What is murder?

[LostSheep]

The scriptures don't seem to be clear on murder...I was hoping that someone could clear it up for me. The following questions aren't structured very well. Just question after question.

If you murder, can you really not be forgiven? Under any circumstances?

Where, if anywhere, in the bible does justify killing soldiers in battle?

Where, if anywhere, in the bible does justify killing in self defense?

Where, if anywhere, in the bible does justify killing to deal with criminals?

And what about all those people in the scriptures like Paul and Alma, that killed people, and then ended up being the best missionaries ever? Are they going to hell? I'm really confused. What is murder? Is it ever justified? Are there exceptions?

[Vanhin]

If you have entered the new and everlasting covenant, and have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, meaning your calling and election is made sure, there is no forgiveness for the shedding of innocent blood at that point. (See D&C 132)

The Anti-Nephi-Lehi's are an example of a people who had murdered and been forgiven. Because they had been forgiven once for their sin, they feared to commit it again, so they buried their weapons of war. (Alma 24:17-26)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Wingnut]

In the Bible only, or also in the Book of Mormon?

[ryanh]

See The Miracle of Forgiveness. Elder Kimball does address unforgivable sins in one of the chapters. Shedding of innocent blood appears to be one of the keys to what is forgivable and what is not.

[Misshalfway]

It's what I want to do to the neighbors dog who keeps leaving poopie biscuits on my lawn!

[john doe]

It's what I want to do to the neighbors dog who keeps leaving poopie biscuits on my lawn!

That's not murder, that's keeping the neighborhood free of unwanted problems.

[Just_A_Guy]

The scriptures don't seem to be clear on murder...I was hoping that someone could clear it up for me. The following questions aren't structured very well. Just question after question.

If you murder, can you really not be forgiven? Under any circumstances?

As I understand it, only through the shedding of your own blood as an atonement. (This isn't current LDS doctrine--just the teaching of some LDS leaders in days gone by--but I personally subscribe to the idea.)

I personally doubt the anti-Nephi-Lehies had the requisite mental state to engage in murder, prior to their conversion. But that's just opinion, and I can't really back it up with anything.

And what about all those people in the scriptures like Paul and Alma, that killed people, and then ended up being the best missionaries ever?

We have no record of Paul or Alma killing anyone. Paul stood by while others killed Stephen; and Alma confesses to having committed spiritual murder (by turning people against the Church).

There are instances in the scriptures of otherwise righteous individuals killing (Moses and Ammon being the first examples who come to mind), but not all killing is murder. FWIW, check out Wikipedia's entries on "murder" and "manslaughter". That may give you an idea of how secular law distinguishes between different types of killing.

[LostSheep]

FWIW, check out Wikipedia's entries on "murder" and "manslaughter".

Lol. If wikipedia is how god wants us to define murder, then perhaps I'll go edit it to fit my needs.

My point is, where in the scriptures is there a distinction between murder, manslaughter and self defense, or the defense of a country?

[Vort]

The scriptures don't seem to be clear on murder...I was hoping that someone could clear it up for me. The following questions aren't structured very well. Just question after question.

If you murder, can you really not be forgiven? Under any circumstances?

Where, if anywhere, in the bible does justify killing soldiers in battle?

Where, if anywhere, in the bible does justify killing in self defense?

Where, if anywhere, in the bible does justify killing to deal with criminals?

And what about all those people in the scriptures like Paul and Alma, that killed people, and then ended up being the best missionaries ever? Are they going to hell? I'm really confused. What is murder? Is it ever justified? Are there exceptions?

"Murder" is not well-defined in scripture. I am coming to believe that it is largely culturally defined.

The standard and obvious definition of murder is the intentional and wrongful taking of a human life. All three elements must be present for the killing to be murder:

• The killing must be intentional, not accidental, even if your intent was to cause bodily harm. (In most western countries, killing someone while you are beating him up is considered murder, but historically this is not necessarily so; cf Numbers 35 for a Biblical definition of manslaughter. It's actually more complicated than this, since you have to decide whether the beating was legal or not before you can judge the severity of the killing, but the bottom line is it wasn't capital murder unless the killer intended to cause death.)
• The killing must be wrongful. Killing in self-defense or in the performance of your legitimate duties (including soldiering) has almost never been considered murder.
• Obviously, the killing must be of a human. Killing a dog, a horse, or a baboon is not murder, regardless of what PETA might say.

So if you kill your sister's or daughter's rapist, is it murder? In our western culture, it certainly is, unless you kill him during the actual act and in an effort to protect your sister. In other cultures, this may not have been the case.

I suspect that God judges murder based on the condition of the heart. Nephi killed Laban seemingly in cold blood while he lay in a drunken stupor, but it was at the direct command of God. Was it murder? By the above definition, it obviously was not, since nothing can be "wrongful" that God commands. But from a divine viewpoint, I suspect the key is: Was Nephi's heart right before God? If you intentionally take an otherwise innocent human life and can maintain purity of heart, you are not guilty of murder. Otherwise, you are.

(Incidentally, this is precisely why I consider most elective abortions of a healthy fetus to be murder, even though I realize the Church does not currently classify it as such. I cannot believe that someone can kill her unborn child purely to avoid the consequences of her voluntary sexual activity and yet maintain purity of heart before God.)

[Just_A_Guy]

Lol. If wikipedia is how god wants us to define murder, then perhaps I'll go edit it to fit my needs.

My point is, where in the scriptures is there a distinction between murder, manslaughter and self defense, or the defense of a country?

In the text of the sixth commandment itself. The original Hebrew uses a very specific word, and that word (like the English term "murder") linguistically does not encompass killings performed in the defense of self or country.

There should be no further need to defend these activities and those who engage in them, unless or until you can provide additional evidence that the Lord specifically disapproves of these activities. Nevertheless, here's a starting point for you regarding defensive war.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Moksha]

My point is, where in the scriptures is there a distinction between murder, manslaughter and self defense, or the defense of a country?

The distinction between murder and manslaughter is a legal one that did not arise out of the Bible. Ancient Jews in the Old Testament said that God ordered a number of illegal acts on their competitors, among which was murder.

[Justice]

To me, murder is killing another person without justifiable cause.

What is justifiable cause?

I don't think I want to attempt a list, but I think generally it is killing someone accidentally, in self defense, or when you believe you have no other option.

[Vort]

The distinction between murder and manslaughter is a legal one that did not arise out of the Bible. Ancient Jews in the Old Testament said that God ordered a number of illegal acts on their competitors, among which was murder.

Whether the distinction between murder and manslaughter arose from the Bible, I don't know, but manslaughter is certainly specified in the Bible as distinct from capital murder.