and you think it's a confirmation of the Book of Mormon, I get a warm fuzzy, and it confirms something else.

Again, spiritual experiences are generally neutral, we are the ones responsible in assigning meaning.

But one thing to consider in parting, Red...have you ever been hurt by following the clear, official LDS teachings? Has spending Monday night with your family pulled you away from God?

no.

Has donating ten percent of your increase to further God's work and help the poor spiritually depleted you?

Hard to have the spirit when you're worried about making ends meet. Then again, just do what most do in Utah and file Chapter 11. Heck, that's another record for the Beehive state.

Has checking on a few members of your local congregation every month siphoned away your happiness?

It could.

There are many more questions I could ask (and they aren't rhetorical, answer them if you wish), but that should suffice for now.

How about not seeing your own father nearly every sunday for several years do to some stake calling? How does that make your family closer LeGrand? Especially when that father works the other six days of the week from early morning to late at night? How great is that on children?

That is the flaw of any anti-mormon argument. If someone has received a revelation from God confirming the truth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of Christ's church in our day, then no amount of quotes in the world can change that.

Im evidence that it can. I received powerfull witnesses of the BoM and the LDS Church. Ultimately it was the greater power of Reason that brought me out of Mormonism. Im very grateful today for that.

An intellectual argument cannot CHANGE a spiritual experience. But a spiritual experience CAN change an intellectual argument.

Don't know too many ex-mormons, eh LeGrand?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 24 2005, 12:49 AM

How about not seeing your own father nearly every sunday for several years do to some stake calling?  How does that make your family closer LeGrand?  Especially when that father works the other six days of the week from early morning to late at night?  How great is that on children?

It depends on the family. We are to give what we can, mentally and emotionally. My father has served on the Stake High Council for years and is now Stake Executive Secretary as of a few months ago so your question is very apt, and I can say that service is never easy and that's why there ARE home teachers/visiting teachers, etc... but I'm not trying to convince you because you know more about it than most on this board (not being sarcastic). I just wanted to respond to that.

I received powerfull witnesses of the BoM and the LDS Church.  Ultimately it was the greater power of Reason that brought me out of Mormonism.  Im very grateful today for that.

This is my point...we each of us interpret our experiences according to our personal standards or truth/error. There are many ex-mormons, and there are many ex-anti-mormons. Just want you to know Red that your arguments aren't going to change what experiences I've had in my quest for truth.

Don't know too many ex-mormons, eh LeGrand?

Sure do. I'm not going to tell you what you felt or didn't feel, that's just stupid and insulting. However, my point was that our experiences don't change. Perhaps how much we value them or what we think of them, but the sole presence of a logical argument for me cannot erase the confirmation of the Spirit whether a "warm fuzzy" or indescribable peace of the soul. But I do appreciate you pointing out the other side Jason, making this discussion rounded.

←

[Jason]

LeGrand,

I appreciate your civil reply.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Laureltree@Oct 8 2005, 12:10 PM

I like the questions in the thread, Ray I would read a little more on mormonism....in a few areas. ApostleKnight...Very nicely stated and thank you for correcting the mistake, without rudely correcting the person. I know Im living my life for the lord...I'm not a murder and neither is he......and neither are mormons....and that I'm grateful for.

←

Thank you for the advice, Laureltree, and FYI, I have a habit of reading about "Mormonism" almost daily.

And btw, if you were trying to say there is something I don't know about "Mormonism" yet, I'm sure you're right, and hopefully someday we'll both know everything.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 23 2005, 06:06 PM

Hello again,

Sorry or for the long absence, but I'm back for now.  I'll use this post to show you all what I've been reading in your scriptures and the words of your prophets--to show you why in the world I would think what I think and say what I say about your beliefs.  I had hoped I wouldn't have to do this because I didn't want you to feel like I was beating you over the head with your own doctrine.  It's probably (well, it is) my fault that I didn't just cite this stuff to begin with, instead of relying on you to be familiar with it--don't take that as a jab, there are many from any faith who are "laymen" and that is just fine.  Now of course, if it turns out that I've completely misread these passages which have brought me to my conclusions about your faith then show it, don't imply that I'm stupid, slow, or have a contentious spirit from satan (not for my sake of course, the more persecution the more reward in heaven, but for your for your own sakes--what does anyone prove by slander or how do they edify themselves?).  Ok, here goes...

Book of Mormon: 2 Nephi 2:13-25

"13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there

is no sin.  If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say

there is no righteousness.  And if there be no righteousness

there be no happiness.  And if there be no righteousness nor

happiness there be no punishment nor misery. . .

it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the

forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being

sweet and the other bitter. . .

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not

have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.

And all things which were created must have remained in the same

state in which they were after they were created; and they must

have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would

have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they

knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him

who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might

have joy."

Pearl of Great Price: Moses 5:10-11

"10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

  11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

President Joseph Smith Jr.: King Follet Sermon, 1844

"The scriptures inform us that "This is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

    If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being He is,—if he will search diligently his own heart—if the declaration of Jesus and the apostles be true, he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.

    My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true, God, and what kind of a being He is. . .  for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. . . God himself was Once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. . . it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. . . , then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. . . but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, 302-317)

President Brigham Young: Progress in Knowledge, 1859

"When you can thus feel, then you may begin to think that you can find out something about God, and begin to learn who he is. He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being.

How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation.

It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (E.G. Watt, 7:331)

President Brigham Young: Ogden City, 1870

"If the Scriptures are true,

it proves that sin is in the world, and the question arises, It is

necessary that in should be here? What will the Latter-day Saints say?

Is it necessary that we should know good from evil? I can answer this

to suit myself by saying it is absolutely necessary, for the simple reason

that if we had never realized darkness we never could have comprehended the

light; if we never tasted anything bitter, but were to eat sweets, the honey

and the honeycomb, from the time we come into this world until the time we

go out of it, what knowledge could we have of the bitter? This leads me to

the decision that every fact that exists in this world is demonstrated by

its opposite. . . How many earths are

there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter

composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a

beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually

coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same

experience that we are passing through. Sin is upon every earth that ever

was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let me

know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fullness of

glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and

every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and people thereof, in their

turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals

that we are passing through." (Jornal of Discourses Vol. 14, 71-72)

Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20

". . . and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

  20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." 

I hope that wasn't too much, but now you ought to see where I'm coming from.  All these words point me to the realization that if Mormonism is true then every world that will be created after this one will be doomed to have sin on it.  Apparently the teaching is that this is the way it has always been and always will be.  In this system it is necessary that there be sin and death along with goodness and life because that seems to be the definition of "opposition in all things."  Now, you cannot simply decide that sin and death really are kinda good things because they show us the way to exaltation--that opens the door for justifying almost anything and leaves us with no appeal to God. 

These words make God out to be the product and prolonger of the system, but I would that a perfectly good God would do everything He could to stop the proccess, even if only one more soul would be lost.  And for every world there will always be one more soul lost in order for sin to come into a world--the tempter will be lost to outer darkness everytime, he is predestined to condemnation.  This system relies on the actual doing of sin in order to be prolonged.  Sin leads to death, so if God or any of you intend to prolong it you make yourselves into murderers.  I don't mean that in malice (what good would that do?), I am trying to persuade you away from these doctrines. 

D/C 132:19-20 is a recent discovery for me, it affirms that you will continue to have children if you atttain celestial glory and become a god.  Will you keep these children in heavenly innocence forever?  If Mormonism is true then you would be a very bad heavenly parent for not letting them progress.  So that's the "catch 22," either prolong a sinful cycle or prohibit your children from progression.  Both options lead to an injustice, sure one more so than the other, but how is having to choose between two evils joyful?  How could you be a good god (or God for that matter) if all you can provide is a choice between two evils?  This is not the fulness of joy, this is not what a good God would provide or prolong.

But you guys here's the awesome part:  it doesn't have to be like that!  I don't get my identity by bringing others down--I am the man who God in the flesh died for!  My Abba loves me perfectly, I don't have to strive now to secure some closer position with Him in the afterlife!  I am one with Him!  Our spirits are meshed together!  It is this union I want to share, no one should be denied this gift I have--take it! 

We do not need opposition in all things, we not need to sin--why else would God command us to stay so far away from it!?  Instead, the only needed for there to be love between God and His creation is Choice.  Love is simply done by choice and we all know the verse:

"Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant

  or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

  it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

  Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

  Love never ends." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love does not sin, and what are the two greatest commandments?: Love God and love each other!  Does it say anywhere "learn from evil"--No!  Sin leads to death and is not necessary for loving, or having a fulness of joy. 

Did the God I love know that sin would happen and still make this universe?  Yes.  Is He responsible for that sin?  No.  You and I both agree that God gave Adam and Eve (angels included) free will to love Him freely and purely, but the flipside is that if they sinned it would be on their heads, not the God who made them.  So sin is the abuse of freedom.  They had freedom not to sin, to obey, but didn't and so they died.  But God had a plan ready to go and gave them and all mankind a sinful nature in order that He could redeem us all (if we trusted in Him) collectively.

The child molester had freedom not to rape, so he will be judged, and we see first hand the utter waste and futlity of sin.  So we ought to appeal to God for salvation from this system, which we add to with every sin, so that it will end completely.  What does it say?..."He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." Revelation 21:4.  If there will be no death there will be no sin to cause it. 

But you as a mormon do not have this hope, because if Mormonism is true you will see death again, and your tears would not cease.  Leave behind this god who was once a man and his doctrines.  I plead with you to accept the Lord I know in your heart.  He is the only true and good God, he has more to give you than we can imagine.  Email me if you want to know this God and his hope,  [email protected].

In Jesus' Name, Amen.

←

The writings you quoted from people whom I, personally, sustain as prophets of God are all right and true, as far as I am concerned, and I, personally, accept those writings as writings which were inspired by God, aka scripture, but the statements that you made concerning your understanding of what those people said and meant is a compilation of the philosophies of some other men, including your own philosophies, mingled with the writings of those people whom I accept as prophets of God, and I, personally, consider the statements you made concerning your understanding of the writings of those people whom I accept as prophets of God to be in error.

And since I would probably need to write a book, or at least a small pamphlet, to explain all of what I perceive to be errors in your reasoning, or the reasoning you espouse, and I have no real desire to write a book or pamphlet right now, I’ll simply recommend that you study and read some more writings from the people whom I, personally, sustain as prophets of God, as well as some other books or writings which have been written by some other people that I, personally, sustain as prophets of God, until you arrive at my level of understanding.

And btw, to help you know a little bit more about me and where I am coming from, I’ll inform you that I, personally, sustain as prophets of God every person who has ever been a President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well as some other people who are or who were once members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, as well as many other people who are now scattered throughout the organization of the Church or kingdom of God in both time and eternity, and I do so because the Spirit of God has testified to me, personally, that those people are indeed prophets of God and my Lord Jesus Christ.

[Red]

Thank you for responding Apostleknight,

You've always sounded like the most reasonable one here and will I definitely post again in the next few days as I have time.

The heart of the matter is hope, not ideologies.

I do not doubt for one second that you or any mormon, or even Joseph Smith himself has recieved a revelation from some source; just like I would be a fool to doubt that Muhammed met an angelic being in that cave. As a Christian who believes in the reality of spiritual warfare these things should be no surprise to me.

This is not a question of "what we think about God." I happen to think that God has a sacastic sense of humor--what!? You don't agree with me!!?? Yer goin to hell!!!! GRR! ARGH!!!......umm, no its not about that.

Instead, the question is "which God are we praying to/which one is true?" You have to understand the Christian mind here: we say He is spirit and that he was always God, you say He is a man, who was once like us but is now exalted. Correct me if I'm wrong, but every mormon I've ever talked to has told me that.

Do you see how these are two completely different Gods? Its like the difference between YHWH and Baal, the sun and the moon, Jack and Jill.

Also, as I read the Book of Mormon (still a work in progress) the D/C, and the Pearl of Great Price (actually finished that) I begin to see a different "character" of the God in those words than the God I know personally. By "character" I mean the sum total of what you do and say.

As for my testimony, of course it is not personal at all, I'd be glad to share it. I do not write you guys out of hate and malice, but out of sincere warning in love. You are my calling.

I'll hopefully post again Thursday night, but if not, then Saturday.

God Bless you all

-Red

[Lindy]

Hello Red~

Just MY two cents here.....

I know a lot of posters on this board have gone over these things many, many times, and it's always a nice challenge when another one comes up to greet us!

A lot of discussions about YOUR God - MY God.

What about the universal ONE GOD? The one we see the way we see, the one you see the way you see, the one the Indians see, the one the Muslims see, the "power" the agnostics believe in?

Why can't people just allow others to believe in the way they see best for themself? I think we all have one ultimate goal in life....to return to our Creator, who ever or whatever we believe Him to be. Sure we try to enlighten others along the way, but I don't think I have ever told one of my non LDS friends that they are WRONG for what they believe. To WARN them? I hope I don't do that. Hey guys (and gals)......let me know if I stoop that low ok?

I told someone once that I believe that our journey to heaven is like we are going to meet up on top of the same mountain. Some of us will take the cross country adventure route others will find a well worn path and follow that one to feel safer, still others will meander around and around and around losing their way after every 4th turn in the path they chose to take, and some might leave the mountain completely after giving up trying to find their way. There will be those who will take longer to reach the top, some will have bumps and bruises, others might make it all the way up in record time with out breaking a sweat. Does that make any of the paths chosen the wrong route? It leads to the same peak at the top. But everyone had a different view of that same peak from the path they chose to take. And everyone who made it to the top accomplished their goal... it didn't matter how they got there, they got there.

And that took hard work on everyones part. No one looked down on the other, they all congratulated each other for making it.

The end......:)

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Lindy@Oct 26 2005, 12:55 AM

Hello Red~

Just MY two cents here.....

I know a lot of posters on this board have gone over these things many, many times, and it's always a nice challenge when another one comes up to greet us!

A lot of discussions about  YOUR God - MY God.

What about the universal ONE GOD? The one we see the way we see, the one you see the way you see, the one the Indians see, the one the Muslims see,  the "power" the agnostics believe in?

Why can't people just allow others to believe in the way they see best for themself?  I think we all have one ultimate goal in life....to return to our Creator, who ever or whatever we believe Him to be.  Sure we try to enlighten others along the way, but I don't think I have ever told one of my non LDS friends that they are WRONG for what they believe. To WARN them? I hope I don't do that. Hey guys (and gals)......let me know if I stoop that low ok?

I told someone once that I believe that our journey to heaven is like we are going to meet up on top of the same mountain. Some of us will take the cross country adventure route others will find a well worn path and follow that one to feel safer, still others will meander around and around and around losing their way after every 4th turn in the path they chose to take, and some might  leave the mountain completely after giving up trying to find their way. There will be those who will take longer to reach the top, some will have bumps and bruises, others might make it all the way up in record time with out breaking a sweat.  Does that make any of the paths chosen the wrong route? It leads to the same peak at the top.  But everyone had a different view of that same peak from the path they chose to take. And everyone who made it to the top accomplished their goal... it didn't matter how they got there, they got there.

And that took hard work on everyones part. No one looked down on the other, they all congratulated each other for making it.

The end......:)

←

Very well said Lindy. :)

[Ray]

Red: The heart of the matter is hope, not ideologies.

Ray: I believe our personal ideology has a lot to do with what we hope for.

Red: I do not doubt for one second that you or any mormon, or even Joseph Smith himself has received a revelation from some source; just like I would be a fool to doubt that Muhammed met an angelic being in that cave. As a Christian who believes in the reality of spiritual warfare these things should be no surprise to me.

Ray: Okay.

Red: This is not a question of "what we think about God." I happen to think that God has a sarcastic sense of humor--what!? You don't agree with me!!?? Yer goin to hell!!!! GRR! ARGH!!!......umm, no its not about that.

Instead, the question is "which God are we praying to/which one is true?" You have to understand the Christian mind here: we say He is spirit and that he was always God, you say He is a man, who was once like us but is now exalted. Correct me if I'm wrong, but every mormon I've ever talked to has told me that.

Ray: You are correct. That is what we [LDS] say, and that is what I know to be true.

Red: Do you see how these are two completely different Gods? It’s like the difference between YHWH and Baal, the sun and the moon, Jack and Jill.

Ray: I once would say that we [LDS] and other people worship a different God, but now I say that we [LDS] and other people have different ideas about the God we worship. Or in other words, with God defined as the most supreme being in all of existence, there is and can only be one true God, and we are either correct in our individual knowledge of Him, or we aren’t.

Red: Also, as I read the Book of Mormon (still a work in progress) the D/C, and the Pearl of Great Price (actually finished that) I begin to see a different "character" of the God in those words than the God I know personally. By "character" I mean the sum total of what you do and say.

Ray: The world is filled with many people who have a different understanding about who or what is God, and we [LDS] collectively understand God to be different than many other people understand God to be. You are simply saying that you have noticed some differences between the way we [LDS] “see” God and the way you and other people “see” Him, and I am happy to see that you are capable of noticing those differences without resorting to hatred or fear.

Red: As for my testimony, of course it is not personal at all, I'd be glad to share it. I do not write you guys out of hate and malice, but out of sincere warning in love. You are my calling.

Ray: I’ll assume that you meant that your testimony is not too personal for you to share with others, and I feel the same way about my testimony, to a certain degree. But there are some things that I know that I wouldn’t share with you or some other people, because I know that you and some other people aren’t ready to hear some of the things that I could say about some of the things I know. But I do enjoy sharing what I feel I can share with others, hoping they will someday be able to enjoy everything that I enjoy by knowing what I know.

And btw, to carry over a thought from another thread:

knowing something is true won’t save us unless we use that knowledge to our benefit, so our desire to righteously use our knowledge should override our desire to acquire more knowledge than we need to be saved.

Or in other words, I believe God is more interested in how we live our lives, based on what we know or believe to be true, than He is interested in how much we know, so, borrowing a thought from Lindy, we should all simply try to make it to the top of the mountain where we will find the Lord’s house.

And btw, Lindy, if I had an opportunity to talk to somebody I saw going the wrong way on their journey to the top of the mountain, meaning the long way, I would let them know there is a better and shorter way to get to the top, just in case they were mainly interested in getting to the top instead of sight seeing, which might distract them enough to keep them from ever making it to the top.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 26 2005, 10:16 AM

And btw, Lindy, if I had an opportunity to talk to somebody I saw going the wrong way on their journey to the top of the mountain, meaning the long way, I would let them know there is a better and shorter way to get to the top, just in case they were mainly interested in getting to the top instead of sight seeing, which might distract them enough to keep them from ever making it to the top.

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Ray, I think that is what we are all supposed to do, help those walking about aimlessly without a clue how to make it up to the top; by pointing out the right path for them.... It might NOT be the right path for us, but the right one for them.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Oct 25 2005, 06:50 PM

Thank you for responding Apostleknight,

You've always sounded like the most reasonable one here and will I definitely post again in the next few days as I have time.

The heart of the matter is hope, not ideologies. 

I do not doubt for one second that you or any mormon, or even Joseph Smith himself has recieved a revelation from some source; just like I would be a fool to doubt that Muhammed met an angelic being in that cave.  As a Christian who believes in the reality of spiritual warfare these things should be no surprise to me.

This is not a question of "what we think about God."  I happen to think that God has a sacastic sense of humor--what!?  You don't agree with me!!?? Yer goin to hell!!!! GRR! ARGH!!!......umm, no its not about that.

Instead, the question is "which God are we praying to/which one is true?"  You have to understand the Christian mind here: we say He is spirit and that he was always God, you say He is a man, who was once like us but is now exalted.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but every mormon I've ever talked to has told me that. 

Do you see how these are two completely different Gods?  Its like the difference between YHWH and Baal, the sun and the moon, Jack and Jill.

Also, as I read the Book of Mormon (still a work in progress) the D/C, and the Pearl of Great Price (actually finished that) I begin to see a different "character" of the God in those words than the God I know personally.  By "character" I mean the sum total of what you do and say.

As for my testimony, of course it is not personal at all, I'd be glad to share it.  I do not write you guys out of hate and malice, but out of sincere warning in love.  You are my calling.

I'll hopefully post again Thursday night, but if not, then Saturday.

God Bless you all

-Red

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I guess this means you are refusing to justify making this statement (despite having been challenged on it a number of times:

"And if you exceed all the others in righteousness you will go on to become a God of your own world and populate it with countless children. But the cycle repeats again doesn't it?"

[Ray]

Originally posted by Lindy+Oct 26 2005, 06:31 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 26 2005, 10:16 AM

And btw, Lindy, if I had an opportunity to talk to somebody I saw going the wrong way on their journey to the top of the mountain, meaning the long way, I would let them know there is a better and shorter way to get to the top, just in case they were mainly interested in getting to the top instead of sight seeing, which might distract them enough to keep them from ever making it to the top.

←

Ray, I think that is what we are all supposed to do, help those walking about aimlessly without a clue how to make it up to the top; by pointing out the right path for them.... It might NOT be the right path for us, but the right one for them.

←

I only advise people to follow the path that I know will get me there, figuring that if it got me there, and continues to get me there, it should also get someone else there. I have no idea about how to advise people to follow a path that I have never taken before or that I don't personally know will work.