A faithful view of faith

[Hemidakota]

I have traveled a great deal and have conversed with many peoples on many continents on the subject of religion. I have only come across one group that teaches that it is not necessary to be faithful to G-d in all he asks of them. This group openly teaches that nothing in the next life of benefit has any bearing on loyalty and faithfulness to G-d. I find this teaching odd in the landscape of religious thinking. I have met with many native aboriginal groups in North and South America; I have met with the most humble Buddhist in Asia. I have been invited into private homes of Muslims to join in weeklong religious celebrations and address devout members of their faith at Friday prayers at their mosques.

You are not the first to accuse me of arrogance and lack of humility – but of interest to me because all that have come to that conclusion are of the same Christian sect and belief structure concerning being faithful. You have every right to your opinions. I find such things most strange.

I have tried to probe your thinking directly concerning the precise elements I do not understand. I am well aware of scripture – It is your thinking I am trying to find some resemblance of reason to come to some understanding. Yes – I have tried other methods that you ignore.

I have met very few that believe G-d does not care for them and that they love G-d – all religions make that claim. Many say, as you do that they would do anything to be closer to G-d. I find it interesting that you are not interested in making an oath and covenant to be faithful to G-d. I assume, if you are married, that you had no problem taking an oath and covenant (called marriage) to be faithful to your husband. I assume that you understand that being obedient to such an oath and covenant is important and necessary for a long term relationship with your husband. But you do not want any such thing with G-d or believe such a thing real between you and him – despite the fact that scripture uses marriage as the example of covenant with G-d. Plus you say I am not humble and not loving for being bewildered with an entire religious group declaring they love G-d but that are unwilling to commit loyalty by oath and covenant and back it up by word and deed and willing to place such trust in their G-d as someone would trust marriage.

You are correct – I am not seeking such a relationship with G-d. I seek a covenantal relationship. But I am curious with how you come to believe such a thing. Please note that I have not gone to an evangelical web site to ask my question but only ask the question because you are here – at an LDS web site – knowing that LDS believe in being loyal and faithful by covenant. What did you expect? That I have no curiosity about why you believe as you do and that I give you no opportunity to speak truthfully of it?

The Traveler

There is truth in that statement Traveler. But it is only through grace of GOD in the end that will saved them and that is done by the blood spilt [atonement] by our beloved Savior. There is but one simple act they must do to enter in the lower kingdom, confess that Jesus is the Christ.

Now having such great opportunity in this life will pass them by in the next life by those circumstances or beliefs they have chosen in mortality.

Agency is the key here and they can choose their own path to what they suspect is the eternal reward.

The faithful or the full repentance children, will receive more than them.

[Gatorman]

And, here is a thing to remember. As great and as much better than 'now' as the lowest kingdom is supposed to be, it is still a punishment to be stuck in it versus the greater glories and the presence of our Heavenly Father and our Savior. So, tying this and the judgement thread together, we WILL be punished if we do not practice our faith sufficiently.

[Traveler]

And, here is a thing to remember. As great and as much better than 'now' as the lowest kingdom is supposed to be, it is still a punishment to be stuck in it versus the greater glories and the presence of our Heavenly Father and our Savior. So, tying this and the judgement thread together, we WILL be punished if we do not practice our faith sufficiently.

Your point of view is interesting. For me the Telestial kingdom is a matter of the most that G-d can reward rather than the most that G-d would punish.

The Traveler

[Gatorman]

Your point of view is interesting. For me the Telestial kingdom is a matter of the most that G-d can reward rather than the most that G-d would punish.

The Traveler

So, what is the difference between the witholding of great rewards and the use of just punishments. We use those terms, but, I try to teach my children differently.

Our actions/choices of results/outcomes. If we 'choose' to be faithful, the outcome is a great reward. If we choose to be basically good, the outcome is a basic reward, but not as great a reward. If we choose to be evil, then the outcome is a lesser result.

Heavely Father rewards us appropriately for our choices. He rewards the faithful with the promises he has given of returning to him, etc. He rewards the wicked with the promises he made to them. They chose those paths and he keeps his promise to them.

[Traveler]

There is truth in that statement Traveler. But it is only through grace of GOD in the end that will saved them and that is done by the blood spilt [atonement] by our beloved Savior. There is but one simple act they must do to enter in the lower kingdom, confess that Jesus is the Christ.

Now having such great opportunity in this life will pass them by in the next life by those circumstances or beliefs they have chosen in mortality.

Agency is the key here and they can choose their own path to what they suspect is the eternal reward.

The faithful or the full repentance children, will receive more than them.

G-d gives us his commandments because of his grace and love for us - to reject his commandments and to refuse to be loyal and keep his commandments is to reject and refuse his love and grace. It does not matter where you go with the logic - being loyal and keeping G-d's commandments enables his love and grace in us and a rejecting (even a little bit by saying it is not necessary for salvation) is a rejection of his love and grace towards us to bring us to salvation.

But you point that all things from G-d to man are given as gifts because of G-d's grace, is correct. We could not choose to accept his commandments and thus his grace if by his grace he did not give these things freely to us all.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

So, what is the difference between the witholding of great rewards and the use of just punishments. We use those terms, but, I try to teach my children differently.

Our actions/choices of results/outcomes. If we 'choose' to be faithful, the outcome is a great reward. If we choose to be basically good, the outcome is a basic reward, but not as great a reward. If we choose to be evil, then the outcome is a lesser result.

Heavely Father rewards us appropriately for our choices. He rewards the faithful with the promises he has given of returning to him, etc. He rewards the wicked with the promises he made to them. They chose those paths and he keeps his promise to them.

Perhaps when we see things in rewards and punishments for us we become “selfish”. In reality I do not believe the rewards of G-d are just about the benefits (or if you will, punishments) to us. In other words it is not about what we get or do not get. It is about giving ourselves for the benefit of others.

The Traveler

[Gatorman]

I understand what you mean. My point is this, and it does tie to the other thread. How can Heavenly Father 'punish' people? My suggestion is, he doesn't. People receive the promise Heavenly Father has made of the actions and choices they make. So, the 'people' of Egypt allowed a wicked man to rule them. They used and abused the slaves. The 'promise' for such treatment of the people was what they were rewarded with. They asked for such a 'reward' with their choices and actions. And, yes, innocents often suffer because of the choices and actions of 'evil/mean/mistaken/whatever' people. Heavenly Father's promises can not be withheld once he has made them.

[bmy-]

Belief:

- You have complete belief that Jesus will make it to the other side. You want so much to get to the other side with him because Father is there and you know it is where he wants you to be and it is where you want to be as well.

Faith:

- All of the above. But, in addition to that, you jump in the wheelbarrow and follow Jesus' instructions closely so you don't tip the thing over.

That's an interesting analogy.. but you already assume that I can believe he can make it across. I'm not sure true belief and doubt can co-exist. That is to say.. you only believe something because the evidence convinced you that it was correct. There was no choice about it.

Would you allow an inland taipan (snake) to bite you and ignore medical attention just because you believe the Bible and the Church? Sure we all struggle with disbelief at times.. or so it seems.. but do most people really believe it? Enough to put it to the test?

[JudoMinja]

That's an interesting analogy.. but you already assume that I can believe he can make it across. I'm not sure true belief and doubt can co-exist. That is to say.. you only believe something because the evidence convinced you that it was correct. There was no choice about it.

Would you allow an inland taipan (snake) to bite you and ignore medical attention just because you believe the Bible and the Church? Sure we all struggle with disbelief at times.. or so it seems.. but do most people really believe it? Enough to put it to the test?

Of course belief and doubt cannot co-exist. You are very correct. This is why the scriptures tell us that faith casts out all fear. Doubt and fear are one and the same. When it is present in our hearts, we are incapable of exercising full faith. When faith is present in our hearts, we will not doubt.

[Guest]

That's an interesting analogy.. but you already assume that I can believe he can make it across. I'm not sure true belief and doubt can co-exist. That is to say.. you only believe something because the evidence convinced you that it was correct. There was no choice about it.

Would you allow an inland taipan (snake) to bite you and ignore medical attention just because you believe the Bible and the Church? Sure we all struggle with disbelief at times.. or so it seems.. but do most people really believe it? Enough to put it to the test?

Actually, my godmother was like that. She refuses medical attention because she believes God will cure her. I kid you not. You know what's more? Something went wrong on her leg (I was too young to remember the medical term). It caused her leg to swell up twice its normal size. She had it for months - untreated. My uncle is a doctor and begged her to have him treat it. She refused. Her reason? It is because of MY sins that she is punished. So, she has to bear the burden of a bad leg to pay for her god-daughter's sins. Her leg never cured. She died a few years later (not because of the leg). Gave me a guilt-trip, that one!

Faith? You decide.

[Misshalfway]

Of course belief and doubt cannot co-exist. You are very correct. This is why the scriptures tell us that faith casts out all fear. Doubt and fear are one and the same. When it is present in our hearts, we are incapable of exercising full faith. When faith is present in our hearts, we will not doubt.

I don't know if I quite see it the same way. I mean demonstrating courage doesn't mean you don't feel the fear. You know? I think its the same way with doubt and fear in the spiritual realms. Fear and doubt are part of the human fallen condition. We all have to grapple with them. Faith is one of the options we have. But I am not sure that feeling fear means we don't have faith. Faith is a choice I can make inspite of what I feel. The absense of fear is perhaps when faith is matured. But even then it comes to all of us in different forms and we all must chose faith again.

[Hemidakota]

And, here is a thing to remember. As great and as much better than 'now' as the lowest kingdom is supposed to be, it is still a punishment to be stuck in it versus the greater glories and the presence of our Heavenly Father and our Savior. So, tying this and the judgement thread together, we WILL be punished if we do not practice our faith sufficiently.

Concur...for me, anything less than being in GOD's presence is hell.

[Justice]

Would you allow an inland taipan (snake) to bite you and ignore medical attention just because you believe the Bible and the Church? Sure we all struggle with disbelief at times.. or so it seems.. but do most people really believe it? Enough to put it to the test?

If you do very little your whole life for Christ, and then are bitten, why would you expect your lack of faith to become faith in the hour of need?

If you give your life to Christ, meaning you think about Him every day, pray continually to Father in His name, show charity to your fellow men, and demonstrate sincere repentance each day of your life, then:

1. that a snake bit you wouldn't be a concern.

2. if your work on earth was not finished you could be healed in a moments notice.

[Justice]

I don't know if I quite see it the same way. I mean demonstrating courage doesn't mean you don't feel the fear. You know? I think its the same way with doubt and fear in the spiritual realms. Fear and doubt are part of the human fallen condition. We all have to grapple with them. Faith is one of the options we have. But I am not sure that feeling fear means we don't have faith. Faith is a choice I can make inspite of what I feel. The absense of fear is perhaps when faith is matured. But even then it comes to all of us in different forms and we all must chose faith again.

I think his point is that fear wants to hold you captive and thwart any action on your part. When you act in the face of fear, it become courage, then fear is overcome... even though it is felt

The same applies toward doubt and faith. Both cannot exist. If you doubt you will not act. Acting when doubt is present becomes faith... and that leads to knowledge.

[Guest]

If you do very little your whole life for Christ, and then are bitten, why would you expect your lack of faith to become faith in the hour of need?

If you give your life to Christ, meaning you think about Him every day, pray continually to Father in His name, show charity to your fellow men, and demonstrate sincere repentance each day of your life, then:

1. that a snake bit you wouldn't be a concern.

2. if your work on earth was not finished you could be healed in a moments notice.

I see your point in this Justice, but on #2... you make it seem like you will be healed without having to do anything. God put doctors on earth to do his healing or Him, I imagine.

[Traveler]

I understand what you mean. My point is this, and it does tie to the other thread. How can Heavenly Father 'punish' people? My suggestion is, he doesn't. People receive the promise Heavenly Father has made of the actions and choices they make. So, the 'people' of Egypt allowed a wicked man to rule them. They used and abused the slaves. The 'promise' for such treatment of the people was what they were rewarded with. They asked for such a 'reward' with their choices and actions. And, yes, innocents often suffer because of the choices and actions of 'evil/mean/mistaken/whatever' people. Heavenly Father's promises can not be withheld once he has made them.

I agree very much with what you are saying but I would like to add one little thought. Righteousness can be its own reward. Likewise it may be possible that rejecting righteousness can also be its own punishment.

The Traveler

[JudoMinja]

I don't know if I quite see it the same way. I mean demonstrating courage doesn't mean you don't feel the fear. You know? I think its the same way with doubt and fear in the spiritual realms. Fear and doubt are part of the human fallen condition. We all have to grapple with them. Faith is one of the options we have. But I am not sure that feeling fear means we don't have faith. Faith is a choice I can make inspite of what I feel. The absense of fear is perhaps when faith is matured. But even then it comes to all of us in different forms and we all must chose faith again.

I think his point is that fear wants to hold you captive and thwart any action on your part. When you act in the face of fear, it become courage, then fear is overcome... even though it is felt

The same applies toward doubt and faith. Both cannot exist. If you doubt you will not act. Acting when doubt is present becomes faith... and that leads to knowledge.

I could not have said it better. I was going to reply to Misshalfway's post, but you answered it for me. We will never fully be rid of our fears and doubts while on this earth, because as Misshalfway said, fear and doubt are a part of the mortal condition. However, exercising our faith will cast out our fear, just as exercising courage will. The fear is still there, until we take the step to cast it aside.