LDS Take on Isaiah 44:6

[curtishouse]

I was wondering what the LDS church's take on Bible verses such as Isaiah 44:6 which states:

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

I have been under the impression as discussing things on here the last few days that Heavenly Father is a God, Jesus Christ is a God, The Holy Spirit is a God and, even debatably (is that even a word? lol) Heavenly Father's "wife" is a god as well...How does all of this reconcile with Isa 44:6?

[mnn727]

My personal opinon is that many people latch onto one verse and ignore all the other verses that may contradict it or clairify it.

We also do not believe in Prophets being infallible or that GOd has preserved the Bible with exactly the information He wants us to have. We also know that the Bible has been translated many times and to say that any version says exactly what the original writer meant is way too much of a stretch.

Now having said that, we believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are 3 individuals that make up one Godhead

[Misshalfway]

There is no other God besides God the Father, even inside the Godhead. The Son does the will of the Father and so does the Holy Ghost. If there are other "gods" out in the great expanse they have nothing whatsoever to do with this earth. There is ONLY God and the Godhead which is the same god because they are in absolutely oneness and harmony with each other. No competition for followers. No competing wills or agendas.

It is my understanding that the audience for these Isaiah scriptures was a group of people that were often tempted to worship idols and other gods from other cultures. I think that the vrse is trying to not only teach a truth, but keep the people focused on the only god that could save them.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I was wondering what the LDS church's take on Bible verses such as Isaiah 44:6 which states:

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

I have been under the impression as discussing things on here the last few days that Heavenly Father is a God, Jesus Christ is a God, The Holy Spirit is a God and, even debatably (is that even a word? lol) Heavenly Father's "wife" is a god as well...How does all of this reconcile with Isa 44:6?

First, you have to understand the Shema of Hebraic thought. Shema is based on Dueteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD is One" (Jewish Virtual Library and Hebrews4Christians).

The context is that Israel is not that far removed from Ancient Near Eastern religious thoughts and practices where Polytheistic beliefs were strongly held, interchanged, and understood across different cultures and backgrounds. This is plainly evidenced in the Old Testament.

However, when you render the Shema in its original Hebrew Language, you have it say this:

Shema Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, Adonai, echad (which is a more modern Hebrew context).

Adonai is Lord in Hebrew. Another rendering of this is where Adonia is with YHWH and God is Elohim.

It is here in this context that one has to understand true Hebrew Monotheism.

When we get to Isaiah 44:6, we see the full development of Israelite Monotheism in that YHWH is the only God of Israel, compared to the polytheistic pantheon of those surrounding Israel.

In fact, another passage that provides some aspect to this is that of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (which is mistranslated in the Masoretic Text, and has academically been proven through empirical evidence) that YHWH's inheritance was Israel.

The current rendering is:

8When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 9For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Comparing this with the discovery of the Ugaritic Text and the LXX, we have a different rendering:

When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,

when he divided humankind;

he set the bounds of the peoples

according to the number of the children of El,

and the Lord’s portion was his people.

Jacob, the lot of his inheritance.

Scholars admit that Israelite Polytheism represented a more authentic understanding this passage where it is believed that the Israelites believed in a pantheon much similar to that of Canaan, Egypt and other Semitic races. However, it is more understood in the context of Henotheistic rendering than polytheistic because Israel believed that there existed a pantheon of Gods and El being the Most High God in the pantheon. This makes even more sense when one comes across passages like that of Job where it says, "And the sons of God came and presented themselves, and Satan came also among them".

It is important to understand this because when Christ comes to preach the Gospel and fulfill his mission, he claims divinity, but he also claims that he is separate and distinct from the Father. To the point that Christ claims that he existed with the Father, that the Father sent him, that the Father taught Him, and that he existed before Abraham and is the Great I AM. Furthermore, Matthew 23 and 24 is a very interesting set of passages that are very eschatological by nature, but it is in Matthew 24 that Christ laments over the city of Jerusalem and the Israelites by declaring that he had gathered them many times before.

So, when the Latter-day Saints say that we believe in the Godhead, we do accept that there are three Gods, separate and distinct from one another, however, we believe that they are One in unified purpose, and harmony. The simplest analogy is to say that the Family is One, while there exists three or more separate and distinct individuals who make up that family.

[bytebear]

I was wondering what the LDS church's take on Bible verses such as Isaiah 44:6 which states:

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

I have been under the impression as discussing things on here the last few days that Heavenly Father is a God, Jesus Christ is a God, The Holy Spirit is a God and, even debatably (is that even a word? lol) Heavenly Father's "wife" is a god as well...How does all of this reconcile with Isa 44:6?

For clarity, I would change your understanding of LDS belief a bit. We would not say:

Heavenly Father is a God, Jesus Christ is a God, The Holy Spirit is a God and, even debatably (is that even a word? lol) Heavenly Father's "wife" is a god as well

We would say:

Heavenly Father is a god, Jesus Christ is a god, The Holy Spirit is a god and Heavenly Father is God, Jesus Christ is God, The Holy Spirit is God. The Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants all affirm that the Godhead is ONE GOD, regardless of how many beings are in it.

As to Heavenly Mother, there is only an understanding that she exists, but we have no knowledge of her role, and she is not part of the Godhead (despite the musings of some feminists).

Edited November 9, 2009 by bytebear

[Just_A_Guy]

I have a slightly different take on this: I take it as a bit of scriptural hyperbole.

Remember in Kindergarten Cop, where Arnold Schwarzenegger screams to his class "There IS no bathroom!!!!

Now, is he literally correct? Of course not. The point he's making is, "from your perspective there is no bathroom!" (I'm not going to let you go, so there may as well not be one.)

Reading Isaiah 44 in context, you see that trinitarian notions were not at all the issue here. Isaiah's preaching against idolatry, and in this context it makes perfect sense for Isaiah to say "there are no other gods!" Because from the perspective of Isaiah's hearers--there aren't. Jehovah is God. Not Ishtar; not Baal; not Ashur or Marduk or Horus or Osiris. Jehovah. Period.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[rameumptom]

Many scholars, including, Margaret Barker, Old Testament scholar and Methodist preacher, suggests a different view.

Ancient Israel believed in a pantheon of gods. They were all divine sons of El Elyon/Elohim. El Elyon gave each of his sons an earthly kingdom to rule over, kind of as a training period for them. Israel, his choicest land, was given to Jehovah/Yahweh.

These divine sons were continually challenging one another for primacy. In Job 1, we see that several of the divine sons of El Elyon (including the Adversary, or Satan) went to Yahweh to challenge him for primacy over the land of Israel.

In Isaiah's day, the Canaanite God, Yam, fell to Baal. One of the divine sons overcame another and took his land. In Isaiah, the Lord Yahweh was telling the Israelites that he was not like Yam or Baal. There was no God before him (Yam did not precede him), and there would be no God after him (Baal would not replace him).

When placed in ancient context, the verse makes complete sense.

[BELIEVE]

I am proud to say that I have beeen a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints all of my life, but found my testimony weak and vulnerable to subjects such as listed above...I took the Gospel for granted until one day I researched the most important points of the churches teachings and found how blessed we are... These teachings have made me into the person I am today. The Gospel Principles are profound and specific to the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Bible alone will point these things out to you everywhere through out it! ... Here referenced for your reading are BIBLE VERSES that have brought me to become a true believer...God Bless you all and LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Genesis 1:26 - Let US Make Man in OUR image after OUR likeness

Psalms 82:6

Genesis 3:22 - Become like US

Hebrews 1:5 - I will make him my son

Hebrews 1:6-9

Hebrew 1:4

Acts 7:55

Matthew 25:34

Revelations 3:21

Matthew 16:5

Matthew 17:15

Matthew 23:9

Matthew 23:37 - Read on

Matthew 28:19

2 Corinthians 4:4

John 5:19

John 7:161 Timothy `1:5

John 3:35

John 20:17

Act 2:32-33

1 John 4:7

The father loveth the son and have given all things into his hands

All found in King James Version

The questions starts to become where doesn't it say that God and Jesus are separate beings. John 17:21,23, Ephesians 4:5-6, 1 Corinthians, 8:6, John 10:30, 38

1 Corinthians 12:11One body also is Christ for the body is not one member but many

[livy111us]

Mormonism and the nature of God/"No God beside me" - FAIRMormon

"No god was formed before me." It uses the verb י?צ?ר?, which is a direct reference to idol manufacture. It means no god made by human hands is an actual god.

From Isaiah chapter 41 to 45, God is rebuking Israel for worshiping false gods made with their own hands. The following verses confirm this: Isaiah 41:29, 42:8, 43:10, 12, 24 , 44:8, 9, 10, 17, 19, 45:9, 12, 16, 20, 22. They all speak about false gods that are manufactured by man either out of wood or stone. In context, Isaiah 44:6 fits in perfectly in with it's surrounding chapters.

[skippy740]

3 Nephi 11:27

And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

3 Nephi 11:32

And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

3 Nephi 11:35-36

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

[Blackmarch]

I was wondering what the LDS church's take on Bible verses such as Isaiah 44:6 which states:

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

I have been under the impression as discussing things on here the last few days that Heavenly Father is a God, Jesus Christ is a God, The Holy Spirit is a God and, even debatably (is that even a word? lol) Heavenly Father's "wife" is a god as well...How does all of this reconcile with Isa 44:6?

because there is no other God that has power over us, and can save us.

Sure other Gods exist, but only one has power over us.

[Faded]

Wow, somebody dug up a pretty old thread. To SeattleTruthSeaker's point, one of the words commonly used in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament to reference God was "Eloheim" which absolutely implies plurality. A more accurate rendering of each passage where Eloheim is invoked should have been "The Gods" instead of "God."

for example:

Exodus 20:1-3 And the Gods spoke all these words saying, "I am Jehovah, we are your Gods which have brought you out of the land of Egypt. You shall have no other gods before my face."

Taking a more literal approach when translating the text seriously shakes the absoluteness of many passages that other faiths believe contradict our beliefs. The wording in English should never supersede the original Hebrew wording -- the Hebrew came first.

But since the more literal translation for "Eloheim" didn't jive with the accepted modern theology of Christendom (or Judaism for that matter), the word ended up singular in our English Bibles.

Interestingly, Trinitarians point to this very plurality in the Hebrew text in order to defend their own beliefs against Unitarian criticisms.