Chai Tea

[sixpacktr]

I think that we as humans like to have a definitive answer as to the whys of something. In effect, we're all 2 year olds that have learned that most annoying of questions: why? The simple reason is 'because I said so'. It isn't the caffeine, the tannins, the color, the aroma, that mouthwatering sweetness or deliciousness of it.....sorry, I digressed. Our HF doesn't have to give us reasons why or why not. We simply are commanded to obey. Then we have a choice: do I or don't I?

As for which teas are 'good' and which are 'bad', I'll go with what I learned many many years ago in Japan. Tea leaves are bad. We aren't to drink drinks made, dunked, saturated, steeped, boiled or chilled with them. In Japan you will not hold a TR if you drink them, which include green, brown, black, oolong, chai and a myriad other teas made with tea leaves. Other teas, such as buckwheat tea (a personal favorite) and other herbal teas that are made from things OTHER than tea leaves are okay (unless, of course, you are drinking 'crack tea'). Check your label if in doubt.

The Prophet Joseph was counseled in the D&C that there would be conspiring men in the last days that would try to make money doing things that aren't for our benefit. I remember when I was at BYU many, many years ago when wine coolers first came out how some of the people there drank them because they thought it wasn't 'really' wine. Huh?? This is the same type of justifying, IMO. We need to be vigilant, and not LOOK for ways around what we've been commanded.

My hope is that the tea restriction will be lifted in the CK. I plan on making up for my time here by having sweet tea ALL of the time....

[RachelleDrew]

Margin, that is REALLY cool information. On another note, sweet tea six? EWWWWWW.

We are selling sweet tea at McDonald's and it's awful. I drank someone's by accident when I grabbed the wrong cup and thought I was drinking my diet coke. One jug of sweet tea has an entire package of sugar in it. It's foul.

[Questionable]

Just as an aside, a lot of hot drinks in China and other parts of Asia are called "tea" even though they aren't actually tea, and there is nothing "tea" about them.

[sixpacktr]

Margin, that is REALLY cool information. On another note, sweet tea six? EWWWWWW.

We are selling sweet tea at McDonald's and it's awful. I drank someone's by accident when I grabbed the wrong cup and thought I was drinking my diet coke. One jug of sweet tea has an entire package of sugar in it. It's foul.

Miss Rachel,

It is just obvious that you didn't drink good sweet tea. It only had ONE package of sugar in it?

No wonder it was foul....

[wildbean98]

This is your interpretation of the Word of Wisdom. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but I will say it is inappropriate to say that this is the interpretation of the Word of Wisdom.

I take issue with the bold statement unless you can provide references from the leaders of the Church that support what you say. As far as I'm aware, the only clarification on the Word of Wisdom that involves tea is that "hot drinks" are interpreted as "coffee and tea." I'd welcome any authoritative statements you could provide to support your assertion.

What people are getting tripped up on are definitions here.

Tea is defined as a drink made by boiling the leaves of the Camellia sinensis plant. If it's not made from that plant then it is not tea.

The term "herbal tea" is a misnomer. The actual name for drinks made from plants other than Camellia sinensis is "tisane", or "ptisan." Calling those drinks "herbal tea" is incorrect because they are not tea. We just use that term because it's convenient and very few people know about the word "tisane."

We have been told, and it has been covered in Ensign and other places, that we shouldn't drink "tea" but other drinks like "herbal teas" are acceptable. They could have used the word "tisane" but nobody would know what they were talking about.

D&C 89:

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

This scripture tells us that "herbal teas" are good for us, as long as the plant is wholesome. I imagine hemlock or foxglove would probably not be considered wholesome.

The WoW is actually pretty clear and specific about what you can consume and what you can't. The problem isn't with interpreting what the Prophet has told us, but with understanding definitions in the english language.

[beefche]

Can I break out my English major here?

"Tea" is an actual plant--red, black, white, green, etc.

"Infusion" is steeping any herb or plant in hot water to release it's flavor.

Therefore, "herbal teas" are actually "herbal infusions." If the actual ingredient list contains anything with "tea" in it, then it's a tea. If the ingredient list does not list any plant with "tea" in it, it's actually an infusion and just packaged as "tea."

Also, "chai" is a foreign word (Russian, Bulgarian, and other languages use this word) that actually means "tea." English speakers have adopted that word and placed it with "tea." When one says, "chai tea" they are actually saying "tea tea."

[wildbean98]

...and people say an english degree is useless.....

Red tea is the confusing one because it refers to different things depending on where in the world you are. Some areas of Asia refer to black tea as red tea. You just have to look at the ingredients to see whether it's actual tea or some other plant like rooibos.

[beefche]

...and people say an english degree is useless.....

Hey! No poking fun at the English major....I'm speaking it very well after studying it for 4.7 years. Now, do you want fries with that burger?

[wildbean98]

I dated an english major for 3 years. She would correct my love notes and give them back, no joke. On the positive side I learned more about english from her than I did from school so I guess it worked out in my favor in the end.

[MarginOfError]

What people are getting tripped up on are definitions here.

Tea is defined as a drink made by boiling the leaves of the Camellia sinensis plant. If it's not made from that plant then it is not tea.

The term "herbal tea" is a misnomer. The actual name for drinks made from plants other than Camellia sinensis is "tisane", or "ptisan." Calling those drinks "herbal tea" is incorrect because they are not tea. We just use that term because it's convenient and very few people know about the word "tisane."

I really don't care what the definitions are. You claimed "Only black, green, white, and oolong teas are covered by the WoW," and "The authorities have been pretty specific about which teas are bad and which ones are okay to drink." I'm just asking you to provide supporting documentation.

But let me give you some direction of what you might do

I went to lds.org and searched the gospel library. On my various results I came up with the following results

Search Phrase: green tea

42 results, none of which pair the words "green" and "tea" together.

Search Phrase: "green tea"

2 results--actually the same article in two magazines--it's a story of a missionary experience in which he turns down tea and is told "green teas is good for you."

Search Phrase: black tea

46 results, none of which tie "black" and "tea" together.

Search Phrase: "black tea"

0 results

Search Phrase: herbal tea

9 results: 2 discuss stories in which members say they have consumed herbal tea; one in which a doctor states that you should inform your physician of any herbal teas you use before accepting new medication, and comments on a link between herbal teas and esophogeal cancers--she even says that herbal teas shouldn't replace healthier drinks; and one in the Friend in a cross word puzzle that ties "An Herbal Drink" to "Tea".

Search Phrase: "herbal tea"

2 results...appeared in the search immediately above.

None of these sources, however, definitively and authoritatively make the claim that black and green teas are bad and herbal teas are okay.

We have been told, and it has been covered in Ensign and other places, that we shouldn't drink "tea" but other drinks like "herbal teas" are acceptable. They could have used the word "tisane" but nobody would know what they were talking about.

I do not know of any authoritative reference that supports this statement. Again, if you have one, please share it.

D&C 89:

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

This scripture tells us that "herbal teas" are good for us, as long as the plant is wholesome. I imagine hemlock or foxglove would probably not be considered wholesome.

Let's go ahead and include the verses that immediate precede the ones you quoted.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

What the original text of the scripture tells us, if taken by the literal definition of the words, is that wholesome herbs are good for us so long as they are not infused into a hot drink. The revelation required clarification because relying on the literal definitions of the words wasn't enough.

And then even by your own admission, "herbal tea" isn't specific enough anyway, because it has to be a "wholesome herb." Given that admission, it seems silly to say "herbal teas are okay" because now it's a matter of which herb. And the word of wisdom certainly doesn't specify which herbs are wholesome and which are not (with the obvious exception of tobacco).

The WoW is actually pretty clear and specific about what you can consume and what you can't. The problem isn't with interpreting what the Prophet has told us, but with understanding definitions in the english language.

Quite the contrary, the Word of Wisdom is incredibly vague about what we can consume and what we can't. In the past, relying on definitions hasn't been enough and prophetic counsel and clarification was needed to clarify the intent of the original message. I'm not sure where we get the authority to state that it's any different now.

Again, I neither agree nor disagree with the interpretation you presented. I entirely do not care. But you cannot make statements like "Only black, green, white, and oolong teas are covered by the WoW." and "The authorities have been pretty specific about which teas are bad and which ones are okay to drink." unless you can provide the references to back them up. To do otherwise is to falsely represent the teachings of the Church.

[wildbean98]

You're arguing semantics now.

If you don't care about definitions then it will be impossible for you to understand the instructions we have been given. Because the use of the word "tea" has been convoluted in modern english you must understand what the words actually mean, since you will not get the actual meanings from regular conversational english.

There is only one plant called a tea plant. All tea is made from that plant. Tea is the common name for the plant. The scientific name is Camellia sinensis.

When you look at a list of ingredients, you rarely will see just the word "tea" by itself, nor will you see the actual name Camellia sinensis. What you will usually see are the four main types of tea: black tea, green tea, white tea, and oolong tea.

It doesn't matter whether you use the term "tea", "Camellia Sinensis", "black tea", or "green tea", they are all the same thing. When I listed the four main types of tea my intention was to help others identify tea in a list of ingredients. Rarely will ingredients say just "tea" and rarely will they use the scientific name.

I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.' "

-The Word of Wisdom: A Modern Interpretation (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1937)

Although the revelation of the Word of Wisdom was received on 27 February 1833, its acceptance by the individual members of the Church was gradual. On 9 September 1851, some eighteen years after it was given, the Patriarch to the Church, John Smith, delivered a talk to the Saints on the Word of Wisdom. Following his address, President Brigham Young arose and proposed to the general conference that all Saints formally covenant to abstain from tea, coffee, tobacco, whiskey, and "all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom" ("Minutes of the General Conference," Millennial Star, 1 Feb. 1852, p.35). The motion was accepted unanimously and became binding as a commandment for all Church members thereafter.

-Doctrine & Covenants, Student Manual (Institute), p. 207

It has been made very clear that we should not consume drinks made with tea. Just because some people call a drink by the wrong word does not mean there is any confusion in what the prophets have told us.

"Can I get a coke?"

"Sure, what kind?"

"I'll have a Sprite."

So if the Prophet said coke was against the WoW, would you then argue that we also couldn't drink sprite?

Edited October 30, 2009 by wildbean98

[Elphaba]

I dated an english major for 3 years. She would correct my love notes and give them back, no joke. On the positive side I learned more about english from her than I did from school so I guess it worked out in my favor in the end.

I'm going to be your girlfriend for a minute and tell you English is capitalized. :)

Elphaba

[hordak]

-The Word of Wisdom: A Modern Interpretation (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1937)

Is that the same one that says hot breads,(griddle cakes, waffles, rolls, biscuits or buns) shouldn't be eaten by kids under 14?

[Saguaro]

The motion was accepted unanimously and became binding as a commandment for all Church members thereafter.

Not to threadjack here, but I find this statement somewhat inaccurate. The enforcement of the word of wisdom has not always been as strict as it is today especially during the the 1800's until around the turn of the 20th century.

Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom

[Moksha]

Not to threadjack here, but I find this statement somewhat inaccurate. The enforcement of the word of wisdom has not always been as strict as it is today especially during the the 1800's until around the turn of the 20th century.

Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom

Seem to remember it was made a Temple requirement around 1923.

Things sure have changed from a set of rules to keep tobacco spittle and whiskey bottles off the floor of the Red Brick Store after late night meetings.

[MarginOfError]

You're arguing semantics now.

Well, actually, I haven't been. That's what you've been doing. But if it makes you feel any better, I'll argue semantics and point out that you're the one who is intent on focusing on the definition of the word "tea." So by the definition of arguing semantics, it is you that is arguing semantics (and now me as well).

Urban Dictionary: Semantics

If you don't care about definitions then it will be impossible for you to understand the instructions we have been given. Because the use of the word "tea" has been convoluted in modern english you must understand what the words actually mean, since you will not get the actual meanings from regular conversational english.

But you leave unanswered the question of what the speaker's intent was when he said "tea." How are we to know if he meant the dictionary definition of tea and not the colloquial definition of tea? You are retrospectively interpreting the meaning of a statement by applying a literal definition and then stating that your interpretation is official Church policy. In essence, you're saying, "This is God's interpretation because the dictionary said so." Am I the only one that sees the incredible irony in such an approach?

There is only one plant called a tea plant. All tea is made from that plant. Tea is the common name for the plant. The scientific name is Camellia sinensis.

If all tea is made from Camellia sinesis. Except for herbal tea. But that isn't actually tea. So MOE should stop arguing semantics.

When you look at a list of ingredients, you rarely will see just the word "tea" by itself, nor will you see the actual name Camellia sinensis. What you will usually see are the four main types of tea: black tea, green tea, white tea, and oolong tea.

It doesn't matter whether you use the term "tea", "Camellia Sinensis", "black tea", or "green tea", they are all the same thing. When I listed the four main types of tea my intention was to help others identify tea in a list of ingredients. Rarely will ingredients say just "tea" and rarely will they use the scientific name.

That's a very useful piece of information if that's what the Church's official policy is. I'll be sure to pass it on as soon as you provide a reference to verify your claim that this is the true interpretation of the Word of Wisdom.

I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.' "

-The Word of Wisdom: A Modern Interpretation (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1937)

Again, that generic use of the word tea. With no semantics attached to it, how am I supposed to know what that really means? In the absence of any official interpretation from the Church, an individual may only come up with his or her own interpretation. But whatever that interpretation is, it is still only his or her own interpretation and not the officially sanctioned interpretation of the Church.

Although the revelation of the Word of Wisdom was received on 27 February 1833, its acceptance by the individual members of the Church was gradual. On 9 September 1851, some eighteen years after it was given, the Patriarch to the Church, John Smith, delivered a talk to the Saints on the Word of Wisdom. Following his address, President Brigham Young arose and proposed to the general conference that all Saints formally covenant to abstain from tea, coffee, tobacco, whiskey, and "all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom" ("Minutes of the General Conference," Millennial Star, 1 Feb. 1852, p.35). The motion was accepted unanimously and became binding as a commandment for all Church members thereafter.

-Doctrine & Covenants, Student Manual (Institute), p. 207

It has been made very clear that we should not consume drinks made with tea. Just because some people call a drink by the wrong word does not mean there is any confusion in what the prophets have told us.

The problem is you still haven't demonstrated that the prophets weren't calling it by the wrong name. Nor have you demonstrated that herbal teas were never intended to be a part of the prohibition. You've only demonstrated the use of the word tea and applied a convenient definition. However, the matter cannot be definitively resolved without clarification of what the speaker intended when he said whatever he said.

Again, in the absence of a clarifying statement, the best we can do is apply our own interpretation. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having our own interpretation. There is something very wrong with saying that our own interpretations are sanctioned by the Church.

So, do you have any documentation that clarifies that these men never intended that herbal teas be included in the prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom? If so, please share them. If not, please stop saying that the Church has a position on the issue.

"Can I get a coke?"

"Sure, what kind?"

"I'll have a Sprite."

So if the Prophet said coke was against the WoW, would you then argue that we also couldn't drink sprite?

Actually, I would argue that this scenario offers no definitive information about what is or isn't prohibited by the Word of Wisdom unless I could provide a documented and verifiable reference to said information. And until I could provide that documented reference, I wouldn't push my own interpretation as the officially sanctioned interpretation of the Church.

[ozzy]

I guess the things that I always go with are these. First of all, the Brethren have never, in a doctrine revealing setting, given a reason for not drinking coffee or tea. Any reason given is pure speculation or is related to scientific discoveries that effectively say what the word of wisdom does about keeping things in moderation as opposed to excess. Second, the word of wisdom mentions using barley to make mild beverages. Now we know 2 things relating to this. First, when the WoW refers to strong beverages, it is refering to alcoholic ones. Second is that barley is used to make beer which is a strong beverage. So how do we keep it mild? I can't imagine we would just chuck a bunch of barley into a cup of water and drink it. So I figure you have to boil it, ie. make a barley 'tea'. I figure as well that if we can make 'tea' with barley and the word of wisdom says to use herbs, then we are allowed to make herbal 'tea'. Just keep the tea leaves out of the picture and you will do fine.

[wildbean98]

There is only one plant in the world that is called Tea. All tea is made from that plant. Joseph Smith and others have said to not drink tea. Are you seriously having difficulty figuring out what they meant?

Sounds like you've got something to pray about, Margin.

I've done my research. I've spoken to my bishop and my stake president who is also a neurologist who helped my wife figure out that "tea" was causing her migraines. The pain she was in was not trivial, and not even narcotic painkillers would make it go away. No doctor could diagnose the cause. It wasn't until I decided to come back to the church and began discussing the WoW with the missionaries that all of this came about. She is now pain free, thanks to the WoW. No other tisane has caused her to have migraines either. We regularly enjoy Red Chai with Rooibos and honey.

If that's not enough for you then you need to talk to someone else about it. Your Bishop, Stake President, or even Heavenly Father should do.

Edited October 31, 2009 by wildbean98

[eternalpromise516]

this has been a very interesting discussion with very good points made by all sides.

however,

tea is tea, no matter how you try to break it down into it's rainbow of colors (whether it be red, green, black, purple for all i care, maybe even neon pink, whatever) or if it's some other deritive thereof (sp? too lazy to go back and look) or whatever.

the Word of Wisdom says we're not to drink tea. doesn't say why, but it does say to not drink it. i'm like the OP, i avoid anything that even sounds like it has tea or the word tea in it, same for coffee, etc. if you have to ask, then why even bother taking the risk?

to each his own though, i guess. happy halloween everyone! :)

Edited October 31, 2009 by eternalpromise516

[Moksha]

I wish the postum plant had not gone extinct.

[hordak]

I guess the things that I always go with are these. First of all, the Brethren have never, in a doctrine revealing setting, given a reason for not drinking coffee or tea. Any reason given is pure speculation or is related to scientific discoveries that effectively say what the word of wisdom does about keeping things in moderation as opposed to excess. Second, the word of wisdom mentions using barley to make mild beverages. Now we know 2 things relating to this. First, when the WoW refers to strong beverages, it is refering to alcoholic ones. Second is that barley is used to make beer which is a strong beverage. So how do we keep it mild? I can't imagine we would just chuck a bunch of barley into a cup of water and drink it. So I figure you have to boil it, ie. make a barley 'tea'. I figure as well that if we can make 'tea' with barley and the word of wisdom says to use herbs, then we are allowed to make herbal 'tea'. Just keep the tea leaves out of the picture and you will do fine.

Beer is naturally a "mild beverage" with about 5% ABV when compared to "strong drinks" (liqurer) containing 40% and up ABV that can be used "wash bodies".

Not saying beers ok now but beer is not a "strong drink" Strong drinks can be used to wash bodies, beer doesn't contain enough ethanol to be used that way.

[wildbean98]

tea is tea, no matter how you try to break it down into it's rainbow of colors (whether it be red, green, black, purple for all i care, maybe even neon pink, whatever) or if it's some other deritive thereof (sp? too lazy to go back and look) or whatever.

You are correct that tea is tea but the important thing is to remember that just because someone calls a drink by the wrong name doesn't mean you can't drink it. It's unfortunate that tea is never labled just "tea" but by color according to how the tea plant is handled because it can lead to confusion if you don't understand that it's all just tea.

Tea is bad. Infusions and tisane aren't. Sure it's a matter of personal choice what you consume and what you don't, but Bigelow Lemon Tea isn't against the WoW even though calling it tea is a misnomer. If it is then lemonade has to be as well.

[Dravin]

You are correct that tea is tea but the important thing is to remember that just because someone calls a drink by the wrong name doesn't mean you can't drink it.

Thank goodness for that, I loves me my Ginger Beer/Ale and Apple Beer. Yum.