prisonchaplain Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 IS PUBLIC RELIGIOUS EXPRESSION RUDE? Is it rude to say, “Merry Christmas,” because the recipient of your intended blessing may be Jewish or a Jehovah’s Witness? Can we foist upon the public (roughly seven percent of whom do not believe there is a god) religious displays like the Ten Commandments? Just what are the proper limits of civic religion in a country that is, by broad definition, 80 percent Christian, yet which has codified in its highest law that government must not establish religion? There are examples of extreme solutions on both the religious and secular sides of the spectrum of this conundrum. One recent columnist recalled the days when, as a Jewish youngster in public school, he had to sing “Onward Christian Soldiers,” with his classmates. Then, of course, there’s the school principle in a nearby district that canceled the student production of “A Christmas Carol,” to prevent any potential religious themes from causing offense. Perhaps an anecdote from my high school days in Seattle, circa 1980, will demonstrate how far we have slid. Ours was an honors English class, and we had just finished reading about a character that knew what was right, but had bowed to public opinion. Our teacher asked us to write a short essay comparing the incident with Pilate’s washing of his hands. Afterwards, one student raised her hand and complained since she was an atheist it was unfair to demand that she have knowledge of a religious story in order to answer a test question. The teacher responded that anyone who hoped to obtain even a rudimentary understanding of English literature must become familiar with biblical stories, as well as Greek and Roman mythology. In the last twenty-five years have we become some fearful of our own heritage that we embrace ignorance as a solution? Ironically, during my six-years as a university campus missionary in South Korea, I had many non-Christian students attending my English Bible studies. When I asked them why they came, they responded that the Bible was one of the greatest pieces of literature in the English language, and they knew it was an important part of becoming fluent. Back to my original questions. Is it rude to say, “Merry Christmas?” Private retailers can order their clerks however they please. However, common sense should rule in our general social interactions. If I wish a Jew, “Merry Christmas,” she will probably say, “Thanks, but I am Jewish.” In which case, I will respond, “Oh, well Happy Hanukah,” or simply, “Then, God bless you.” If he is a Jehovah’s Witness he will probably delight in telling me so, and inquiring as to whether I want to know why he does not celebrate Christmas. By the way, the other 98 out of a hundred people will probably say, “Thank you. Merry Christmas to you too.” As for the 10 Commandments, it appears the courts are nixing the public display of them. I am not too concerned. We see the Decalogue’s influence in many of our laws anyway. Similarly, there is no need for school-arranged prayer, so long as religious clubs continue to have the same access to facilities and scheduling as other groups. My ultimate concern in this whole discussion of religion in the public square is that the solutions embraced by France, Malaysia, and others might take root here. These countries discourage public displays of religion, and in some cases have criminalizes efforts to proselytize. Yes, I know that most people dislike having strangers coming to their door offering religious presentations. I know that the “We’re right and you’re wrong,” message that seems to be communicated can be offensive. There is even a phrase in the Bible about “the offense of the cross.” Yet, we are a nation built upon the free practice of religion. For a significant number of Christians, and some other faith groups, recruiting new believers is central to their spirituality. How will America balance free religious practice with the government’s interest in protecting minority groups and promoting civic harmony? While the matter will continue to be fine-tuned, I much prefer the spiritual free market to religious protectionism. //s// Tommy Ellis Quote
lisajo Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 Very Interesting I must say! We do end up trading the symbolisms of religon, for religous freedom.............. Does that make sence? To have religous freedom we cant offend other religons with our own religous beliefs? Did i get that right or am i just up way to late past my bed time? Very Interesting post! Quote
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 I do believe that this is becoming more of a problem all the time but our eyes have not been open to see it. Now that we know about the problem what can be done? Quote
Josie Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 "Freedom of Religion" like many other of our rights in this country, in many ways seem to get trampled under foot. The more wicked the people get, the harder it will become for all of us to maintain these freedoms. Satan is working very hard in this world right now, to limit our freedoms as much as possible, so he can reign and drag as many of us away with him as he can. Someone threw out some thoughts about Satan, that really helped me understand his anger and frustration over us. Satan will never have a body, he will never know what it is like to feel physical pain or joy, take a swim or run a marathon. He will never hold a grandchild on his lap or have a child to kiss him on the cheek and say, "I love you, Daddy." Satan will never feel the joy of entering a temple of God and feeling the spirit bare witness to him that what he is doing is right. If someone is offended by me innocently wishing them a "Merry Christmas" that is their problem. This land is blessed by our Father in heaven, it is his choice land, and as long as I have the freedom to celebrate his birth, life, and resurrection, and be thankful beyond what words can express for his atonement for me, I will. When I cannot express my beliefs in the open, I will express them in my heart to my Father in Heaven. I am thankful for every day of freedom I have in this country. We sometimes feel like we are loosing freedoms and rights that we once had, but we must remember, we have it so much better and have so much more freedom than any other country in the world. Wicked men desort and tear down that which is good and right, but we know that they will not prevail. This is God's world and His promised land and He will not have his plan distorted and run amuck by the evil doings of men. They may have their way for a while, but he will step in and He will set things right. The day will come when all will know who God is and that he will prevail over one and all and the word will take notice. Please don't take me wrong, I am not saying that anyone that does not believe as I do is wicked. I am saying that wicked men that take away our rights to promote their own good, will know what they have done. Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 The thing I don't get is why, as christians, we are to have our feelings and sensibilities trampled on... and our being offended takes not only a back seat to the manorities feelings... but that we are considered evil for having feelings and beliefs and wanting to enjoy them... with our majority of fellow christians in our cities... But they are to also have the right to put porn and imorality up in our faces and the faces of our children and call it equality?... where is our equality??? we are given the shaft every which way... It all just doesn't make sense... Quote
Guest Ari 2 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 The Court's early rulings--we are a Christian nation: Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 1892 Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 1824, Supreme Court of Massachusetts The People v. Ruggles, 1811, Supreme Court, State of New York Commonwealth v. Abner Kneeland, 1838, Supreme Court of Massachusetts Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 1844, United States Supreme Court John M'Creery's Lessee v. Allender, 1799, Supreme Court of Maryland Runkel v. Winemiller, 1799, Supreme Court of Maryland The Commonwealth v. Sharpless and others, 1815, Supreme Court of Pennsylvania Davis v. Beason, 1889, United States Supreme Court Murphy v. Ramsey & Others, 1885, United States Supreme Court City of Charleston v. S.A. Benjamin, 1846, Supreme Court of South Carolina The Commonwealth v. Wolf, 1817, Supreme Court of Pennsylvania United States v. Macintosh, 1931, United States Supreme Court Zorach v. Clauson, 1952, United States Supreme Court _______________________ Lest we forget our Christian heritage! Isn't this the reason we're fighting in the Middle East? We are targeted, as a Christian nation...our Christian president is branded "the great satan." 'Tis the Holy War, which will not cease until the end of time. If we do not stand up as Christians, and get involved in the legislative process, everything that our founding fathers fought and died for will be obliterated, and we won't have any recourse but to fight the battle of the bullit, as opposed to the battle of the ballot. Quote
prisonchaplain Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Please@Nov 10 2005, 10:03 AMThe thing I don't get is why, as christians, we are to have our feelings and sensibilities trampled on... and our being offended takes not only a back seat to the manorities feelings... but that we are considered evil for having feelings and beliefs and wanting to enjoy them... with our majority of fellow christians in our cities...Answer: This came to me today...Christians, and all subgroups, are seen as the majority culture in this country. We have a tendency to cheer for the underdog. Likewise, we tend to go out of our ways to accommodate minorities. These good secular traits of our people sometimes lead to nonbelievers being appreciative of foreign religions, but dismissive of those that this country are founded on.But they are to also have the right to put porn and imorality up in our faces and the faces of our children and call it equality?... where is our equality??? we are given the shaft every which way...Rabbi Daniel Lapin offers an interesting theory on this: He says that Jews in particular, but many others as well, embrace liberalism as a means of salving their guilty spiritual consciences. People abandon the faith of their fathers (or grandfathers), and Liberalism tells them, "You can be a good person, care for the poor, the environment, minorities, etc. without having to submit to a holy God." As a result, such people have an almost allergic reaction against any public expressions of religious faith, but show extreme tolerance towards abberrant art forms, media presentations, etc.It all just doesn't make sense...←It is the guilty spiritual conscience that opposes religious expression, but tolerates immorality. Such people are not upset by foreign religious practices, because such displays do not highlight their prodigal waywardness. Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 As a result, such people have an almost allergic reaction against any public expressions of religious faith, but show extreme tolerance towards abberrant art forms, media presentations, etc.This says it so well! Quote
Josie Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 All of this is very true. None of us can allow our beliefs to lay down and die, hope no one thought I meant that. We do have to fight at the ballot box and stand up for right and what we believe. We cannot give up by any means. We must take joy in our beliefs and be thankful for them. Part of that giving of thanks is casting our votes and standing up for them. Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Josie@Nov 10 2005, 12:01 PMAll of this is very true. None of us can allow our beliefs to lay down and die, hope no one thought I meant that. We do have to fight at the ballot box and stand up for right and what we believe. We cannot give up by any means. We must take joy in our beliefs and be thankful for them. Part of that giving of thanks is casting our votes and standing up for them.←But I don't believe our votes are given correct power... but that by voting we give them numbers to manipulate..... Quote
gwell Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 My wife, daughter and I were at a resteraunt last week....We received our food and my daughter (18 months) proceeded to fold her arms....(what an example)....So I said a prayer on our food.... When I finished my short, quiet prayer I looked around and we had several people staring some with a smile and some with a look of wonderment and shock.... Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by gwell@Nov 10 2005, 12:26 PMMy wife, daughter and I were at a resteraunt last week....We received our food and my daughter (18 months) proceeded to fold her arms....(what an example)....So I said a prayer on our food....When I finished my short, quiet prayer I looked around and we had several people staring some with a smile and some with a look of wonderment and shock....←Awesome.... but like a bunch of other things... if it became too common a site... there would be a public outcry against it...SO EVERYONE... START PRAYING IN PUBLIC PLACES.... RIGHTEOUSLY OF COURSE... NOT AS THE HEATHENS DO... FOR THE VIEW OF MEN... BUT SO THAT GOD MAY SEE YOUR DEVOTION TO HIM.... Quote
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by gwell@Nov 10 2005, 12:26 PMMy wife, daughter and I were at a resteraunt last week....We received our food and my daughter (18 months) proceeded to fold her arms....(what an example)....So I said a prayer on our food....When I finished my short, quiet prayer I looked around and we had several people staring some with a smile and some with a look of wonderment and shock....←Wow that was GREAT and what a wonderful message you sent to those around you as well as your daughter. :) Quote
Fiannan Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 In a church talk I heard a long time ago the speaker asked -- "If Christianity became a crime, and we were arrested, would the prosecuter have enough evidence to convict us?" Something to keep in mind. It's interesting, I plan to do some traveling soon -- like in a couple of weeks. I think I'll buy Christmas cards in Russia because they are so beautiful (and cheap) but even though the message is in Russian, you can tell they have the Savior as the center of the card. If in Sweden you rarely get cards that have a religious context -- and they cost a lot anyway. And besides, friends and family won't ignore exotic greetings. Of course, in the USA we can still buy things of a religious nature. I would encourage people to vote with their money in the USA and buy cards and send cards ONLY with religious messages about the holidays, put up decorations that mark the holiday spirit of Jesus and do everything to advertise that -- You are a Christian! Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 Fiannan: I would encourage people to vote with their money in the USA and buy cards and send cards ONLY with religious messages about the holidays, put up decorations that mark the holiday spirit of Jesus and do everything to advertise that --you are a christian.Good idea... I do that anyway... Quote
Jason Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 Of course, what we today call Christmas was not originally a Christian holiday (which is why the Jehovah's Witness don't recognize it). Celebrating the great Sun-god Sol Invictus (sometimes lumped in with Mithras) is was the season is all about. So come all ye faithful! Let us pray that god will bring back the Sun! Quote
Ray Posted November 10, 2005 Report Posted November 10, 2005 I think I should say and do pretty much whatever I feel is right, and as long as I don’t intentionally try to do something that I know will offend other people. For instance, I will continue to use “Merry Christmas” when offering my salutations and appreciation during the Christmas season, until or unless I know someone would personally be offended by that, at which point I would say something else to that person, such as “Happy Holidays”. :) Btw, the word “holiday” originated from the phrase “holy day”, and the word “goodbye” originated from the phrase “God b’ ye”, or “God be with you”, so getting away from the influence of God in our lives wouldn’t be as easy as some people may believe. Oh, and considering what the number of the year signifies, I see Christ as the central figure in most of our lives whether everyone realizes it or not. Quote
prisonchaplain Posted November 11, 2005 Author Report Posted November 11, 2005 Of course, what we today call Christmas was not originally a Christian holiday (which is why the Jehovah's Witness don't recognize it). Of course, you are right. Most Christians celebrate Christmas as the birthday of Jesus, a time to remember his first advent, to give thanks for God's love, and, of course, to give gifts to loved ones, as well as "the least of these."Christmas is one of those innovations that the early church did successfully. Very few people indeed celebrate Dec. 25 for its pagan origins. The meanings were successfully 'baptized' with Christian theological understanding.In contrast, many Christians have come around to the Jehovah's Witness way of thinking about Halloween. The holiday is hopelessly saturated with non-Christian understandings. Some churches have chosen to host "Harvest Festivals" or "Hallelujah nights." Others forgo all recognition of the day. Perhaps we could start a branch on this string? Quote
Guest Ari 2 Posted November 11, 2005 Report Posted November 11, 2005 Just curious...2 yrs ago, I bought a nativity scene and displayed it in our front yard, but some bah humbug stole the Baby Jesus! On the radio, it was reported that kids enjoyed pulling this prank at Christmas time. Has anyone experienced this or heard about it in your part of the world?? Or is this some sort of a "conspiracy"? lol Quote
gwell Posted November 11, 2005 Report Posted November 11, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Nov 10 2005, 12:32 PM--><!--QuoteBegin-gwell@Nov 10 2005, 12:26 PMMy wife, daughter and I were at a resteraunt last week....We received our food and my daughter (18 months) proceeded to fold her arms....(what an example)....So I said a prayer on our food....When I finished my short, quiet prayer I looked around and we had several people staring some with a smile and some with a look of wonderment and shock....←Awesome.... but like a bunch of other things... if it became too common a site... there would be a public outcry against it...SO EVERYONE... START PRAYING IN PUBLIC PLACES.... RIGHTEOUSLY OF COURSE... NOT AS THE HEATHENS DO... FOR THE VIEW OF MEN... BUT SO THAT GOD MAY SEE YOUR DEVOTION TO HIM....←Well, I cant take too much credit.....quite honestly if she hadnt been there I probably would have just wolfed down my burger.....The examples that kids set are amazing....Taught me a valuable lesson anyways.... Quote
Guest bizabra Posted November 13, 2005 Report Posted November 13, 2005 Originally posted by gwell@Nov 10 2005, 11:26 AMMy wife, daughter and I were at a resteraunt last week....We received our food and my daughter (18 months) proceeded to fold her arms....(what an example)....So I said a prayer on our food....When I finished my short, quiet prayer I looked around and we had several people staring some with a smile and some with a look of wonderment and shock....←BIZ: When I was a kid, and we went out as a family to eat dinner in a restaurant or at the home of non-member friends, we would gather in the kitchen in a circle and Dad would say a blessing before we left our home. My Father felt very strongly Jesus' rebuke to the Pharisee's about praying in public, where in they are enjoined to to "pray at home in their closet". What is wrong with keeping your religious beliefs PRIVATE, esp.. when your own saviour told you to do so? Also, why did you feel the need to look around to gauge others' reactions? Quote
Guest bizabra Posted November 13, 2005 Report Posted November 13, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Nov 10 2005, 11:32 AM--><!--QuoteBegin-gwell@Nov 10 2005, 12:26 PMMy wife, daughter and I were at a resteraunt last week....We received our food and my daughter (18 months) proceeded to fold her arms....(what an example)....So I said a prayer on our food....When I finished my short, quiet prayer I looked around and we had several people staring some with a smile and some with a look of wonderment and shock....←Awesome.... but like a bunch of other things... if it became too common a site... there would be a public outcry against it...SO EVERYONE... START PRAYING IN PUBLIC PLACES.... RIGHTEOUSLY OF COURSE... NOT AS THE HEATHENS DO... FOR THE VIEW OF MEN... BUT SO THAT GOD MAY SEE YOUR DEVOTION TO HIM....←BIZ: It seems as if you are talking out of both sides of your mouth at once, Please. First, you advocate praying in public in order to make it a "common site", then you go on to claim that it is NOT for THE VIEW OF MEN. How do you reconcile this? If you are praying for "god" to see you, then why not do as my Father did and pray at home in private before you leave for the restaurant?You make no sense to me. Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 13, 2005 Report Posted November 13, 2005 BIZ: It seems as if you are talking out of both sides of your mouth at once, Please. First, you advocate praying in public in order to make it a "common site", then you go on to claim that it is NOT for THE VIEW OF MEN. How do you reconcile this? If you are praying for "god" to see you, then why not do as my Father did and pray at home in private before you leave for the restaurant?You make no sense.Good snag Biz. I guess I was thinking in a different dimension than yourself. I was seeing it as polically motivated... and also as a way of doing the right thing for Gods eyes regardless of who else was watching...Hope you start understanding me better... it is really really important to me that YOU understand me. Quote
Guest bizabra Posted November 17, 2005 Report Posted November 17, 2005 Please, I would love to hear what you think of my Fathers solution? Don't you agree it is a good idea? One that allows the believer to prayfor their meal and yet not making anyone else uncomfortable? Shouldn't the public sphere remain nuetral so all citizens can feel inclusive regardless of personal beliefs? I really can't understand why this could be a bad thing. Quote
Guest Ari 2 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Posted November 17, 2005 One's right to stay seated during the National Anthem is protected under the First Amendment, just as one's right to pray publicly. Quote
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