Conservative Artist. Who knew?

[Maxel]

I disagree with your assertion that disagreeing can't be patriotic, LM. I disagree with many things the current administration is doing, and I aim to take some kind of action to make that disagreement known and make my voice heard. I do these things because I think the basic values of the Constitution are under attack.

Is that not patriotic? I'd agree that if this were the only thing I were doing, and not voting or educating myself or displaying other signs of patriotism I wouldn't be very patriotic- but it's my sense of patriotism that leads me to disagree on this situation.

[NeuroTypical]

Well surely Maxel, identifying problems and striving to make things better are noble and righteous activities. Participating in the political process, trying to shape the country you'd like to live in - all are good things. But are they patriotic? Again - think of the definitions of the word:

One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.

...

one whose ruling passion is the love of his country

...

a person who regards himself or herself as a defender

Consider also - there were many supporters of Hitler's regime who were very patriotic. Germans who sought to overthrow the regime were not patriotic - they were insurgents, a rebellion - the opposite of patriotism. If you're being patriotic, you are supporting what is in place and defending it. If you're trying to make it better, you're not defending what's there, and hence, you are not being patriotic. When you and I tackle Pres. Obama's policies and try to point out why they're bad for us, we're being politically active, but we're not being patriotic.

From the Greek patriotes "fellow countryman," from patrios "of one's fathers," patris "fatherland," from pater/patros "father," with -otes, suffix expressing state or condition. Meaning "loyal supporter of one's country"

It means patriots agree with what's already there, and find it worth defending. The Patriot missile system is aptly named - it defends what is behind it from what is attacking it. It is not trying to affect change.

And there has to be something in place in order to defend it. Revolutionary George Washington was not being a patriot. Washington the President was patriotic.

I do not believe 'lack of patriotism' means evil, bad, useless, or any other insulting or dismissive phrase. If you think you got a better idea, go advocate for it. Strive for what you consider to be positive change. But don't pretend you're being patriotic while you're doing it, unless what you're striving for is rooted, is founded, has as it's cornerstone, constitutional principles and notions layed down by the founding fathers of this country.

So, here are some examples of what being powerfully patriotic in modern America looks like:

* Standing on an overpass waving a flag (one that is not upside down, on fire, or covered in urine)

* Hauling your kids outside early one morning and reciting the pledge of allegiance, and then fighting back your emotions as you proudly tell stories about how their grandfather fought in WWII

* "I may not agree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to my last breath your right to say it."

* My wife once physically inserted herself between a war protester and the off-duty soldier she was annoying. She told the guy "she's not worth your time soldier", and proceeded to give the annoying war protester a righteously indignant verbal beat down.

And really, I don't want to lose sight of my main point, which is that I see conservatives being patriotic all the time, whereas I can count on one hand the times I've seen liberals be patriotic in the last decade.

LM

Edited November 28, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Maxel]

Okay, I see what you're saying, LM. I'll let you get back to your main point... I'm not going to wade into the question of who's more patriotic: conservatives or liberals.

[Traveler]

My father was an artist. He would have been happy if I had been an artist as well but some of us may have the genes but still not have the talent. When I was young he gave me an article to inspire me artistically. To this day the article has left an impression – but I am not an artist.

The article was about a painting by an American that had been sold for the highest amount of any American painting. What was interesting about the painting is that the entire canvas was painted black. Many critics could not see any reason that painting had been sold for so much. They scoffed and made fun of the painting. One critic, the one writing the article, could not believe that a black painting would be worth so much. So he decided to take a closer look. The painting was a large painting about 12 feet tall and about 5 feet wide. As the critic looked closely at the painting he discovered that the entire canvas was painted with a very delicate brush with short storks. He wondered – if you are going to paint a large canvas with only one color – why not use a roller. Why use a small brush with short storks.

He could not leave the thought alone. He began to look at the painting from different angles and at various distances. His next discovery amazed him. He discovered that if he got down on his knees to look at the painting that the painting would reveal an image. The image could only be seen from a kneeling position. The artist had used the short stroks to catch light and created an image by reversing his stroks. The image was that of the Christ on the cross but it could only be seen by those willing to kneel before the painting.

The Traveler

Edited November 28, 2009 by Traveler

[bluedreams]

Well surely Maxel, identifying problems and striving to make things better are noble and righteous activities. Participating in the political process, trying to shape the country you'd like to live in - all are good things. But are they patriotic? Again - think of the definitions of the word:

I still hold issue with the assumption that one cannot protest against something and not be patriotic through said action. To be loyal, or love, support, and defend one's country does not necessitate that one defend all that occurs within said country. Especially in the American sense where country isn't tied specifically within one leader or specific policy but within founding principles and ideas. If something is seen as a threat to the country's foundational principles....say like all men created equal. Than to protest against policies that go against the country - for example, the Civil Rights movement - would be an act of patriotism as one defends American principles. America, after all, is more than just a homeland.

What is patriotic in America, to me, differs between people by what they value most in american society today. For example, I think trying to build up and create stronger communities is just as patriotic as saluting the flag as long as the idea is to build up a strong nation and defend it....whether that defence comes from internal growth or more external displays.

But even if you desire more patriotic, by your definition, displays....there's plenty on the liberal end. Obama, for example had that childhood of listening to grandpa's stories about WWII and learning to love one's country. To be honest any president, by your use of the definition, would constitute being patriotic during their administration, including a large number of 'liberal' democrats. And if you wanted an indication of patriotism, one need only to have lived on the East Coast during 9-11 for a good time to see it. I lived just south of DC, I saw the pentagon within those first few months and could fully understand the reactions of the people living nearby for the next few years. No matter who it was and what the political ideology was they all hailed the American spirit equally strong. It wasn't just Congress singing along, but almost all Americans doing the same...burning candles, volunteering, and doing whatever little way they could to support our country. In retrospect, it was partially to our detriment in the following years. Patriotism of this sort, without any other counter can be dangerous....it led to actions that IMHO should never have been allowed and wouldn't have in any other state of collective psyche.

To be honest LM...that's about as far as I'm willing to go on this note. The question insists a level of restraint on my part in answering than i prefe rto give on internet forums. The idea that conservatives or liberals are more patriotic is beyond asenine to me....it's purely insulting. I can't seperate my emotions from the abstract definitions you've given, because as an America of the left-leaning type all I can see is the blue skies of the morning my country and home was hit by airplanes...the shocking look of a deep black hole in the side of the pentagon the TV's did no justice for as we passed it on the highway...the candles lit and prayers given equally by friends no matter what their religion or political thought...the deep desires of all in that time to show the world that we were Americans who loved our country, and would not stand for such attacks. All I can think of is the vast wave of collective emotions that took me and all the people I knew - no matter what their leaning may have been - in the following months to come.

Liberals and conservatives are most likely equally patriotic....they both love and defend their country....but how they go about doing so may strongly differ.

With luv,

BD

Edited November 28, 2009 by bluedreams

[bluedreams]

He could not leave the thought alone. He began to look at the painting from different angles and at various distances. His next discovery amazed him. He discovered that if he got down on his knees to look at the painting that the painting would reveal an image. The image could only be seen from a kneeling position. The artist had used the short stroks to catch light and created an image by reversing his stroks. The image was that of the Christ on the cross but it could only be seen by those willing to kneel before the painting.

The Traveler

That is definitely amazing art.

With luv,

BD

[boyando]

My father was an artist. He would have been happy if I had been an artist as well but some of us may have the genes but still not have the talent. When I was young he gave me an article to inspire me artistically. To this day the article has left an impression – but I am not an artist.

The article was about a painting by an American that had been sold for the highest amount of any American painting. What was interesting about the painting is that the entire canvas was painted black. Many critics could not see any reason that painting had been sold for so much. They scoffed and made fun of the painting. One critic, the one writing the article, could not believe that a black painting would be worth so much. So he decided to take a closer look. The painting was a large painting about 12 feet tall and about 5 feet wide. As the critic looked closely at the painting he discovered that the entire canvas was painted with a very delicate brush with short storks. He wondered – if you are going to paint a large canvas with only one color – why not use a roller. Why use a small brush with short storks.

He could not leave the thought alone. He began to look at the painting from different angles and at various distances. His next discovery amazed him. He discovered that if he got down on his knees to look at the painting that the painting would reveal an image. The image could only be seen from a kneeling position. The artist had used the short stroks to catch light and created an image by reversing his stroks. The image was that of the Christ on the cross but it could only be seen by those willing to kneel before the painting.

The Traveler

The value of any object is what some one is willing to pay for it. Even if I had the money, I wouldn't have bothered to bid on that painting, for two reasons. One, I think that art should be pleasing to the eye and not spend so much time with a message. Two, if I am to have a message, I want the Christus with out stretched arms.

I started this thread,because I didn't know what to think, when a facebook friend posted the link. Personally, I have discovered that as art, I will skip it. Not enough to please the eye, for me. More about the message than the beauty.

I did recall a few years back, when the national endowments for the arts helped pay for pictures of a crucifix in a jar of urine, the defenders of those pictures reminded us that art must make you think. I think I need some aspirin for my headache, from all this thinking.

Like I said before in a earlier post, me and a paintbrush don't get along. But I have had a little luck with photography. I even won a blue ribbon at the state fair, once. And so, I feel that any one can like of dislike what I have taken picture's of. I am my biggest critic. I also enjoyed some of my pictures and have found myself, pulling a muscle, to pat myself on the back, at times. I like what I like and there is nothing wrong with that. I hope I can say that I afford you the same privilege.

One thing that I can not prove, but really believe, is, the kind of art work that you like, tells a lot about your personality.

What I don't understand is why some poster's chose to attack me and conservatism, rather than talk about the picture. I am not saying that I was hurt by the attacks, but just like the crucifix in the jar of urine, there lacks a certain depth of thought.

Well I think it is time for a nap, so I can wake up refreshed and ready to do some thinking.

Thank you all for posting. When I say all, I mean all.

[bluedreams]

The value of any object is what some one is willing to pay for it. Even if I had the money, I wouldn't have bothered to bid on that painting, for two reasons. One, I think that art should be pleasing to the eye and not spend so much time with a message. Two, if I am to have a message, I want the Christus with out stretched arms.

I started this thread,because I didn't know what to think, when a facebook friend posted the link. Personally, I have discovered that as art, I will skip it. Not enough to please the eye, for me. More about the message than the beauty.

To me art is somewhat like the bible...it's purpose is steeped in message and symbolism and not necessarily the blatant events. The best art for me is art that encourages interaction, thought, and above all message. Not all art needs to have symbols or the likes...it's still art if it doesn't have any at all but is very straight forward. But the actual image always comes second to the underlying message for me.

So when I see art, especially art that is not necessarily meant to be simply pretty, my first thought is about what message it's working to convey.

Like I said before in a earlier post, me and a paintbrush don't get along. But I have had a little luck with photography. I even won a blue ribbon at the state fair, once. And so, I feel that any one can like of dislike what I have taken picture's of. I am my biggest critic. I also enjoyed some of my pictures and have found myself, pulling a muscle, to pat myself on the back, at times. I like what I like and there is nothing wrong with that. I hope I can say that I afford you the same privilege.

I'm sure the muscle was deservedly pulled. Most people have a little creativity in them. I'm glad you've found an outlet for yours.

One thing that I can not prove, but really believe, is, the kind of art work that you like, tells a lot about your personality.

Can't prove it either, but I completely agree. I once made a series of paintings that were facial side profiles of four very different women. One was inspired by asian styles of art, showing a portrait of a geisha. Another was more of an abstracted representation of a woman in an african mask with fairly sharp colors. Another was a deep colored painting that was dark brown with strong red and orange tone that was very fierce looking. The last was of a painting of a hawaiian woman looking up....the only word to describe it is cute. I then went around selling copies. Who liked what was often very dependent on their personality. My mother, for example, only really liked the hawaiian painting because she very much agrees with how you see art: as something that should be pleasing to the eye.

With luv,

BD

[NeuroTypical]

I think trying to build up and create stronger communities is just as patriotic as saluting the flag as long as the idea is to build up a strong nation and defend it....whether that defence comes from internal growth or more external displays.

That makes sense and I could certainly consider building a strong nation as a patriotic act.

Obama, for example had that childhood of listening to grandpa's stories about WWII and learning to love one's country.

...

And if you wanted an indication of patriotism, one need only to have lived on the East Coast during 9-11 for a good time to see it. I lived just south of DC, I saw the pentagon within those first few months and could fully understand the reactions of the people living nearby for the next few years. No matter who it was and what the political ideology was they all hailed the American spirit equally strong. It wasn't just Congress singing along, but almost all Americans doing the same...burning candles, volunteering, and doing whatever little way they could to support our country.

These sound like fine examples of patriotism also.

Anyone else have examples of liberals doing patriotic things?

LM

[FunkyTown]

In other words, you're not being patriotic if you're pointing out flaws and recommending fixes. You can't be a patriot if you're attacking. You can only be patriotic if you're defending from attacks.

I'd love to hear examples of liberal patriotism. Anyone got any?

LM

I'm uncertain what you mean by this, LM. Are you saying that if someone saw the Hoover Dam was cracking, he wouldn't be patriotic if he tried to tell the authorities, but would be if he shouted down the one trying to tell the authorities with things like, "I don't know where you're from, but where I come from American Engineering doesn't crack!"

One would think it would be very patriotic to try to save the lives of the thousands whow ould be killed or displaced by the dam cracking. In fact, for a much more concrete example:

The Commission on Engineering and Technical Systems wrote a paper that was submitted back in 1983 saying the Dams in New Orleans was inadequate. One would think that their attempts to save American lives, which were promptly ignored, was patriotic.

Can you give examples where someone ignoring flaws has been patriotic?

In fact, that would mean that the Tea Parties conservatives throw, along with the Town Halls, are very unpatriotic as they're pointing out perceived flaws. Hunh... I would suspect most conservatives disagree with your interpretation of Patriot.

Edited November 29, 2009 by FunkyTown

[NeuroTypical]

Are you saying that if someone saw the Hoover Dam was cracking, he wouldn't be patriotic if he tried to tell the authorities

...

One would think it would be very patriotic to try to save the lives of the thousands whow ould be killed or displaced by the dam cracking.

I refer you (for the third time) to the dictionary definition of the term.

Sounds like you've got an emotional attachment to that word meaning something it doesn't, Funky. I don't think I can help you with that, but I'll give it one last try:

Are you saying that in 1936, when the German couple informed the SS that Jews were being hidden next door, they were not being patriotic?

If you don't think that's an act of patriotism, then you really don't have an argument with me, but with the dictionary.

In fact, that would mean that the Tea Parties conservatives throw, along with the Town Halls, are very unpatriotic as they're pointing out perceived flaws.

You seem to have skipped over this:

"I do not believe 'lack of patriotism' means evil, bad, useless, or any other insulting or dismissive phrase. If you think you got a better idea, go advocate for it. Strive for what you consider to be positive change. But don't pretend you're being patriotic while you're doing it, unless what you're striving for is rooted, is founded, has as it's cornerstone, constitutional principles and notions layed down by the founding fathers of this country.

I can't help you if you won't actually engage my arguments, either.

LM

Edited November 29, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[FunkyTown]

Fair enough, LM. I honestly didn't engage that because I thought you were being disingenuous, but if it's honestly how you feel, then I will address it.

If being a patriot is completely neutral: IE: Neither a good thing or a bad thing, then it can not be used as a bludgeon in political discourse. However, you should know that the vast majority of people do not go by your definition of Patriotism. Instead, they go with:

having or showing great love for one's country He is so patriotic that he refuses to buy anything made abroad. patrioties وَطَني родолюбив vlastenecký patriotisk partiotisch πατριωτικός patriótico isamaalik میهن دوست patrioottinen patriotique פַּטרִיוֹטִי देशभक्ति पूर्ण rodoljuban hazafias patriotik þjóðrækinn patriottico 愛国的な 애국적인 patriotinis, patriotiškas patriotisks patriotik vaderlandslievend patriotisk patriotyczny patriótico patriot(ic) патриотический vlastenecký rodoljuben patriotski patriotisk ที่มีลักษณะของผู้รักชาติ vatansever 愛國的 патріотичний حب الوطني کا، وطن پرستي کا yêu nước 爱国的

(Quoted from thefreedictionary.com)

Theoretically, one could also say "I have yet to see a single conservative Patriot in all of my life." - In this case, I am referring of course to the Patriot Missile Defense System, which is yet a third definition to the word Patriot, but certainly not the definition that the majority would adhere to.

Now, having a love of country is very different from refusing to try to improve that same country. Thomas Jefferson, for instance, went beyond the constitutional mandate when he used tax funds to purchase the Louisiana Territory. I would call him a patriot, still. He saw a need for America and he made a change to the country he loved.

Alexander Hamilton's criticisms in his various literary works under the pseudonyms Publius, Phocion, Lucius Crassus, etc displayed his use of the written word as a call to action. I would still term him a patriot.

My concern here, LM, is that you're saying that the majority of liberals don't love their country(The defining characteristic of the patriot in most people's eyes). That's simply not true.

You seem to have skipped over this:

"I do not believe 'lack of patriotism' means evil, bad, useless, or any other insulting or dismissive phrase. If you think you got a better idea, go advocate for it. Strive for what you consider to be positive change. But don't pretend you're being patriotic while you're doing it, unless what you're striving for is rooted, is founded, has as it's cornerstone, constitutional principles and notions layed down by the founding fathers of this country.

I can't help you if you won't actually engage my arguments, either.

LM

[bytor2112]

I tend to think that conservatives and liberals view patriotism a bit differently. I also think that there are varying degrees of each ideology. The majority of Americans self describe themselves as conservative....but how conservative is not so easy to flesh out. I suspect the same about liberals. Liberals, like there conservative counterparts are often victims of stereotyping.

It is interesting and I dare say Patriotic, that a self described socialist and atheist is also serving as a soldier in the US Army and seems to be an honorable and Patriotic fellow......we know him as Godless.

[NeuroTypical]

I think trying to build up and create stronger communities is just as patriotic as saluting the flag as long as the idea is to build up a strong nation and defend it...

As I thought about this topic over the weekend, Bluedream's quote here kept showing up. A couple of things occured to me.

* Patriotism is more the reason you're doing something, than the thing you're actually doing. As such, if two people do the same thing, one of them might be doing it out of patriotism, the other might have different reasons. These other reasons might be fine and noble, but not patriotic. Also, patriotic motivations can express themselves in numerous and diverse ways.

* I've remembered no small number of lefties in my own life who have demonstrated patriotism in word and deed. Many educators (a vocation where lefties seem to be in the majority) I've encountered over the years, have shown (and even helped instill in me) a strong love of country and the constitution that is supposed to govern it. The notion that 'we've got something great, and it's worth passing on to the next generation' was presented very powerfully to me by some rather flaming liberals over the years.

I still wish more people could internalize the truth that patriotic motivations are not automatically good or bad just because they're patriotic. So many incorrect gut reactions around "whaddaya mean I don't love my country?" or "whaddaya mean saving lives isn't patriotic?".

- You can do noble and good things, without patriotism entering into it.

- You can do many horrible and evil things, motivated primarily by patriotism.

- I'd still like to hear more examples of liberals doing things because they love their country and want to preserve and defend it.

LM

[Guest Godless]

I tend to think that conservatives and liberals view patriotism a bit differently. I also think that there are varying degrees of each ideology. The majority of Americans self describe themselves as conservative....but how conservative is not so easy to flesh out. I suspect the same about liberals. Liberals, like there conservative counterparts are often victims of stereotyping.

Agreed. I'll be honest, there are liberals out there that make me want to puke. Conversely, I have a great deal of respect for many of the conservatives that I know personally. The reverse is also true of both sides. You're right though, it's far too easy to base perceptions on peoples' political views on stereotypes. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes. I think most people are.

Personally, I believe that there is plenty of room for patriotism on both sides. I know I tend to occasionally make light of conservative protesters, but the truth is that they're doing their patriotic duty by trying to fix what they see as problems with our country. I may not agree with them, but my ideology tends to drive me to do the same thing from the other side of the issues, so I really can't hold it against them. If you see something wrong with your country, then you should make your voice heard. That's what democracy means.

You're also absolutely correct when you say that left and right view patriotism differently. The biggest roadblock there is that whenever one side speaks out on an issue, the other sees it as detrimental for the country. So then they feel it is their patriotic duty to discredit and demolish the arguments on the other side in order to save the country from ruin. The truth is that both sides believe that they are acting in the country's best interests.

It is interesting and I dare say Patriotic, that a self described socialist and atheist is also serving as a soldier in the US Army and seems to be an honorable and Patriotic fellow......we know him as Godless.

Thank you. :)

[Moksha]

Eh, not as much as you might think. My grandfather is an atheist, and very conservative in his political views.

Shades of Karl Rove, Iron Rand and Niccolo Machiavelli! Can this be real?

[Guest]

My 3rd-grade son got student of the month of November for Patriotism... something about him always standing up straight for the anthem and putting his hand on his chest and being able to recite the pledge of allegiance and knowing who the president, vice president, governor and mayor is. Not sure if he's conservative or liberal yet. My husband is conservative, I'm independent, we both agree the kids will have to blaze their own paths.

[bluedreams]

I still wish more people could internalize the truth that patriotic motivations are not automatically good or bad just because they're patriotic. So many incorrect gut reactions around "whaddaya mean I don't love my country?" or "whaddaya mean saving lives isn't patriotic?".

- You can do noble and good things, without patriotism entering into it.

- You can do many horrible and evil things, motivated primarily by patriotism.

- I'd still like to hear more examples of liberals doing things because they love their country and want to preserve and defend it.

This is true, but as one who's gut reaction was what you described, it's definitely because of what FunkyTown said as well as a general amount of stereotypes that go around about liberals in the first place that bring this about.

After the gut reaction, I do agree with you that patriotism can be a neutral thing. To be honest, I'm probably not the most patriotic person around. Solely because I worry more about humanity as a whole and its collective destiny than I do of my nation. I love my nation because many of the fundamental ideals that it esteems are ones that I would hope be maintained in the future. It is the ideas that I love moreso than the land it's attached to. There are points where, how you are defining patriotism would border more on the line of extreme nationalism (maybe even facism). To me, if we begin utilizing or endorsing practises that go against our core ideology - even in the name of protecting our land - the unpatriotic acts are the ones that threaten our beliefs and (if its bad enough) humanity. Those who fight against it are far more patriotic. America isn't a piece of rock, it's not a certain royal family, or a political party. It's a philosophy, a way of life, and a set of ideals (many that I would consider inspired).

The core of what being American is, is one of basic culture and fundamental approaches to democracy. So therefore the definition of patriotism is also stretched to not only incorporate those who defend land, but those who defend the ideals the land called the U.S. was based upon.

With luv,

BD

Edited December 2, 2009 by bluedreams