Shakespeare

[Jason]

Ray asked me why I like shakespeare, appearently not believing that I am a fan.

My favorite play is Henry V.

My favorite line is this from Act 3, Scene 3:

If we are mark'd to die, we are now

To do our country loss; and if to live,

The fewer men, the greater share of honour.

God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.

By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,

Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;

It yearns me not if men my garments wear;

Such outward things dwell not in my desires:

But if it be a sin to covet honour,

I am the most offending soul alive.

No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England:

God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour

As one man more, methinks, would share from me

For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!

Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,

That he which hath no stomach to this fight,

Let him depart; his passport shall be made

And crowns for convoy put into his purse:

We would not die in that man's company

That fears his fellowship to die with us.

This day is called the feast of Crispian:

He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,

Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,

And rouse him at the name of Crispian.

He that shall live this day, and see old age,

Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,

And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'

Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.

And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'

Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,

But he'll remember with advantages

What feats he did that day: then shall our names.

Familiar in his mouth as household words

Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,

Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,

Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.

This story shall the good man teach his son;

And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,

From this day to the ending of the world,

But we in it shall be remember'd;

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;

For he to-day that sheds his blood with me

Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,

This day shall gentle his condition:

And gentlemen in England now a-bed

Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,

And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks

That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

[Traveler]

My favorite - form King Lear I think.

"Nothing is as good or as bad as it seams only that thinking makes it so."

The Traveler

[Ray]

Not that I am trying to disapprove of something you appreciate, Jason, but I think the gospel could make up for what Henry V lacks in depth and beauty.

For instance, our Lord and Heavenly Father are willingly to share the glory and honor they have with everyone who overcomes the world, though they also would not care to be seen in the company of men who shirk the good fight.

The words are kinda pretty, though. :)

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 6 2005, 05:43 PM

Not that I am trying to disapprove of something you appreciate, Jason, but I think the gospel could make up for what Henry V lacks in depth and beauty.

For instance, our Lord and Heavenly Father are willingly to share the glory and honor they have with everyone who overcomes the world, though they also would not care to be seen in the company of men who shirk the good fight.

The words are kinda pretty, though.  :)

←

Funny, but that's what King Henry was saying. All those who fight with him that day become his brothers, not his subjects.

I've yet to read anything in the Bible that matches the depth of Shakespeare.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler@Oct 6 2005, 04:40 PM

My favorite - form King Lear I think.

"Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so."

The Traveler

←

Or in other words, nothing is as good or as bad as it seems, even though you may think otherwise... which kinda sounds okay, except for when you actually know or think you know how good or bad something is.

Or in other words, that idea seems to suggest that nothing is actually good or bad, or that you can change your perception of good and bad depending upon how you think about it, and while that may be true in some contexts, overall, it's simply a bad choice of words.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 6 2005, 04:47 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 6 2005, 05:43 PM

Not that I am trying to disapprove of something you appreciate, Jason, but I think the gospel could make up for what Henry V lacks in depth and beauty.

For instance, our Lord and Heavenly Father are willingly to share the glory and honor they have with everyone who overcomes the world, though they also would not care to be seen in the company of men who shirk the good fight.

The words are kinda pretty, though.  :)

←

Funny, but that's what King Henry was saying. All those who fight with him that day become his brothers, not his subjects.

I've yet to read anything in the Bible that matches the depth of Shakespeare.

←

Yeah, except that he really didn't want anyone else to fight with them, thinking the fewer the better.

And I still don't think you have seen all of the beauty in the gospel. :)

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray+Oct 6 2005, 05:53 PM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 6 2005, 04:47 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 6 2005, 05:43 PM

Not that I am trying to disapprove of something you appreciate, Jason, but I think the gospel could make up for what Henry V lacks in depth and beauty.

For instance, our Lord and Heavenly Father are willingly to share the glory and honor they have with everyone who overcomes the world, though they also would not care to be seen in the company of men who shirk the good fight.

The words are kinda pretty, though.  :)

←

Funny, but that's what King Henry was saying. All those who fight with him that day become his brothers, not his subjects.

I've yet to read anything in the Bible that matches the depth of Shakespeare.

←

Yeah, except that he really didn't want anyone else to fight with them, thinking the fewer the better.

And I still don't think you have seen all of the beauty in the gospel. :)

←

C'mon ray. Ever heard "many are called but few are chosen". Or the "Remnant" bs pushed all over the bible.

The fewer the better. Always.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray+Oct 6 2005, 04:51 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Traveler@Oct 6 2005, 04:40 PM

My favorite - form King Lear I think.

"Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so."

The Traveler

←

Or in other words, nothing is as good or as bad as it seems, even though you may think otherwise... which kinda sounds okay, except for when you actually know or think you know how good or bad something is.

Or in other words, that idea seems to suggest that nothing is actually good or bad, or that you can change your perception of good and bad depending upon how you think about it, and while that may be true in some contexts, overall, it's simply a bad choice of words.

←

To you, it is because you think it so...

The Traveler

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 6 2005, 03:43 PM

Not that I am trying to disapprove of something you appreciate, Jason, but I think the gospel could make up for what Henry V lacks in depth and beauty.

←

That's a funny thought.

In talking about great writing, the general consensus it that Shakespeeare is about as good as it gets, including depth and including beauty. I love the bible but so much of it (certainly not all) is mundane and poorly written. Take William Tyndale out of the bible and even some of best written parts aren't nearly so great, at least as examples of good writting.

PS. If you hear a popular quote of pithy quip, just say it's either Shakespeare or Tyndale and you'll be right more often than not.

[Heather]

Jason did you ever see Renaissance Man? That was the first time I heard that soliloquy from Henry V. I ended up buying the Brannagh version, and even memorized it starting with "He that outlives this day, and comes safe home..." It gave me chills when I heard those lines.

I have to say my favorite is Hamlet, probably because it's the first one I ever read and saw. When I was 12 or 13 I think, my Dad had us all take part in reading the play for a FHE, and then we saw it in Cedar City that summer.

Ray, maybe you should take your arguments to the BYU education board. I had to take two difference classes of Shakespeare for my major. All students have to take an English class, which teaches at least one play of Shakespeare and probably a few of the sonnets as well. So if I hadn't passed out of that class with AP exams, I would've had three classes on Shakespeare, not to mention all the other classes which touch on some aspect of his works. I could've graduated a lot sooner!

Maybe not all learning is "uplifting" to everyone; but that doesn't mean it won't serve us well in this life or the next. I don't find anything uplifting about Biology either; but I do hope to be able to create worlds with my husband, and probably be wise to know a bit about life and how it all works.

I could go on and on about how Shakespeare is uplifting to me and how it has affected me, but I don't know if that would hold much value to anyone else. So perhaps I should direct you to the lds.org website. If you do a search for "Shakespeare" in only the Ensign listings, there are 100 articles and talks found.

For example, President Hinckley quoted one of my favorite lines from Hamlet in an Ensign article in Sept. 2004, saying, "And it was Shakespeare who put into the mouth of one of his characters this persuasive injunction: 'To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.' "

President Hinckley quoted Othello in Oct conference 1982:

Who steals my purse steals trash. …

But he that filches from me my good name

Robs me of that which not enriches him

And makes me poor indeed.

(Act 3, sc. 3, lines 157–61.)

President Monson said in an article in 1993, "In Shakespeare’s King Henry VIII, Cardinal Wolsey bemoans his fate. Shorn of his power, deserted by his friends, he cries out: 'Had I but served my God with half the zeal / I served my king, He would not in mine age / Have left me naked to my enemies.' The sweetness of success had turned into the bitter wormwood of disappointment and defeat."

The list goes on and on. Spencer W. Kimball often quoted Shakespeare as did Marion G. Romney. I'm on my way out, so I don't have time to go through it all, but that will get you started.

Perhaps you should start with this talk by Spencer W. Kimball: First Presidency Message The Gospel Vision of the Arts. Ensign, July 1977.

In it he says, "Then there is Shakespeare (1564–1616). Everybody quotes Shakespeare. This English poet and dramatist was prodigious in his productions. His Hamlet and Othello and King Lear and Macbeth are only preludes to the great mass of his productions. Has anyone else ever been so versatile, so talented, so remarkable in his art? And yet could the world produce only one Shakespeare?...Take a Nicodemus and put Joseph Smith’s spirit in him, and what do you have? Take a da Vinci or a Michelangelo or a Shakespeare and give him a total knowledge of the plan of salvation of God and personal revelation and cleanse him, and then take a look at the statues he will carve and the murals he will paint and the masterpieces he will produce. Take a Handel with his purposeful effort, his superb talent, his earnest desire to properly depict the story, and give him inward vision of the whole true story and revelation, and what a master you have!" How can anyone say that there is no point to studying these great masters?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 6 2005, 04:59 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 6 2005, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 6 2005, 04:47 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 6 2005, 05:43 PM

Not that I am trying to disapprove of something you appreciate, Jason, but I think the gospel could make up for what Henry V lacks in depth and beauty.

For instance, our Lord and Heavenly Father are willingly to share the glory and honor they have with everyone who overcomes the world, though they also would not care to be seen in the company of men who shirk the good fight.

The words are kinda pretty, though.  :)

←

Funny, but that's what King Henry was saying. All those who fight with him that day become his brothers, not his subjects.

I've yet to read anything in the Bible that matches the depth of Shakespeare.

←

Yeah, except that he really didn't want anyone else to fight with them, thinking the fewer the better.

And I still don't think you have seen all of the beauty in the gospel. :)

←

C'mon ray. Ever heard "many are called but few are chosen". Or the "Remnant" bs pushed all over the bible.

The fewer the better. Always.

←

I disagree with the idea that the fewer the better, and I can show you through the scriptures that the only reason our Lord and Heavenly Father will choose fewer than all of us is because all of us will not have shown they were willing to fight the good fight.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler+Oct 6 2005, 07:41 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 6 2005, 04:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Traveler@Oct 6 2005, 04:40 PM

My favorite - form King Lear I think.

"Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so."

The Traveler

←

Or in other words, nothing is as good or as bad as it seems, even though you may think otherwise... which kinda sounds okay, except for when you actually know or think you know how good or bad something is.

Or in other words, that idea seems to suggest that nothing is actually good or bad, or that you can change your perception of good and bad depending upon how you think about it, and while that may be true in some contexts, overall, it's simply a bad choice of words.

←

To you, it is because you think it so...

The Traveler

←

Are you suggesting that nothing is good unless I think it is good?

If so, I don't agree with that idea, because I believe what is good is good because it is good, whether or not I think so.

And I also do not agree with the idea that what is good is good only because God thinks it is good either.

Or in other words, good and bad can be defined outside the parameters of what other people think, simply because of what is good and bad.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 11:20 AM

And I also do not agree with the idea that what is good is good only because God thinks it is good either.

But Ray, God knows everything; which means he definitely knows what is good. He is the creator of good.

M.

[Ray]

I didn’t intend for you to believe that I see absolutely no value in anything Shakespeare ever wrote, I simply said that I am not particularly fond of him nor uplifted by anything I have ever read or seen from his productions. I can be persuaded to change my mind, however, once I can see some particularly good and uplifting thoughts from him.

And I agree with this thought from President Kimball:

Take a da Vinci or a Michelangelo or a Shakespeare and give him a total knowledge of the plan of salvation of God and personal revelation and cleanse him, and then take a look at the statues he will carve and the murals he will paint and the masterpieces he will produce.

Or in other words, while people like da Vinci and Michelangelo and Shakespeare have shown themselves to be possessed of particular talents, their work shows they lacked what a better knowledge of the gospel would have enhanced and transformed into something truly uplifting for everyone.

And btw, I feel the same way about music, and the reason I usually listen to instrumental music is because most lyrics convey thoughts which I can’t totally accept. But I still like the music, and I still like a lot of the words, even though I would change a few words or lines to make them more uplifting and agreeable to the best way for things to be.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Maureen+Oct 7 2005, 12:48 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 7 2005, 11:20 AM

And I also do not agree with the idea that what is good is good only because God thinks it is good either.

But Ray, God knows everything; which means he definitely knows what is good. He is the creator of good.

M.

←

Good is nothing more or less or to a greater degree than the absence of evil.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen+Oct 7 2005, 11:48 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 7 2005, 11:20 AM

And I also do not agree with the idea that what is good is good only because God thinks it is good either.

But Ray, God knows everything; which means he definitely knows what is good. He is the creator of good.

M.

←

God knows what is good, and God is the personification of all that is good, but God did not "create" good. And if you don't believe me, ask Him.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 01:50 PM

Or in other words, while people like da Vinci and Michelangelo and Shakespeare have shown themselves to be possessed of particular talents, their work shows they lacked what a better knowledge of the gospel would have enhanced and transformed into something truly uplifting for everyone.

By this, do you mean that the great works of art would not have nudity? Just wondering if that's what you're getting at. I know of some LDS (and others) who are offended by nudity in art museums, which is laughable to me... but to each his or her own, I suppose!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 12:22 PM

God knows what is good, and God is the personification of all that is good, but God did not "create"  good.  And if you don't believe me, ask Him.

←

So if someone agrees to ask, asks, and comes back and reports that he/she has learned that God is not the personification of all that is good but is instead fickle and vindictive, then will you accept that or will you only accept as valid any opinion of God if it matches your own personal opinion.

Me thinks the latter...

[Heather]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 12:50 PM

Or in other words, while people like da Vinci and Michelangelo and Shakespeare have shown themselves to be possessed of particular talents, their work shows they lacked what a better knowledge of the gospel would have enhanced and transformed into something truly uplifting for everyone.

←

In other words, don't sell yourself short because you think the world could only create one Shakespeare. President Kimball himself said that no one has reached the level of Shakespeare: "Has anyone else ever been so versatile, so talented, so remarkable in his art?" In other words, Shakespeare was a master, but imagine what even greater works he could've created knowing the Gospel plan.

In other words, God gives each of us talents. It is quite possible that there are those on the Earth who have been given the same talent as Shakespeare and also have knowledge of the gospel, yet they are not utilizing their talents. They're not developing them so that they have the knowledge to match or exceed what Shakespeare already created. In other words, seeing that we have been given the gift of the gospel, we should strive to improve upon our talents. We should study and learn and only then can we succeed those who have come before us. Shakespeare was given an amazing gift of writing and story telling, but he didn't sit down and pound out his first play without studying the other masters who came before him and other playwrights of the time.

I don't believe God hands us anything on a silver plater. We have to earn it. We have to want it. We have to show dedication. Did God make a boat appear for Nephi to reach the promise land? He gave Nephi the talent and instruction and Nephi used that talent.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 12:50 PM

Or in other words, while people like da Vinci and Michelangelo and Shakespeare have shown themselves to be possessed of particular talents, their work shows they lacked what a better knowledge of the gospel would have enhanced and transformed into something truly uplifting for everyone.

←

I dunno, I'd have to think about it some more but this seems like a bogus thought... like just imagine how much more real estate Donald Trump could buy and how much faster Carl Lewis could have run if they had the gospel.

For what it is worth - while many Mormons excell in many way - one rap, I don't know if it is valid, is that Mormons, for the most part, have not heretofor excelled in the fine arts.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray+Oct 7 2005, 11:20 AM-->

Originally posted by Traveler@Oct 6 2005, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 6 2005, 04:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Traveler@Oct 6 2005, 04:40 PM

My favorite - form King Lear I think.

"Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so."

The Traveler

←

Or in other words, nothing is as good or as bad as it seems, even though you may think otherwise... which kinda sounds okay, except for when you actually know or think you know how good or bad something is.

Or in other words, that idea seems to suggest that nothing is actually good or bad, or that you can change your perception of good and bad depending upon how you think about it, and while that may be true in some contexts, overall, it's simply a bad choice of words.

←

To you, it is because you think it so...

The Traveler

←

Are you suggesting that nothing is good unless I think it is good?

If so, I don't agree with that idea, because I believe what is good is good because it is good, whether or not I think so.

And I also do not agree with the idea that what is good is good only because God thinks it is good either.

Or in other words, good and bad can be defined outside the parameters of what other people think, simply because of what is good and bad.

←

Ray: You are being a little lazy in your thinking. Until you think something is good it cannot be of any benefit to you. What you do not realize has no reality to you. Your perception of what you perceive good or bad defines what is good and bad to you. That fact that you can think beyond yourself is a bit of a misnomer - you only think you are thinking beyond yourself.

Jesus said the same thing is a slightly different manner. He said, "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he."

Thank you very much for you consideration and contribution.

The Traveler

[Heather]

Hamlet says, "For there is nothing is neither good or bad but thinking makes it so."

Hamlet tells Rosencrantz and Guildenstern that Denmark is a prision, the worst prision in the world. Rosencrantz says he doesn't think it is, and Hamlet says, "Why, then 'tis noe to you; for there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so: to me it is a prision."

Who is right? They're both right. Of course R&G don't feel the same way towards Denmark as Hamlet does. Hamlet is the one who has returned home to his father's death and his mother's marriage to his uncle all in such a short period of time.

I'm suggesting that nothing is good in your eyes, unless you think it is good.

I think Shakespeare is wonderful. Based on the assumption that President Hinckley wouldn't quote anyone he didn't think was wonderful, I am assuming President Hinckley feels my sentiments to some degree; however (and not even to use Ray in this because I feel he is borderline in his feelings of Shakespeare) there are those in the world who do not like Shakespeare and see no value in his works. So who is right? I say both are. A person can't be forced to acquire an artist's "taste" or admire and revere what someone else says is wonderful, simply because that person says it is wonderful. You can't force anyone to like Shakespeare just as you can't force anyone to find a testimony of the gospel. It has to be something they come to an understanding of on their own.

[pushka]

I hope this doesn't degenerate into another one of those 'I'm right, you're wrong...I'm gone!' sort of threads...lol

[Snow]

Originally posted by Heather@Oct 8 2005, 08:24 AM

  A person can't be forced to acquire an artist's "taste" or admire and revere what someone else says is wonderful, simply because that person says it is wonderful.  You can't force anyone to like Shakespeare just as you can't force anyone to find a testimony of the gospel.  It has to be something they come to an understanding of on their own.

←

Er, maybe. Show me someone who has actually taken time to read and study Shakespeare who then doesn't respect and appreciate Shakespeare.

Now many people would sit down and watch Fear Factor Miss America Edition instead of picking up a copy of Troilus and Cressida but that is a function more of our laziness rather than a choice what's better.

[Heather]

Quite a few people I went to HS school with didn't like or respect Shakespeare, although they had to read and study his works. I'm sure that feeling carried on through college. In my case though, I was studying it with other English majors. Even if there were some who didn't like Shakespeare, I don't think they'd admit it. :)