repentance

[mileys]

My son died 8 months ago, want to do his temple work, he was a selfless person, had been dealt a lot of hard hands in this life, he was baptized believed in god and wanted his little girl to be raised mormon, when he died he was struggling with alcoholism,pornography and smoking, he was trying to straighten out his life when he died, why is it said it is a lot harder to repent or get over vices after you die and is 1 year long enough in heaven time when learning is so accelerated, I have pondered about this for months, anyone know why it is?

[Gwen]

i've always been told part of the reason it's so much harder to repent there is that you have no body to satisfy the cravings. the desires, behaviors and patterns go with us but no body to deal with it.

i would assume 1 yr is sufficient, it's what the lord asks and i can trust him on it.

sounds to me, from what little is here, that this is one of those times you should seek to feel at peace and trust the lord. when the time comes have his work done in the temple, know you are doing all you can for him here. god knows his heart and they will work things out between them. it's one of those occasions that call for faith.

i'm sorry for your loss.

[bytor2112]

How much do I love my two sons? More than my limited vocabulary can describe. How much more does our Father in Heaven love each of us....more than we can comprehend. Heavenly Father wants to save ALL of HIS children and knows each of us intimately and I believe HE will be so much more merciful than we can understand. Be comforted....we will all end up where we desire...including your son. I am sorry for your loss.

[Wingnut]

There's not really a way for you to know when (or even if) your son has repented, so a year or more -- you may not know.

If he was baptized and already a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, though unendowed, I don't know if you can do the temple work for him. Does anyone else know?

[mileys]

Of course you can. Baptizing is the first ordinance

[pam]

If he was already baptized on earth and never excommunicated, I don't see how you can do a baptism again through proxy after his death.

[Wingnut]

I don't think the OP is talking about baptism in the temple, but rather the initiatory and endowment ordinances. What I was saying is that if the person was already a member of the Church and therefore capable of making temple covenants himself, but didn't, that that temple work may not be able to be done for him now. Any temple ordinance workers here that might be able to add some insight?

[Vort]

My son died 8 months ago, want to do his temple work, he was a selfless person, had been dealt a lot of hard hands in this life, he was baptized believed in god and wanted his little girl to be raised mormon, when he died he was struggling with alcoholism,pornography and smoking, he was trying to straighten out his life when he died, why is it said it is a lot harder to repent or get over vices after you die and is 1 year long enough in heaven time when learning is so accelerated, I have pondered about this for months, anyone know why it is?

I am so sorry for your loss. I hope never to experience what you have gone through.

I do not know the answer to your question, but it makes sense to me that if part of the reason we experience mortality is to win mastery over our physical selves, the loss of the physical self could impede gaining that mastery. But that is just my viewpoint, not a doctrine of the Church.

As for temple work, I assume that you may do his temple work any time. I can't see why this would not be the case.

[ADoyle90815]

If he was already baptized on earth and never excommunicated, I don't see how you can do a baptism again through proxy after his death.

Are you saying that if someone was excommunicated and didn't work on getting their membership back through whatever process is required before they died can't have the work done after death? I thought the whole point of temple work was to give someone a second chance.

[pam]

Yes that is my understanding.

[Vort]

Are you saying that if someone was excommunicated and didn't work on getting their membership back through whatever process is required before they died can't have the work done after death? I thought the whole point of temple work was to give someone a second chance.

You are missing Pam's point. If the young man was baptized and never excommunicated, you can't do a proxy baptism for him because he is already baptized.

Technically, I suppose Pam is wrong. You could do a proxy baptism for him. It would simply be extraneous and pointless.

[pam]

The point of temple work is to do the work for those that never had the opportunity of the blessings while on earth.

[bytor2112]

Are you saying that if someone was excommunicated and didn't work on getting their membership back through whatever process is required before they died can't have the work done after death? I thought the whole point of temple work was to give someone a second chance.

From Elder Bruce McConkie:

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world. in the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ these words are found:

Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7-9]

There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.

[Vort]

The point of temple work is to do the work for those that never had the opportunity of the blessings while on earth.

The point of temple work is to do the work for those whose work is not done.

It is not for us to judge whether a person got a sufficient opportunity during his or her lifetime, however much we may be tempted to make that determination.

[pam]

Agreed, we are saying the same thing just in different ways. But we do believe that temple work can be done for those that might never have had that opportunity while on earth. We just aren't making the determination who that might be. So we do for those who we know have never had that work...whether they actually did have the opportunity or not.

[bytor2112]

Agreed, we are saying the same thing just in different ways. But we do believe that temple work can be done for those that might never have had that opportunity while on earth.

Another McConkie quote:

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stretched his breath, mind profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied,

"Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."

He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?

[Vort]

Another McConkie quote:

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stretched his breath, mind profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied,

"Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."

He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?

His actual quote was, "He died, and she did, and it was a total and complete waste of time. There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation."

Fwiw, I do not believe that Elder McConkie's point was to pass personal judgment on this man. I think he was attempting to make a humorous yet true point that those who openly reject the gospel in this life don't suddenly have the slate wiped clean at death.

[bytor2112]

His actual quote was, "He died, and she did, and it was a total and complete waste of time. There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation."

Fwiw, I do not believe that Elder McConkie's point was to pass personal judgment on this man. I think he was attempting to make a humorous yet true point that those who openly reject the gospel in this life don't suddenly have the slate wiped clean at death.

ME too......

[mileys]

This is more of my question, first I know for a fact that if someone dies you must wait 1 year from the time they die to do their ordinances, my son had been baptized at age 8, but had no other ordinances done, of course you can do all the ordinances on everyone, including murderers, we are not the judge, my question was, I have heard it is harder to "advance" or repent without having your body and I was trying to figure out why as you would not have the physical addiction, I have gotten some good answers, but I also was pondering on the 1 year "rule" if in the spirit world we obtain knowledge and comprehend so much faster, would a year in our time be sufficient in spirit world time, or are endowments just waiting there to be taken if it takes 10 years our time? Does that make sense? A lot of the work we do for the dead is 200 years or so old, Joseph Smith said We should study death more than any other subject night and day, I guess that is what the whole gospel is about when you think of it. Anyway thanks for all the answers and hope to get more. Mileys

[mileys]

OK, Here is another thing, We are judged by our hearts and the intent of our heart, and what if a person dies young, yet had lived to be older and if they had lived longer would have turned to the gospel, only god knows the desires of your heart, also if they are "sealed" to rightous parents it is promised that they will be welded to you and will return whether in this life or the life to come. That is a promise from god, it is also promised in my patriachical blessing, another thing, there are different temptations that come to different people, depending on where they were born,and what their life circumstances are. What about children born in the Millennium where they will be grow up without sin?

[pam]

A lot of the work we do for the dead is 200 years or so old, Joseph Smith said We should study death more than any other subject night and day,

Do you have a reference for that?

[Vort]

OK, Here is another thing, We are judged by our hearts and the intent of our heart, and what if a person dies young, yet had lived to be older and if they had lived longer would have turned to the gospel, only god knows the desires of your heart, also if they are "sealed" to rightous parents it is promised that they will be welded to you and will return whether in this life or the life to come. That is a promise from god, it is also promised in my patriachical blessing, another thing, there are different temptations that come to different people, depending on where they were born,and what their life circumstances are. What about children born in the Millennium where they will be grow up without sin?

I have no idea, mileys. It is my opinion that no one else knows this, either. If someone does, it is because God has revealed it to him or her as a private matter, and s/he is not likely to be telling anyone about it.

Two things we know:

• God is just.
• God is merciful.

If we do our best, we will be fine. If we fall short of our best -- which we all do -- we depend on God's grace. Whatever your son's problems in life, my understanding is that repentance and exaltation are still available to him. Do not despair. Just live your life well and assume the best.

[mileys]

From Elder Bruce McConkie:

If you read in D&C 137:7-9 it states "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of god. " It goes on. Anyway, I think the key point is permitted to Tarry, what would they had done had they lived longer? If I would have died at 18 years of age, I would not be going to the celestial kingdom, I kind of knew the gospel had been baptized, but did not live the gospel whatsoever, since then it is a different story. God knows our heart and what we are and were capable of had we lived longer. He knows the number of our days. Thank you for your quotes, this discussion has helped me learn more. Mileys

[mileys]

Do you have a reference for that?

I will find it momentarilly

[mileys]

I will find it momentarilly

I have read it in a book I have a few times, I will find it I thought it was in The teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, I can't find it, but I will! and I will post it.