Mormon Church Influences Alcohol Debate

[pam]

Salt Lake City, Utah (CNN) -- For Art and Jaynie Brown, the anti-alcohol crusade began with a late-night phone call a decade ago.

"From my daughter," Art Brown explained at his Salt Lake City home. "And she simply said, 'Dad, we've been in a very serious accident.' "

The Browns rushed to the hospital where their grandchildren were taken after the crash. One of the boys was seriously injured; the other was in more dire condition.

Mormon church influences alcohol debate in Salt Lake City - CNN.com

[Dravin]

I'm sure it does, but the first half of the article doesn't tie into that very well. Parents (or others) who know people who have died in a manner influenced by alcohol go on anti-alcohol (or gun for that matter) crusades all the time, the Church doesn't really have anything to do with that.

I get the basic point, I just think its a horrible segue.

[talisyn]

It was like 2 different articles, or a article by 2 different reporters...but I've noticed this in more than a few articles lately

The bias was obvious as well. They couldn't say much about the poor man who lost his grandchild, but they could sure outnumber him in the article

[Guest Godless]

I don't see why MADD would oppose putting bars close to residential areas. Wouldn't the streets be safer if people could walk home from the bar?

[Dravin]

I don't see why MADD would oppose putting bars close to residential areas. Wouldn't the streets be safer if people could walk home from the bar?

Or at the vary least drive a shorter distance, on the other hand that might tempt more to skip a cab and think, "Well, it's only 2 miles!" It's worth spending some thought on and not dismissing out of hand though.

Of course you are going to get people who don't want drunk people wandering their streets regardless of whether its safer or not.

[Guest Godless]

Better for them to be wandering than driving.

[john doe]

Wouldn't the streets be safer if people would take a cab home or had a designated driver after drinking?

Having not read the article, I can understand some of the opposition to residential bars. I don't need my children to walk or play near a business that invites that kind of activity. And the possibility of contributing to blight in the neighborhood looms for me as well. Besides which, in the North and West of the US especially, people would drive half a block rather than walk that distance in the winter. Having a neighborhood bar would do little to reduce drunk driving numbers, but it may shorten the distance driven.

[Dravin]

Better for them to be wandering than driving.

Certainly, a strict reading of MADD's mission statement puts such concerns (drunks puking on the lawn or being loud) outside of their purview. Thing is I imagine the kind of folks who get tied up in MADD are inclined to have dim views on drunkenness outside of strictly safety or under-aged drinking concerns.

The mission of Mothers Against Drunk Driving is to stop drunk driving, support the victims of this violent crime and prevent underage drinking.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Dravin

[Elphaba]

I don't know if this is true in this specific instance, but the reason for easing restrictions and allowing bars closer to neighborhoods is walkable communities. For people to be able to walk to them, all services are going to have to be closer to residential areas, including businesses that sell alcohol, whether it be a bar or a restaurant that serves alcohol.

Elphaba

[MarginOfError]

The reasoning that putting up more bars will entice more youth to drink is just laughable anyway. Minors don't get alcohol from bars. They get alcohol from parents and friends. So, by their line of reasoning, if I want to curb underage drinking, then i should disallow teens from having friends and parents?

[talisyn]

The Dangers Of Drunk Walking :

Drunk driving and drunk walking...these people just can't get a break!

With New Year’s celebration upon us, everyone is focused on preventing drunk driving. But few consider another dangerous pursuit – drunk walking. In the seventeen years between 1986 and 2002, the single deadliest day for pedestrians was January 1st. 410 pedestrians died and nearly 60% had elevated blood alcohol levels.

[dorave]

The reasoning that putting up more bars will entice more youth to drink is just laughable anyway. Minors don't get alcohol from bars. They get alcohol from parents and friends. So, by their line of reasoning, if I want to curb underage drinking, then i should disallow teens from having friends and parents?

No, what it does is create a drinking culture.

[Guest Godless]

One could easily make the argument that we already have a drinking culture. And if we don't, then Europe certainly does, and has for centuries without causing too much grief. The alcohol taboo is uniquely American and at times drastically overplayed. Yes, we should be encouraging responsibility and discouraging drunk driving, but to do so by suppressing alcohol availability is a foolish approach that borders on irrational paranoia.

[jadams_4040]

Salt Lake City, Utah (CNN) -- For Art and Jaynie Brown, the anti-alcohol crusade began with a late-night phone call a decade ago.

"From my daughter," Art Brown explained at his Salt Lake City home. "And she simply said, 'Dad, we've been in a very serious accident.' "

The Browns rushed to the hospital where their grandchildren were taken after the crash. One of the boys was seriously injured; the other was in more dire condition.

Mormon church influences alcohol debate in Salt Lake City - CNN.com

I dont see "the church" infuencing liquor licenses; but the "lifestyle" and "mindset" that comes from living the gospel does.:)

[dorave]

One could easily make the argument that we already have a drinking culture.

If so, then why the need for more availbilty? the bar owner in the article didn't seem to think Utah had a drinking culture at all due to tight regulations.

And if we don't, then Europe certainly does, and has for centuries without causing too much grief.

Not true, I live in New Zealand, and here, we have modelled many of our societal social habits off Brittian, (NZ is like a mini Europe) one being its 'drinking culture' and right now teens drinking alcohol is a part of that culture, eventhough its illegal. The industralization of alcohol to extensive consumer availability of it has sprouted many many problems, from drunk driving to under age drinking to binge drinking - you name it, we have it and we are now looking to regulate it back to some form of civillity, as was with the case with smoking.

Resources | NZ Statistic

The alcohol taboo is uniquely American and at times drastically overplayed. Yes, we should be encouraging responsibility and discouraging drunk driving, but to do so by suppressing alcohol availability is a foolish approach that borders on irrational paranoia.

Regarding alcohol taboo, so it should be.

The problem with alcohol is that it is both a narcotic and an addictive substance , so don't believe the hype about responsible alcohol use, we here in New Zealand are hearing everyday how someone gets behind the wheel over the drinking limit and kills someone or drunk teens, or even just recently how a 4 year old girl gets sexually abused by a national celebrity who says he was drunk.

You cannot control something that has the properties to control you.

Edited January 3, 2010 by dorave

[Elphaba]

(NZ is like a mini Europe)

But it is not Europe, and Godless' comments stand because when he wrote Europe, he actually meant Europe, not the dozens of mini-Europes out there.

Elphaba

[dorave]

But it is not Europe, and Godless' comments stand because when he wrote Europe, he actually meant Europe, not the dozens of mini-Europes out there.

Elphaba

Yet, it was a comment made by an American resident and not someone living anywhere near Europe.

And no, we are not just mini Euro, as we were colonised by Brittian, are a part of the commonwealth and still acknowledge the crown.

By blanketing Europe culturally as one whole entitiy in itself is ignorance and shows how little you know of anything outside the US, it's like labelling Brazillians and Purto Ricans as Americans. And then to dismiss other wannabe mini Euros is just dumb, as Europe is made up of many individual nations, of which many of those nations governed and conqured other nations all around the globe.

Edited January 3, 2010 by dorave

[Guest Godless]

Yet, it was a comment made by an American resident and not someone living anywhere near Europe.

And no, we are not just mini Euro, as we were colonised by Brittian, are a part of the commonwealth and still acknowledge the crown.

By blanketing Europe culturally as one whole entitiy in itself is ignorance and shows how little you know of anything outside the US, it's like labelling Brazillians and Purto Ricans as Americans. And then to dismiss other wannabe mini Euros is just dumb, as Europe is made up of many individual nations, of which many of those nations governed and conqured other nations all around the globe.

Europeans have been drinking alcohol for centuries. There was even a time when beer was favored over water because it was believed to be safer to drink. Many of the oldest breweries in Europe started as monasteries, where monks brewed beer to provide them sustenance during their long fasts. I don't know much about the history of wine, but I'd imagine that it probably holds an equally colorful history in Western culture.

As for "mini-Europes", I don't recognize colonies. As far as I'm concerned, they're the remnants of a mostly-dead age of imperialism. I recognize the fact that many countries continue to suffer from Western influence, and that's unfortunate. I understand and sympathize with your concerns as a citizen of one of those nations, but it's naive to assume the cultures of Western nations are even remotely identical to those of the nations they once controlled.

[hordak]

I

The problem with alcohol is that it is both a narcotic and an addictive substance , so don't believe the hype about responsible alcohol use, we here in New Zealand are hearing everyday how someone gets behind the wheel over the drinking limit and kills someone or drunk teens, or even just recently how a 4 year old girl gets sexually abused by a national celebrity who says he was drunk.

You cannot control something that has the properties to control you.

Considering only 19% of the adult population and 50 % of the kids are non drinkers (from your link). Then the number or responsible alcohol users is huge.

It's like anything else were negatives are reported. For every celeb who abuse a child under the influence (total cop out don't buy it) 100 drank and didn't. For every moron who gets behind the wheel drunk there is 100 who call a cab.

"Drunk man calls cab"

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/image/bc09c972a2e08144

"Horrible crash caused by drunk driver"

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/image/28426b5f922c51a0.

Which one do you think sells more papers?

[dorave]

Europeans have been drinking alcohol for centuries.

Err so have we, its the reason for our 'drinking culture' a society that drinks culturally is a society that has a drinking culture, period. geographic location and history has nothing to do with much regarding the article as its the deregulation and industralization of alcohol and its ultimate effect on society that is the issue here.

So moot point.

Edited January 3, 2010 by dorave

[dorave]

Considering only 19% of the adult population and 50 % of the kids are non drinkers (from your link). Then the number or responsible alcohol users is huge.

It's like anything else were negatives are reported. For every celeb who abuse a child under the influence (total cop out don't buy it) 100 drank and didn't. For every moron who gets behind the wheel drunk there is 100 who call a cab.

"Drunk man calls cab"

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/image/bc09c972a2e08144

"Horrible crash caused by drunk driver"

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/image/28426b5f922c51a0.

Which one do you think sells more papers?

What you should be saying is 81% of adults drink, and 50% of kids drink, 50% of kids drink!!... and if you don't find those figures staggering then thats just sad.

[Guest Godless]

Err so have we, its the reason for our 'drinking culture' a society that drinks culturally is a society that has a drinking culture, period. geographic location and history has nothing to do with much regarding the article as its the deregulation and industralization of alcohol and its ultimate effect on society that is the issue here.

So moot point.

The point I was trying to make is that, historically, alcohol has never been strongly regulated in Europe, and it was a private enterprise long before it was a commercial one. Part of the history, part of the culture.

The cultural effects of alcohol have been vastly different in regions that were colonized by the Europeans, including the US. This is why we have taboos and regulations surrounding the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages. Some of our laws are well-founded, but many of them aren't. Prohibiting sale of alcohol before noon on Sundays (Texas law) isn't going to encourage responsibility, nor will restricting the distance between bars and residential areas.

And no, there's nothing staggering about a culture in which over 80% of the population drinks when it's an over-publicized minority that's causing problems. Hordak's point is perfectly valid.

[hordak]

Europeans have been drinking alcohol for centuries. There was even a time when beer was favored over water because it was believed to be safer to drink. Many of the oldest breweries in Europe started as monasteries, where monks brewed beer to provide them sustenance during their long fasts. I don't know much about the history of wine, but I'd imagine that it probably holds an equally colorful history in Western culture.

As for "mini-Europes", I don't recognize colonies. As far as I'm concerned, they're the remnants of a mostly-dead age of imperialism. I recognize the fact that many countries continue to suffer from Western influence, and that's unfortunate. I understand and sympathize with your concerns as a citizen of one of those nations, but it's naive to assume the cultures of Western nations are even remotely identical to those of the nations they once controlled.

Actually i think you might be doing a "disservice" by lumping Europe into one group. I don't know about drunk driving stats but i took a Psychology class last year that covered addiction (alcoholism) and how culture can drive it.

They found that cultures that teach children to drink responsibly and condemn drunkenness in adults (drinking ok but this isn't a frat house) like in France, Italy and Greece alcoholism was less prevalent then in places where children are forbidden to drink but adult drunkenness is condoned (Animal house) like Ireland. All European countries.

One might suppose the Irish are more prone to alcoholism genetically (as some stereotypes suggest) but studies have also shown that addiction rates change based on cultural moves. In Mexico and Porto Rico drinking is considered a male activity and Latino women (in their home countries) have less problems then their American Latino sisters.

According to the text 2 to 3 times the amount of alcohol was consumed by Americans during the colonial days and alcoholism didn't become a big problem until the late 1700 early 1800s as drinking became a symbol of masculinity, and independence due to the move out west and the saloon becoming the place to drink. This doesn't bode well for the idea they need more bars however the prohibition showed that while the number or drinker lessened slightly the rates of addition rose due to the missed opportunity to learn how to drink moderately and over did it when they had the chance.

Looking at the data it seems access has less to do with addiction then how it is presented by culture. That the alcohol taboo is not uniquely American but is "at times drastically overplayed" and the cause of the problem (when referring to addiction). And "Yes, we should be encouraging responsibility and discouraging drunk driving, but to do so by suppressing alcohol availability is a foolish approach that borders on irrational paranoia."

So building more bars won't cause more problems, but we need to stop machoizing (new word i just made up) drinking.

Keeping the "bros" out is the solution. (do they even exist in Utah?)

I should note that the studies and the text exclude cultures where people don't drink for religious reasons. I don't know it this is because then numbers would be too hard to get. Tough to get the Saudis to open up about alcohol use since it is against the law. Or because it works, I suspect less LDS drink then the population at large.

[dorave]

The point I was trying to make is that, historically, alcohol has never been strongly regulated in Europe, and it was a private enterprise long before it was a commercial one. Part of the history, part of the culture.

The cultural effects of alcohol have been vastly different in regions that were colonized by the Europeans, including the US. This is why we have taboos and regulations surrounding the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages. Some of our laws are well-founded, but many of them aren't. Prohibiting sale of alcohol before noon on Sundays (Texas law) isn't going to encourage responsibility, nor will restricting the distance between bars and residential areas.

And no, there's nothing staggering about a culture in which over 80% of the population drinks when it's an over-publicized minority that's causing problems. Hordak's point is perfectly valid.

I'm sorry but ethnicity and minority ethnicity has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with drunk driving.

And you keep referring to Europe as if it hadn't gone through the dark ages for hundreds of years.

[Guest Godless]

I'm sorry but ethnicity and minority ethnicity has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with drunk driving.

I never made that correlation. I merely pointed out that colonized nations shouldn't be considered mirror images of their imperialist conquerors. The British may have heavily influenced Maori culture, but I highly doubt that your culture is the spitting image of British society. For this reason, the problems that are caused by alcohol in New Zealand are probably far less serious in the UK, or at least different in nature.

Hordak raised some good points with his analysis of American drinking habits. Alcohol abuse wasn't a problem in the US until after we had created our own national identity to replace the British model. And as a result, we now have a culture that thinks alcohol is evil because we've painted it that way. Having a beer with lunch is considered a sign of alcoholism. I recently had an Army health consultant tell me that I have a drinking problem because I drink daily. The fact that I rarely get drunk didn't even seem to matter to her. The irony is that this practice and the reaction to it both seem to be fairly common in the US. We're condemning the majority of Americans that actually drink responsibly simply because they do so too often. And the link you posted suggests this may be the case to some extent in your culture as well. Again, there is nothing alarming about the fact that 80% of a population drinks. If the entire 80% were excessive drinkers, then there would be cause for alarm, but I didn't see any indication of that.

And you keep referring to Europe as if it hadn't gone through the dark ages for hundreds of years.

How is that relevant? Edited January 4, 2010 by Godless
wrong country