Please help to elucidate paradise/spirit prison

[SueMazza]

My husband had the heads of the poor missionaries spinning last night over this concept. Basically, this is the gist of my husband's issue: Why do the righteous go one place (paradise), but the sinners AND those who have never had a chance to accept the Gospel go to the same place,i.e. spirit prison. It seems so unfair that the those who didn't know any better are with the ones that are "weeping and wailing" and gnashing their teeth. it took me about an hout to understand what my husband was saying, but once I understood his question, I admitted that it has some validity.

The missionaries are totally stumped, and we all want my husband to understand this. He's okay with everything before this point, and after this point, in the Plan of Salvation, but he really can't get past this.

Any enlightment would be appreciated! Thank you!

[bytor2112]

So, your question is WHY will sinners and those who never had the chance to hear the gospel end up in Spirit Prison. In one sense both spirit prison and paradise are considered prison....because the spirit is separated from the body and awaits the resurrection. To answer your question more specifically, Christ bridged the divide between paradise and spirit prison so that the righteous could mingle with the wicked and preach the gospel to them. Acceptance of the Gospel opens the prison doors and enables those in prison to enter into paradise. That is why we do Temple work...... to redeem the dead. Those ignorant of the gospel must accept and repent in order to enter paradise and the ordinances performed in Temples are for there benefit.

You might want to check out the following scriptures:

1 Peter 3:18-21

D&C 76: 73-74

Moses 7: 37-39

Luke 16:19-31

D&C All of 138

Edited November 27, 2009 by bytor2112

[Moksha]

Could be that they are located in the same place, but one group wears ankle monitors and the other group wears white shirts, ties, black name tags and travels around on bikes teaching those with the ankle monitors.

[RanMan]

That an interesting question.

Perhaps the answer lies in why it is referred to as Spirit Prison. Or in what makes one side prison and the other side paradise.

I'm not sure that there is much revelation on the topic. We know that both places are where the dead await the resurrection. Those who have accepted Christ reside on one side and those who have not on the other. I imagine that there is more to it than the way of the Lord being the path to freedom and living it makes life a paradise, but I don't know exactly what.

:)

[Kishkumen_Called]

It seems so unfair that the those who didn't know any better are with the ones that are "weeping and wailing" and gnashing their teeth.

I'm going from memory here, but I don't recall that "weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth" was associated with Spirit Prison per se, but it's a term associated with sinners and their unrepentant state

And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth D&C 95:8).

This may or may not apply to ALL those who are in Spirit Prison.

If you'll recall, we're also expected to be true to the light we have been given; this applies if we have the gospel or not. If we are not true to the light and knowledge we have, we will need to repent and accept Christ's atonement in our behalf, which like all true repentance causes sorrow and grief (even if only for a short time). So, those without prior knowledge may be sorrowful as they repent of their sins (what their responsible for, anyways). No surprises there.

From what I've read, separation of the body and spirit is not a joyful experience. That may contribute to the sorrow felt in Spirit prison; however, I would expect those feelings would be magnified in the absence of the gospel knowledge.

The last thing to consider is that the Lord is as abundantly merciful as He can be and only imposes as little justice as He can. I'm sure that Spirit prison falls within those parameters. This takes faith to accept.

Hope this helps your husband.

[skalenfehl]

This is an excellent topic and is answered at lds.org.

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - The Postmortal Spirit World

Furthermore from lds.org, concerning our final resting state AFTER our time in the spirit world and our judgment:

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have "received the testimony of Jesus" and been "made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood" (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70; 76:92–96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1–6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; "Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, "I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven" (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants D&C 76:71–80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84, D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.

Perdition

Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called "the sons of perdition" and will have to "abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory" (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of "those who know [God's] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God's] power" (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32–49).

[Traveler]

One of the great misunderstandings of things is not understanding the difference between good and evil. The end result of evil is bondage – this is why in the spirit world those who have been trapped by evil are spoken of as residents of a spirit prison. The end result of good is freedom – freedom is given the symbolic name of paradise in the spirit world.

The first step towards evil and bondage is selfishness and the seeking of self fulfillment.

The first step towards good and freedom is selfless sacrifice for others.

Those that have pursued a course in life towards self gratification will find their habits have become addictive limiting and a spiritual bondage.

Those that have pursued a course in life towards the giving of self for the benefit of others will find that their efforts are liberating and a means of opening opportunities which are the essence of freedom.

The ultimate course of freedom and self sacrifice is the course of Christ – whereby one takes upon themselves the selfless covenant of love of G-d and man as manifested by Jesus and his covenant to repent of sins through baptism. Many understand and think that repentance is to release of one’s own sins – but in truth it is the release of all sins upon all people.

The Traveler

[tubaloth]

Basically, this is the gist of my husband's issue: Why do the righteous go one place (paradise), but the sinners AND those who have never had a chance to accept the Gospel go to the same place,i.e. spirit prison. It seems so unfair that the those who didn't know any better are with the ones that are "weeping and wailing" and gnashing their teeth. it took me about an hout to understand what my husband was saying, but once I understood his question, I admitted that it has some validity.

I don't really see any problem here. Going with the thought from Traveler, Its about following the Atonement. The Atonement sets us free. It only works if we we know about it. The atonement can't work on those that don't know about it? Assumption that I guess your husband is trying to point is that there should be three places. Thats where the Kingdoms of Glory come into play (I don't know if your Husband has been taught the whole Celestial, Terrestial, and Telestial).

The Spirit world is a place for the Atonement to take part in everybodys lives, either those that haven't had the chance, or those that have had the chance and rejected it. They still get a second chance to accept Christ, the Plan, and the Atonement. Thats the point of the Spirit world. Its not a judgement state (in the full sense of the word). At this point of time you still are pretty much the same person you were on this earth. (Just no body). Its a waiting state. Its not a judgement. And thus no a weeping and wailing state. Because you aren't remembering all your pass sins at this point. You are still making choices and trying to progress.

[SueMazza]

Thanks to all!

The B of M scripture--can't remember it now--that talks about the Paradise/Spirit Prison is the problem he's having. he doesn't understand why those who never heard the Gospel would be weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth, just the same as those who heard the Gospel and were not righteous.

I could have the players totally wrong here, but it's the one in which Alma (?) sees the vision of where the spirits go after this life and it's very clear that all those in spirit Prison weep, wail, etc., and he my husband gets that for those who have not been righteous, but it seems too harsh for those who never had a chance to hear the Gospel.

My husband is fine with the concept of the pre-mortal life and the three degrees of glory, but he can't get past the fact that the "bad" would be lumped together with the ones who didn't know any better, and that ALL of them would weep, wail, etc., as the scripture says. He thinks it's too harsh for someone who has prayed his whole life, even been baptized into whatever religion he was raised, prayed to God, tried to follow his example in life, gave to the poor and needy and did so with a good heart, always tried to emulate Christ, repented of his sins,etc., and then he gets dumped in with the robbers, and the liars and those who just generally didn't believe in Christ--and then spends his time there weeping and wailing and gnashing his teeth, when he never had any other choice. It seems to contradict a gospel that is generally very fair.

[tubaloth]

I assume this is the scripture in question

Alma 40

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

I guess I can kind of see the confusion here. (And I guess I give props to your husband in seeing it), but I'll try to explain it how I see it, I hope others correct me if I am off.

Lets recap ----> Earth life, then death, Spirit world, those in spirit prison are those with out the gospel. So far so good.

So because those in spirit prison are those that are without the gospel get the chance to be taught the gospel (some a second time).

But at the end of all of this (Near the time of Judgment) people are going to fall into three groups (really they are heading to the different kingdoms of glory). I think so for so good.

The lowest kingdom (Telestial) are for those that reject the Atonement, Christ, the Plan of Salvation.

Section 76 teaches this about those going to the Telestial Kingdom

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

Because they reject the Atonement they have to pay for their own sins. This being "thrust down to hell" is what Alma is talking about. This is when they are sent to Outer Darkness for a time to pay the price of breaking a Telestial Law (because nobody can pay the price of a Celestial Law expect Christ). I assume you understand Outer Darkness, it is another place people go, after judgment. Alma is talking about people going there for a time until they are resurrected and receive there kingdom (being the Telestial). From re-reading the verses in Alma he seems to be talking about the two

extremes, the super rightous and the super wicked, but there are others that fall in between these.

So your husband is correct, that this is does not include those without the knowledge of the gospel. This is a pretty much the start of the punishment for those going to the Telestial Kingdom. Others (those that haven't heard of the gospel) go to the Celestial Kingdom, those that accept the Gospel the second time (after having it beeing give to them already) go the middle kingdom Terrestial.

Hope that helps?

Edited November 28, 2009 by tubaloth

[NeuroTypical]

Why do the righteous go one place (paradise), but the sinners AND those who have never had a chance to accept the Gospel go to the same place,i.e. spirit prison. It seems so unfair that the those who didn't know any better are with the ones that are "weeping and wailing" and gnashing their teeth.

I'll take a shot at it:

First, remember that paradise and spirit prison are temporary places, not our final destination. Second, remember that the people in paradise are not idle - they're working for the good of those in spirit prison. Christ organized folks in paradise to “carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men”. So it's not like the good non-Christians of the world are just stuck with all the jerks and that's the end of it. And it's not like the people in paradise get to sit there idle, sheltered from all the 'unbelievers'.

Spirit prison is a place like earth - full of wicked, righteous, good and bad. Agency exists in spirit prison. You can still make important decisions about your eternal state there. Paradise is for the people who have already chosen.

McConkie floats this notion: "spirits may progress from one level to another as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them"

Does that help?

LM

[Kishkumen_Called]

Time out. I have a number of issues with your statements.

This being "thrust down to hell" is what Alma is talking about. This is when they are sent to Outer Darkness for a time to pay the price of breaking a Telestial Law (because nobody can pay the price of a Celestial Law expect Christ).

First, Telestial behavior does not mean going to Outer Darkness, even for a day trip. Joseph Smith was very clear that Outer Darkness was only for those who merited it (sufficient light & knowledge and then rejection of Jesus Christ). Any and ALL punishment for those who merit a degree of glory takes place in Spirit Prison - there is no other doctrine or statement to justify any other conclusion. It is not given for us to know how those who merit Outer Darkness are treated.

This is a pretty much the start of the punishment for those going to the Telestial Kingdom.

With the exception of those going to Outer Darkness, all after-life punishment starts and ends in Spirit Prison. There is no continued punishment. That is why those who merit the Lesser Kingdoms have to stay in there for longer - they have their repentance to work out. Once they have sufficiently repented and are granted a degree of glory, the Lord tells us:

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Heb 10:17

The Lord does not hold our sins over our heads for eternity. How would that be a merciful God? Once we pay the price, we move on, clean slate; just like here.

Others (those that haven't heard of the gospel) go to the Celestial Kingdom

This only applies if they accept the gospel. Prior ignorance during life is not an automatic "Go to the Celestial Kingdom" card. They will have to accept Christ as their Savior, work out their salvation, then they may progress. Again, they have to make the choice to follow the Savior, even if they were ignorant of the gospel during life.

those that accept the Gospel the second time (after having it beeing give to them already) go the middle kingdom Terrestial.

That's the Lord's call. He's given us His guidelines for how we are to live our lives, but He reserves judgement. I'm sure I will find people that I thought were absolutely crappy Mormons in the Celestial Kingdom and people I thought were fabulous members not making the grade. All I'm told is what I must do - how He judges them is way beyond any of us.

[Kishkumen_Called]

Sue

I think your husband's fundamental issue is "why should those who are ignorant of the law be held responsible and punished as if they knew the law?" It seems to me we all have been dancing around this idea. His fundamental beef is "how could the Lord be so unjust and un-merciful?"

I have a few thoughts:

1 - we are all held responsible to the light and knowledge we have, be it little or great. Those who ignorant of the gospel still must repent, given what they knew to be right (even if they didn't accept it). The ignorant are not necessarily innocent!

2- I believe that your husband is applying the "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth" too overly broad. I believe that statement applies to those reject Christ and must take on their own repentance. This is my opinion only.

3 - It's not unreasonable to think that different levels of righteousness can co-exist in the same place. Just like those who do not make and keep temple-level covenants do not enjoy going to the temple, those who have not made the necessary covenants and ordinances will be kept from Spirit Paradise until they do.

4 - Finally, as in all matters, it's a matter of faith. Even if none of our explanations make sense or quiet his concerns, he can either put aside his doubt and pray that the Lord will open his heart to understand His doctrine or your husband won't. I know for myself, I have plenty of questions/issues, but for now, it's enough for me to know that the Savior has my best interest and He will give me what I need to know, when I need to know it. Has your husband asked the Lord to quiet his fears, even if his understanding is not yet complete? In my mind, this is a necessary step, because even if your husband finds an explantion that he accepts, he won't be at peace with the idea until the Spirit confirms the truth of it.

Cheers

[Flyonthewall]

Here is what LDS.org has to say about Spirit Prison/Hell:

Hell

Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Additional Information

Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85).

Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36–38; 76:28–33). Sons of perdition are those who receive "no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).

Many LDS view "Hell" and "Outer Darkness" as the same. The difference being one is a temporary place, the other is permanent. Spirit prison becomes "hell" for those that do not repent and must pay the price of their own sins. When they are released from "hell" or spirit prison, they inherit a kingdom of glory, where as sons of perdition go to Outer Darkness, which is more of the same.