Mormon Church Influences Alcohol Debate

[Moksha]

I understand that in some locales, the local pub becomes a gathering place for more than just public intoxication. It would be nice if this identification could occur so these places could be frequented by those not looking to get snockered. Such places closer to home would make cab rides so much more affordable for those wise enough not to drive.

[LDSpunkrocker]

The reasoning that putting up more bars will entice more youth to drink is just laughable anyway. Minors don't get alcohol from bars. They get alcohol from parents and friends. So, by their line of reasoning, if I want to curb underage drinking, then i should disallow teens from having friends and parents?

me and my friends drank in bars at the age of 19 in california, the bars out here in az are full of underage drinkers, the bars just dont care unless they get caught

[Guest]

I never made that correlation. I merely pointed out that colonized nations shouldn't be considered mirror images of their imperialist conquerors. The British may have heavily influenced Filipino culture, but I highly doubt that your culture is the spitting image of British society. For this reason, the problems that are caused by alcohol in the Philippines are probably far less serious in the UK, or at least different in nature.

The Philippines was never a British colony. I believe you meant New Zealand - where Dorave said he's from.

In the Philippines, the legal drinking age is 18. But - you'll never know unless you look it up. Because most everybody do not pay attention to that. It is not unusual to find some little kid buying a case of beer for his parents at the neighborhood store. It is not unusual even for the parents to share the beer with the kid.

But, the way it is with Filipinos is - you live and learn. One drunken stupor puking your guts out and you'll learn soon enough when to stop - or where to drink.

The culture condones drinking but it shuns drunkenness. A person who cannot hold his beer becomes a laughing stock.

Of course, the same with drugs or speeding or even just normal everyday living - you hurt somebody, you are in trouble - the police is the least of your worries. Especially outside of the main cities. Filipino family wars can be very brutal - and usually, you hurt somebody, his family will go after your family.

By the way, the presence of bars or even just the availability of money does not have any effect on alcohol drinking in the Philippines. Filipino farmers can make their own alcoholic beverage using coconut or rice - for very cheap.

[Guest Godless]

Thanks for correcting a rather embarrassing mistake on my part, anatess. And thanks for sharing some insight on your own culture as well.

[dorave]

I never made that correlation. I merely pointed out that colonized nations shouldn't be considered mirror images of their imperialist conquerors. The British may have heavily influenced Maori culture, but I highly doubt that your culture is the spitting image of British society. For this reason, the problems that are caused by alcohol in New Zealand are probably far less serious in the UK, or at least different in nature.

Hordak raised some good points with his analysis of American drinking habits. Alcohol abuse wasn't a problem in the US until after we had created our own national identity to replace the British model. And as a result, we now have a culture that thinks alcohol is evil because we've painted it that way. Having a beer with lunch is considered a sign of alcoholism. I recently had an Army health consultant tell me that I have a drinking problem because I drink daily. The fact that I rarely get drunk didn't even seem to matter to her. The irony is that this practice and the reaction to it both seem to be fairly common in the US. We're condemning the majority of Americans that actually drink responsibly simply because they do so too often. And the link you posted suggests this may be the case to some extent in your culture as well. Again, there is nothing alarming about the fact that 80% of a population drinks. If the entire 80% were excessive drinkers, then there would be cause for alarm, but I didn't see any indication of that.

How is that relevant?

Who said anything about maori people or culture? Yuur comments demonstrate how little you know about NZ culture. Maori cultture is merely an accepted token of it's former self, and has nothing to do with what I commenting on in regards to the evident effects of alcohol on society in general as a whole, I'm not referring to it's effects on a certain race or demographic, other than the general society itself.

[deals_dog]

I think with the amount of suffering that Alcohol brings into our communities that it is due time that we stood up and registered our concerns. I have seen too much under age street drinking and the problems that that behavior has had. The festive session violence that seems to be largely attributed to drinking.The same with domestic violence. At present we have alco-pop drink being served to young adults, in my country they lowered the drinking age to 18 and that in itself has been problematic. Don't wait for the church to make statements, church members need to act

[Guest]

I think with the amount of suffering that Alcohol brings into our communities that it is due time that we stood up and registered our concerns. I have seen too much under age street drinking and the problems that that behavior has had. The festive session violence that seems to be largely attributed to drinking.The same with domestic violence. At present we have alco-pop drink being served to young adults, in my country they lowered the drinking age to 18 and that in itself has been problematic. Don't wait for the church to make statements, church members need to act

You can replace drinking in the above statement with sex and it would be true as well. You don't see anybody trying to ban sex.

I don't think banning alcohol/sex/etc. is the solution to the problem. EDUCATION is the key.

[dorave]

You can replace drinking in the above statement with sex and it would be true as well. You don't see anybody trying to ban sex.

I don't think banning alcohol/sex/etc. is the solution to the problem. EDUCATION is the key.

No, alcohol is a narcotic drug and is a mind altering substance. Big difference.

[hordak]

No, alcohol is a narcotic drug and is a mind altering substance. Big difference.

Technically it is a depressant. A narcotic is an opioid according to medical processionals and an opioid or cocaine legally speaking. Here in the US.

[dorave]

Technically it is a depressant. A narcotic is an opioid according to medical processionals and an opioid or cocaine legally speaking. Here in the US.

Regardless, alcohol is a psychoactive drug, which is the main issue for me.

Edited January 6, 2010 by dorave

[Elphaba]

And no, we are not just mini Euro, as we were colonised by Brittian, are a part of the commonwealth and still acknowledge the crown.

Britain is only one country among many in Europe. So why do you assume NZ is a mini-Europe? Using your parameters, NZ is a mini-Britain, nothing more.

By blanketing Europe culturally as one whole entitiy

Which, of course, I never did.

in itself is ignorance and shows how little you know of anything outside the US, it's like labelling Brazillians and Purto Ricans as Americans.

No, it's not the same at all, because both Brazilians and Puerto Ricans are Americans.

Brazilians are Americans in exactly the same way Brits are Europeans: Continent. Brazilians are Americans because they live on the American continent. Brits are Europeans because they exist on the European continent.

Additionally, Puerto Rico considers itself American, although it is a province. Regardless, the people are proud of and maintain their cultural heritage. But technically, because they also exist on the American continent, they are Americans. And because it is an American province, they are Americans as well.

I could say this shows your ignorance about America, but I won't. It would be rude.

And then to dismiss other wannabe mini Euros is just dumb, as Europe is made up of many individual nations, of which many of those nations governed and conqured other nations all around the globe.

Of course I never any such thing in that I did not dismiss any country. I dismissed your assertion that NZ is a mini-Euro. It matters now how much you want NZ to be a part of Europe, it's not, and it never will be.

Additionally, you're the one who used the word "wannabe," not me, and it tells it all. The "wannabe" Europeans are not Europeans. If they were Europeans, they would not be wannabes.

Elphaba

[deals_dog]

Well Anatess you can get rid of the Alcohol and yes that would solve a few problems. So would banning sex I suppose, no people after a while then no problem. Yes you could try and educate but that has not proven very effective over time has it. When did education programs directed at youth regarding binge drinking suddenly become effective. I am afraid alcohol and humans do not mix, hence the reason why the lord banned it in the word of wisdom eh? Have you tried to educate an alcoholic or reason with a drunk. Or have you been at a raging youth party and told them to drink in moderation. Good luck on that one buddy. I am glad the church is making a stand and so should we as members of the church make a stand in the communities in which we live.

[Guest]

Well Anatess you can get rid of the Alcohol and yes that would solve a few problems. So would banning sex I suppose, no people after a while then no problem. Yes you could try and educate but that has not proven very effective over time has it. When did education programs directed at youth regarding binge drinking suddenly become effective. I am afraid alcohol and humans do not mix, hence the reason why the lord banned it in the word of wisdom eh? Have you tried to educate an alcoholic or reason with a drunk. Or have you been at a raging youth party and told them to drink in moderation. Good luck on that one buddy. I am glad the church is making a stand and so should we as members of the church make a stand in the communities in which we live.

Yes, I actually have. My father is a chemist at a beer company. I had my first taste of beer when I was... 5? 6? Somewhere there. None in my family drink - except a glass or two at a party, and not even every time. No, we're not LDS. We're Catholics. Or, I was - I converted LDS 8 years ago.

My family are athletes. It is part of the athletic program to educate about the perils of alcohol. Part of the reason that even when our fridge is always stocked with beer, none of us drink is because of this education. The biggest part is, of course, when you got a beer and juice side-by-side in the fridge, the juice is better tasting. I have not had alcohol since that first taste when I was 5 or 6. It does not taste good!

People who are educated on the perils of drinking to excess, living in a society who shuns drunkeness, who still CHOOSE to drink to excess are the same people who will buy alcohol on the blackmarket during a prohibition.

I tell you, it does not solve anything.

And I will tell you - without source, but you can look it up if you want - majority of alcohol drinkers are not drunkards!

By the way, only the LDS church commands their members to abstain from alcohol out of all the Christian churches that I know about.

The LDS church also commands their members to abstain from tea. You want to ban tea next?

[dorave]

Britain is only one country among many in Europe. So why do you assume NZ is a mini-Europe? Using your parameters, NZ is a mini-Britain, nothing more.

Which, of course, I never did.

No, it's not the same at all, because both Brazilians and Puerto Ricans are Americans.

Brazilians are Americans in exactly the same way Brits are Europeans: Continent. Brazilians are Americans because they live on the American continent. Brits are Europeans because they exist on the European continent.

Additionally, Puerto Rico considers itself American, although it is a province. Regardless, the people are proud of and maintain their cultural heritage. But technically, because they also exist on the American continent, they are Americans. And because it is an American province, they are Americans as well.

I could say this shows your ignorance about America, but I won't. It would be rude.

Of course I never any such thing in that I did not dismiss any country. I dismissed your assertion that NZ is a mini-Euro. It matters now how much you want NZ to be a part of Europe, it's not, and it never will be.

Additionally, you're the one who used the word "wannabe," not me, and it tells it all. The "wannabe" Europeans are not Europeans. If they were Europeans, they would not be wannabes.

Elphaba

This is the last I'll say on this Mini Euro nonsense.

I have never met a Puerto Rican or Brazillian resident call themself 'American' when referring to continent, it's always been 'South American' - yes, technically they are 'American' but culturally South American Americans do not see themselves as the same as their Northern Neighbours.

And, I wasn't trying to paint NZ out as a part of Europe other than to point out that NZ share alot of cultural aspects derived from Europe and Great Brittian. Yet you dismissed my assertion of NZ being cuturally simular because you wanted to dismiss my realtime stat and fact sheet of alcohol's effects on our country, maintaining the mindset that 'hey, if it's fine in Europe - it should be fine here too' but I'm sorry if you aren't located in Europe then I'm sorry you don't count.

I couldn't speak for Europe or anyone of from one those nations but I could only speak for my own country.

But lets see what Google says in support of Europe's utopian ways toward its historic and prestigious drinking culture.

Italy

Pressures mount as binge-drinking hits Italy | Reuters

Looks like Italy is becoming no longer the benchmark for responsible drinking eh?

France

France fears binge drinking bug has arrived - Telegraph

Germany

Association of Average Daily Alcohol Consumption, Binge Drinking and Alcohol-Related Social Problems: Results from the German Epidemiological Surveys of Substance Abuse -- Kraus et al. 44 (3): 314 -- Alcohol and Alcoholism

Binge Drinking In Childhood And Adolescence, Germany

Brittian

Do we even need to go there?

Scandinavia

Cheap Alcohol Causes Problems in Scandinavia

Finland

Finland ups its alcohol tax to curb binge drinking | IceNews - Daily News

But then again, its just media trying to sell papers right?

Edited January 6, 2010 by dorave

[dorave]

By the way, only the LDS church commands their members to abstain from alcohol out of all the Christian churches that I know about.

The LDS church also commands their members to abstain from tea. You want to ban tea next?

Because the LDS church is the truth. ...or it is false.

And regards to banning drinking Tea, does it alter the consumer's mindset and conscious?

Edited January 6, 2010 by dorave

[dorave]

My father is a chemist at a beer company. I had my first taste of beer when I was... 5? 6? Somewhere there.

And you don't see the connection there?

...drinking culture.

[deals_dog]

Well Anatess now you are getting ridiculous and I thought you were educated. The church at one stage did try to have Utah as an alcohol free state but if memory serves public apathy caused that plan to fail. Regarding education, yes it is wonderful and we agree, the problem is that to educate you have to have a willingness on students part to actually want to listen, be taught and then buy into the proposals put forward. Education is a big process and the desired results will be seen over time.

What I am looking at is what can be done in our communities now. Making it difficult for Youth to get hold of Alcohol would be a start. Stopping the manufacture of ready to drink soda pop alcohol drinks would be another, or taxing the product out of the youth market. In my country New Zealand we have a real problem with booze and some sort of action needs to be taken. Just out of interest Anatess we have started to move by having alcohol bans in public areas such as beaches etc and have noted a considerable drop in crime particularly on New Years day. One place we had riots regularly, they band the consumption of Alcohol in these areas and hardly a problem.

And perhaps the majority of people are not drunkards as you suggest, so why is the church trying to influence the alcohol debate?

Your last argument about banning tea, honestly. Tea may cause health problems, but domestic violence. Don't drink tea and drive, no problem there eh?

Edited January 6, 2010 by Dravin
Insulting another member

[Guest Godless]

And perhaps the majority of people are not drunkards as you suggest, so why is the church trying to influence the alcohol debate?

Because the LDS church forbids alcohol altogether. Islam does as well, which is why Saudis and Kuwaitis drive to Bahrain to get drunk. I take no issue with the Church's standards, but as a non-member who drinks quite regularly and hopes to one day have a career in the craft beer community, I would not want the LDS Church influencing secular law.

Interestingly enough, I've recently entered a debate on another website about the reasons why Texas has such a small selection of local craft beers. The primary reason is that state legislation makes it very difficult for small craft brewers to be successful. These are brewers who cater to some of the more responsible demographics in the drinking community, and they're being kept down while frat boys can get as much Bud Light and Jäger as their livers can handle. Long story short, regulations hurt small businesses while allowing larger and wealthier ones to prosper and influence the market.

[Elphaba]

I have never met a Puerto Rican or Brazillian resident call themself 'American' when referring to continent, it's always been 'South American' - yes, technically they are 'American' but culturally South American Americans do not see themselves as the same as their Northern Neighbours.

Agreed.

Yet you dismissed my assertion of NZ being cuturally simular because you wanted to dismiss my realtime stat and fact sheet of alcohol's effects on our country, maintaining the mindset that 'hey, if it's fine in Europe

Please show me where I wanted to do any such thing. I did not address it whatsoever.

I only pointed out that Godless was talking about Europe, and that NZ is not Europe. I made my point, so I'll leave you to it.

Elphaba

Edited January 6, 2010 by Elphaba

[hordak]

[Redacted]

I'm no mod here but it is completely uncalled for.

Site rules.

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Dravin
Cleaning up the quoted insult

[Dravin]

Hordak, we have a report feature, it is much more efficient to use that. I do appreciate the heads up though, my eyes just glaze over when seeing a block of text like that, I'd have never caught it myself.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Dravin

[deals_dog]

My apologies to Anatess, I was out of line. Unfortunately I was having trouble understanding the logic of your argument and got a bit emotional and frustrated. Got to give me a few points for being energetic in my approach eh? I did however agree with a lot that you were saying, until you lost me about banning tea, could not see the relationship between tea and our topic, got me lost totally.

Well Godless you have a bias in this insomuch as you want to make beer, we have too much of the stuff available now for people to drink, your choice, if you want to make a business as a beer maker go for it. Mind you I have noted the good Muslems as well as mormons would be less than supportive. So Godless what is your interest in floating around a church web site? Would not a Beer making site be more for your tastes?

[pam]

Godless comes to this website because we just love him. And he loves the harassment I give him about football.

[Moksha]

Would not a Beer making site be more for your tastes?

Do you have any links to the Diet Coke site?

[Guest Godless]

Well Godless you have a bias in this insomuch as you want to make beer, we have too much of the stuff available now for people to drink, your choice, if you want to make a business as a beer maker go for it.

Well, as I said, there's already a large market for the cheap stuff that serves no other purpose than to get people drunk, but that's not what I'm aiming for. There's a growing market for artisan beers, and that's what I'm setting my sights on. And like I said, there's generally a higher level of responsibility practiced by both the producers and the consumers of craft beer. Learning about the history of the various styles of beer on the market has been a fascinating journey for me, and one that I plan to continue for a long time into the future.

So Godless what is your interest in floating around a church web site? Would not a Beer making site be more for your tastes?

I'm very active on a site where people discuss and review craft beer. I post here because I enjoy theological discussion. And I also enjoy bashing heads with pam over football topics.