Evangelicalism Vs. Mormonism?

[prisonchaplain]

Can’t we all just get along? –Rodney King

Evangelicals complain that Mormons do not believe non-LDS are saved, or qualified for heaven. Mormons complain that evangelicals do not consider them to be Christians, or born again. Hundreds of posts go back and forth with “proof” about how wrong we are about each other. Then, some peacemakers will try to restore calm, but in so doing, sometimes try to sweep under the rug some significant theological issues. So, I figured I might as well muddy the waters even more.

Are Mormons Christians? Some branches of the broad faith may answer with a qualified yes. For example, the Catholic Church might lump the LDS with other “separated brethren.” Some mainstream groups might take at face value the LDS affirmation of the Holy Trinity, and include the church in a broad definition of the faith. However, most Mormons and Christians realize that there are some serious distinctive doctrines within LDS theology that lead to it standing alone. If nothing else, the doctrine of a restored gospel and church place Mormons in a place of their own.

Are non-LDS Christians saved? My gleanings here, and from other readings–include lds.org, bring me to conclude that, according to Mormon teaching, I am as saved as any Mormon who does not live up to the highest standards of their faith. In other words, a great Christian is as okay as an okay Mormon. In fact, an okay Christian may be as good as an okay Mormon. It’s only the great LDS adherents that achieve the ultimate glory –perhaps like Catholic saints?

I enjoy reading and writing at this site. There is a liberty, a familiarity, and yet a challenge to this place. Yet, by way of full disclosure, my success in communicating here is in part due to my use of theological “cross-cultural” communication skills. I’m a guest here. I speak when spoken to, and offer comments with a certain amount of care, and a great desire to learn from others, rather from my own foolish mistakes.

All this to say, there are significant differences in theology, daily “holiness” standards, and approaches to faith between the Church of LDS and Christianity, as practiced in my own Pentecostal tradition. Rather than wax indignant and fiery (which, admittedly, can be good fun) about perceived misquotes, misunderstandings, gaffes in logic, etc., I much prefer to listen, and occasionally be heard, to ask questions, really hear the answers, and maybe, once in a while, to add a bit of insight.

[BenRaines]

I think that our definition of what we call saved and what many born again Christians consider saved are different.

We believe that all are saved from that as in Adam all men died a spiritual and was subject to mortal death so in Christ all shall be made alive. We believe that with the resurrection of Jesus Christ all that have been born of mortal existence will be resurrected.

We also believe that the saved that is important and that it takes some effort on our part is the ability to be able to dwell in the presence of God is the one that requires baptism, Holy Ghost by laying on of hands, endowment in the temple. Those are the requirements to end the Celestial Kingdom. As I understand it.

[Snow]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 20 2005, 03:47 PM

Can’t we all just get along?   –Rodney King

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I'm not sure what you want answered. Your question is about getting along with each other but your post is about theological differences.

The answer to your question though is yes Mormons can get along but no, a goodly number in the Evangelical community cannot.

Explanation:

Setting aside the firely rhetoric on both sides from years gone by... today, you never ever see an LDS ministry, website or book denigrating Evangelicals, promulgating lies or misstatements about them, ridiculing them, or seeking to do their organization harm.

The opposite is decidedly not true.

Note: Yes the LDS Church proclaims itself the one totally true gig going but does so through self-promotion, never through the denigration of other denominations.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Yes we can get along... as long as we don't talk about any specifics when it comes to doctrines etc.

We can come together for the betterment of our society... good coming together to fight true evil...

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 20 2005, 04:59 PM

I think that our definition of what we call saved and what many born again Christians consider saved are different.

We believe that all are saved from that as in Adam all men died a spiritual and was subject to mortal death so in Christ all shall be made alive.  We believe that with the resurrection of Jesus Christ all that have been born of mortal existence will be resurrected.

This is an a key distinction. As I understand it, Mormon soteriology (salvation) offers a level of paradise for most of God's creation, whereas the evangelical interpretatation is that eternal blessing will only come to those who embrace "the gift of life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord." In other words, those who do not receive the gift of Jesus will be not receive any eternal blessing (not even base form of heaven). As the old-time backwoods preachers used to proclaim, "It's heaven or hell, brother!"

Perhaps this distinction explains why some evangelicals come across as strident or "hard sell." It also clarifies why LDS adherents can be naturally quickly to defend their beliefs, but why there is less of a sense of urgency about winning converts. I point this out, not as criticism, but as explanation. Most people are well aware that when either JW's or evangelicals go door to door, they are more aggressive than Mormon missionaries. This is why. Witnesses believe those who do not embrace their truth will be annihilated at Armeggedon. Evangelicals believe those who do not intentionally embrace the Good News of Jesus will face eternal punishment.

We also believe that the saved that is important and that it takes some effort on our part is the ability to be able to dwell in the presence of God is the one that requires baptism, Holy Ghost by laying on of hands, endowment in the temple.  Those are the requirements to end the Celestial Kingdom.  As I understand it.

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I believe another LDS poster called this highest bless EXALTATION. Perhaps this is similar to Jesus various parables about the various levels of "fruit" produced by followers. The sower who seeds produced in some 30-fold, others 60-fold, ands still others, 100-fold. The servants given 1, 2, and 5-talents, with the 5-talent servant being given the greatest reward for doing so well with his responsiblities.

While evangelicals believe that all Christians will be in the same heaven, there are some subtle teachings about special blessings for martyrs, about storing up treasures in heaven, and about being able to produce the purest gifts to present to Jesus.

Here again, we see why the LDS Church has the highest level of giving amongst its adherents, and why its holiness codes (no drinking alcohol or caffeinated beverages, etc.) are well known, even by non-members. The heavenly reward is great for those who serve well.

[Guest LDSister]

Are Mormons Christians?

Yes, we are members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.

Are Mormons saved?

In my opinion, that would depend upon each individual's personal relationship with God.

Can we all get along?

Sometimes the best way to get along is to use the ignore function!

[prisonchaplain]

The answer to your question though is yes Mormons can get along but no, a goodly number in the Evangelical community cannot.

Explanation:

Setting aside the firely rhetoric on both sides from years gone by... today, you never ever see an LDS ministry, website or book denigrating Evangelicals, promulgating lies or misstatements about them, ridiculing them, or seeking to do their organization harm.

The opposite is decidedly not true.

Note: Yes the LDS Church proclaims itself the one totally true gig going but does so through self-promotion, never through the denigration of other denominations.

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The reason LDS adherents do not denigrate other faiths is #1. You are smart enough to know that such tactics do not work, but rather incite defensiveness and a sense of martyrdom. #2. You believe that most of humanity will receive some type of blessed existance after death.

The reason some evangelicals present a very stark, confrontational and aggressive message is that they believe the Mormon gospel is heterodox, and that adherents will not inherit eternal life. Their purpose is to snatch souls from the fires of hell.

You are right to debate their doctrines, and challenge their tactics. However, in most cases, these "mean people" really believe in what they are doing. Some of the information they present may be erroneous and/or inflammatory. Very few of them are mere money-making charlatans who will stop to hate-mongering to enrich their "ministries."

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Member_Deleted@Nov 20 2005, 05:33 PM

Yes we can get along... as long as we don't talk about any specifics when it comes to doctrines etc.

In an ideal world we could explain our different beliefs, perhaps cajole each other a bit, without stooping to name-calling, generalizations, and one-upmanship.

We can come together for the betterment of our society... good coming together to fight true evil...

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Yes, we should be able to cooperate on social justice issues, matters of religious liberty, etc. My current concern is that a political climate is being nurtured, such that the government may some day declare "public proselytizing" to be illegal. Such a law would be justified to avoid domestic terrorism.

[Guest LDSister]

The world in general cannot get along...which is why we are at war. When anyone attempts to control another, there will be war. We war with one another because we do not respect one another, we have no tolerance, and we most certainly do not love one another. If we don't understand a person, we seek to change that person to fit our mold. If we can't change the other person, we resort to attacking and name calling. We fight with one another in the schools, in the legislature, in the churches, and in the home. Wherever you go, someone will usurp their [self-perceived] authority by destroying free agency.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 20 2005, 04:47 PM

Rather than wax indignant and fiery (which, admittedly, can be good fun) about perceived misquotes, misunderstandings, gaffes in logic, etc., I much prefer to listen, and occasionally be heard, to ask questions, really hear the answers, and maybe, once in a while, to add a bit of insight.

You can do all of that, (and you have done so quite well), but what is your goal while talking with others?

Or in other words, what are you trying to accomplish by sharing what you think with others, and listening to others as they share what they think with you?

And btw, if you think we should only be trying to come to a knowledge of the truth, I submit that a knowledge of the truth in itself will not save you, or anyone else, because we will be judged by our works rather than what we know.. although we do need to know what to do to be saved.

And btw, you are correct in saying that there is only “heaven” and “hell”, but there are many “mansions” in “heaven”, and we simply know more about them.

[prisonchaplain]

Or in other words, what are you trying to accomplish by sharing what you think with others, and listening to others as they share what they think with you?

In the end, I suppose most of us are here to bear testimony, or give a witness, to what we know and have experienced, and to learn from others.

And btw, if you think we should only be trying to come to a knowledge of the truth, I submit that a knowledge of the truth in itself will not save you, or anyone else, because we will be judged by our works rather than what we know..  although we do need to know what to do to be saved.

I surmise that most serious participants in this site are aware of the biblical admonition not to be mere HEARERS, but also DOERS of the Word.

And btw, you are correct in saying that there is only “heaven” and “hell”, but there are many “mansions” in “heaven”, and we simply know more about them.

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I do like that.

On the other hand, another distinction between the mansions taught of by LDS theology and those of evangelicalism, is that many of yours house those that have not embraced the Good News of Jesus.

[seamusz]

I cringe every time I hear anyone lump a bunch of people together and think that they can know the personal relationship that person has with Christ in any degree because they adhere to a certain religion or sect.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 21 2005, 06:18 PM

On the other hand, another distinction between the mansions taught of by LDS theology and those of evangelicalism, is that many of yours  house those that have not embraced the Good News of Jesus.

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But all people will embrace the good news of Jesus.

Phillip 2:9-11

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Here it says that every knee shall bow and every tounge confess that Jesus is the Christ... not just on earth, but below the earth and in heaven... that pretty much covers most everybody it would think.

[prisonchaplain]

But all people will embrace the good news of Jesus.

If this were true, there would be no need for an "outer darkness," or any place of punishment at all.

Phillip 2:9-11

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Here it says that every knee shall bow and every tounge confess that Jesus is the Christ... not just on earth, but below the earth and in heaven... that pretty much covers most everybody it would think.

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A careful reading here shows that every knee SHOULD bow...every tongue SHOULD confess. And why? Jesus humbled himself, becoming obedient to death and the cross (v. 8), so God exalted him. He is worthy!

However, for many the recognition will come too late. Indeed, on the Day of Judgment, every knee will indeed bow, and every tongue indeed confess. However, for those not found in the Book of Life, the bowing and confession will be from fear, not rejoicing.

Revelation 20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What makes evangelicals believe that many will not enter into eternal blessing? Jesus indicated such in Matthew 7:13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat.

[Snow]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 21 2005, 07:27 PM

A careful reading here shows that every knee SHOULD bow...every tongue SHOULD confess. 

I just checked a half dozen translations and found should bow, will bow, must bow, shall bow and just plain bows.

If professional translators can't agree on what the author or authors meant, then perhaps we don't know what was acutally intended

[prisonchaplain]

I just checked a half dozen translations and found should bow, will bow, must bow, shall bow and just plain bows.

If professional translators can't agree on what the author or authors meant, then perhaps we don't know what was acutally intended

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This could be a whole other post--reliability of the Bible and its translations. However, I'll make two observations that should keep us on topic:

First, I used the LDS KJV Bible in my post to come as close to an acceptable reading as possible for this site. Secondly, lets consider each of your translated phrases:

Should bow: we've already discussed in previous posts. It makes sense in context. Because God exalts Jesus, he should be worshipped.

Will bow. Again, because God exalts Jesus, both the followers and those judged WILL worship Him.

Must bow. Much like "will bow," but even more forcefully makes the point that there will be no options at this point. God's exaltation of his Son will be recognized by both the damned and the saved. They must bow.

Shall bow. This is simply an alternate expression of will bow.

Bows. The translator chose to put the action in a narrative present tense, instead of explaining what will happen in a straight future tense.

The reality is that we do know what this passage means. Only Unitarian-Universalists (who, by the why, do not accept the Bible as the unique word of God) would attempt to use this passage to argue that everyone will be saved, because everyone will ultimately bow before Jesus.

[seamusz]

Tomato ~ Tomoto... The point is, is that is isn't biblically unfounded to believe that all may recieve a degree of glory. You see, in our faith, even the saved may be damned. So the teachings of many mansions fits with complete harmony with the scriptures.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 21 2005, 05:18 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 21 2005, 12:33 PM

Or in other words, what are you trying to accomplish by sharing what you think with others, and listening to others as they share what they think with you?

In the end, I suppose most of us are here to bear testimony, or give a witness, to what we know and have experienced, and to learn from others.

That’s all good, and it is pretty much why I am here, but it’s not really the answer I was looking for from you. Or maybe it is, if understand you in the correct context. I’ll try to better explain what I want to know about you.

Some people come to this site apparently only wanting to teach us what they know without being willing to change their ideas and even their whole life regarding religion.

Or in other words, some people don’t seem to be looking for the truth, apparently only wanting add to a virtual arsenal of ideas and beliefs which they can and will use “against” us.

Or in other words, some people only want to teach us what they know, without being willing to truly learn from us, which defeats what I think is the whole point of being able to have a truly meaningful discussion.

And btw, while I am also willing to learn from you if you have a point or two to teach me about something, I am not here to be taught, mainly, but to teach you and other people about what I know to be true.

Or in other words, while I am willing to discuss what I know about the gospel with you, I already know that I know the truth concerning certain things pertaining to the gospel and there is no way you or anyone else will ever change my mind.

But that’s not because I’m not willing to change, if I really thought I should, but because I know that I know the truth about those things, and there is no doubt about any of that in my mind. The difficult only comes as I try to share what I know with others.

For instance, no matter what you think or do, and no matter what anyone else thinks or does, I know that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and no amount of discussion about that will ever refute what I know about that.

I also know that Joseph Smith was (and continues to be) a prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon is truly what it claims to be within its sacred pages.

And I also know that President Hinckley is a prophet of God, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church of Christ on the face of this Earth, acting under the authority and inspiration of Jesus Christ to His prophets and apostles who are living today.

And I could go on, and on, declaring to you what I personally know to be true.

So, with that now said, what is your point of being here to discuss the gospel with us?

Or in other words, what is it you really want to know or say to us to get us to want to join with you, or what is it that we need to say to be able to get you to realize and understand what you need to know to be able to want to join with us?

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 21 2005, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 21 2005, 12:33 PM

And btw, if you think we should only be trying to come to a knowledge of the truth, I submit that a knowledge of the truth in itself will not save you, or anyone else, because we will be judged by our works rather than what we know..  although we do need to know what to do to be saved.

I surmise that most serious participants in this site are aware of the biblical admonition not to be mere HEARERS, but also DOERS of the Word.

As I hopefully better explained above, what I really want to know is what You think we should DO to help us all be able to better embrace the gospel.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 21 2005, 05:18 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 21 2005, 12:33 PM

And btw, you are correct in saying that there is only “heaven” and “hell”, but there are many “mansions” in “heaven”, and we simply know more about them.

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I do like that.

On the other hand, another distinction between the mansions taught of by LDS theology and those of evangelicalism, is that many of yours house those that have not embraced the Good News of Jesus.

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No, you don’t have that quite right.

Every knee WILL bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ, including the sons of Perdition, and everyone WILL receive a kingdom of glory in heaven, except for the sons of Perdition.

Or in other words, everyone who accepts the good news of Jesus Christ will be sent to a kingdom of glory in heaven, based upon their level of obedience, or how fully they embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ, while those who utterly reject the good news will be sent to outer darkness, because they utterly refused to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and King.

Or in other words, those who are sent to outer darkness will and do utterly reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and King, knowing full well what He is all about.

Or in other words, even murderers and rapists and the worst of mankind will be sent to heaven, as long as they acknowledge and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and the only thing that is preventing them or any of us from receiving the highest degree of glory is our unwillingness to do what we know our Lord and Savior wants us to do, by living our lives as He has lived (and is continuing to live) His.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 21 2005, 12:04 PM

The reason some evangelicals present a very stark, confrontational and aggressive message is that they believe the Mormon gospel is heterodox, and that adherents will not inherit eternal life.  Their purpose is to snatch souls from the fires of hell. 

You are right to debate their doctrines, and challenge their tactics.  However, in most cases, these "mean people" really believe in what they are doing.  Some of the information they present may be erroneous and/or inflammatory.  Very few of them are mere money-making charlatans who will stop to hate-mongering to enrich their "ministries."

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Most LDS are sensitive to religious organizations that print distortions concerning our doctrine and life style. Our founder and prophet was murdered by religious bigots encouraged by their Christian ministers. On several occasions Mormons were forced from their homes and forced to flee in harsh elements for their lives. 1/5 of our membership (mostly young mothers and infant children) suffered starvation and death by exposure in the first year trying to reach the Salt Lake Valley. Forced to leave in winter by Christians encouraged by their ministers. Just a few years ago an extended court battle was completed over such religious bigots shouting obscenities at newly wed couples on their wedding day at the Salt Lake Temple. In other words the religious bigots claimed to have more rights (freedom of speech) to disrupt sacred LDS events on our own property than we had to assemble in peace without having to listen to those that disagree with our faith. Again Christians and Christian ministers were at the center of this effort to disrupt our faith. These are not Satan worshipers, atheist or the G-dless but Christians – Go figure?

Even on forums such as this it is astonishing how many posters claiming to be Christians trying to save us LDS, do so by distorting our doctrine in the same manner as the bigots that have sought to kill and ask only the questions concerning our faith that these hate groups provide and claim prove us not Christian. Coincidence or inspired by the same spirit?

On the topic of who is saved: We have published the following for over 150 years.

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ that all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are first, faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ, Second, repentance, Third, baptism, by emersion for the remission of sins and forth the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I believe that people should share their beliefs in the same manner they expect G-d to treat them and to be honest I have no desire to learn anything from a person that distorts any faith, be it LDS, JW, or Islam or whatever. If someone is denouncing the LDS faith and has our beliefs wrong I have no faith what-so-ever that they have the spiritual strength to get anything right. If anyone is going to save us because our doctrine is wrong then I expect them to understand our doctrine from our point of view. Jesus warned of false teachers as being wolves that gather grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. Grapes do not grow on thorn bushes so I understand this to mean that if someone is to learn of Islam then they learn it from the Moslems, they learn of Catholics from the Catholics and they learn of LDS from the LDS. Some one teaching any faith that is not their own is not Christ’s but the very wolves he warned about.

[prisonchaplain]

Or in other words, some people only want to teach us what they know, without being willing to truly learn from us, which defeats what I think is the whole point of being able to have a truly meaningful discussion.

And btw, while I am also willing to learn from you if you have a point or two to teach me about something, I am not here to be taught, mainly, but to teach you and other people about what I know to be true.

If I am reading into this correctly, you want me to be wide open to change my religious understandings in light of the truths you have for me. At the same time, you want me to understand that I probably have very little to offer you.

Or in other words, while I am willing to discuss what I know about the gospel with you, I already know that I know the truth concerning certain things pertaining to the gospel and there is no way you or anyone else will ever change my mind. 

But that’s not because I’m not willing to change, if I really thought I should, but because I know that I know the truth about those things, and there is no doubt about any of that in my mind.  The difficult only comes as I try to share what I know with others.

For instance, no matter what you think or do, and no matter what anyone else thinks or does, I know that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and no amount of discussion about that will ever refute what I know about that.

I also know that Joseph Smith was (and continues to be) a prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon is truly what it claims to be within its sacred pages. 

And I also know that President Hinckley is a prophet of God, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church of Christ on the face of this Earth, acting under the authority and inspiration of Jesus Christ to His prophets and apostles who are living today. 

And I could go on, and on, declaring to you what I personally know to be true.

So, once again, you provide a laundry list of things you know--things you are certain of--things that will never change in your mind. Yet, you call upon me to be open to change, to be willing to learn.

So, with that now said, what is your point of being here to discuss the gospel with us?  Or in other words, what is it you really want to know or say to us to get us to want to join with you, or what is it that we need to say to be able to get you to realize and understand what you need to know to be able to want to join with us?

Well...if everyone is of the same mind...expecting me to learn much, change much, and to speak only a little, then perhaps I should not expect much at all. What I have suggested in these posts is that I will speak my mind, hear from yours, and let the Holy Ghost do the changing (whether drastic or "just a bit").

No, you don’t have that quite right. 

Every knee WILL bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ, including the sons of Perdition, and everyone WILL receive a kingdom of glory in heaven, except for the sons of Perdition. 

Or in other words, everyone who accepts the good news of Jesus Christ will be sent to a kingdom of glory in heaven, based upon their level of obedience, or how fully they embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ, while those who utterly reject the good news will be sent to outer darkness, because they utterly refused to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and King.

Or in other words, those who are sent to outer darkness will and do utterly reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and King, knowing full well what He is all about.

Or in other words, even murderers and rapists and the worst of mankind will be sent to heaven, as long as they acknowledge and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and the only thing that is preventing them or any of us from receiving the highest degree of glory is our unwillingness to do what we know our Lord and Savior wants us to do, by living our lives as He has lived (and is continuing to live) His.

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Frankly, I think our key difference of interpretation here is who those sons of perdition are, and how many of them there are. The sons of perdition, from an evangelical understanding, are those whose names are not found written in the book of life. Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ. Those who do not call upon Jesus to forgive their sins. Those who continue in their rebellion against God. And, we believe those in this category will be many, for wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter it.

[prisonchaplain]

Most LDS are sensitive to religious organizations that print distortions concerning our doctrine and life style.  Our founder and prophet was murdered by religious bigots encouraged by their Christian ministers.  On several occasions Mormons were forced from their homes and forced to flee in harsh elements for their lives.  1/5 of our membership (mostly young mothers and infant children) suffered starvation and death by exposure in the first year trying to reach the Salt Lake Valley.  Forced to leave in winter by Christians encouraged by their ministers.  Just a few years ago an extended court battle was completed over such religious bigots shouting obscenities at newly wed couples on their wedding day at the Salt Lake Temple.  In other words the religious bigots claimed to have more rights (freedom of speech) to disrupt sacred LDS events on our own property than we had to assemble in peace without having to listen to those that disagree with our faith.  Again Christians and Christian ministers were at the center of this effort to disrupt our faith.  These are not Satan worshipers, atheist or the G-dless but Christians – Go figure?

Thank you for expressing concisely, and from your heart, the difficult, often injust, and anger-producing experiences that LDS-adherents have experienced at the hands of professing Christians. It would probably due me good to learn more of these. Quite frankly, most evangelical Christians, and probably many mainstream Christians do not know much about these matters. An added bit of honesty, is that many non-LDS Christians probably have little interest in such matters. This is unfortunate, because as we learned from WWII German, "First they came for the Jews, and no one spoke up. Then they came for the Communists, and no one spoke up. ... Finally they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up."

Even on forums such as this it is astonishing how many posters claiming to be Christians trying to save us LDS, do so by distorting our doctrine in the same manner as the bigots that have sought to kill and ask only the questions concerning our faith that these hate groups provide and claim prove us not Christian.  Coincidence or inspired by the same spirit?

While mindful of the difficult history Mormonism has had relating to non-LDS Christians, my sense is that most modern-day evangelicals that attempt to convert you, do so with sincere hearts. They believe you are heterodox, and that your doctrines are so out-of-line with the gospel of Jesus, that your souls face damnation. With that in mind, they try to "win" you for the Lord, to snatch you out of the fires of hell. Such talk may make you angry. It may cause you to laugh with derision. It may even cause you to hate these evangelicals. But you should understand that you are not contending against bigotry, or intentional hate-mongering, but against a very different understanding of what the gospel of Jesus really is.

If someone is denouncing the LDS faith and has our beliefs wrong I have no faith what-so-ever that they have the spiritual strength to get anything right.  If anyone is going to save us because our doctrine is wrong then I expect them to understand our doctrine from our point of view.

Amen to that. Frankly, I have read and viewed presentations from those that are often referred to here as anti-Mormons. In the short few weeks I have visited this site I have come to see some of the blind spots, the exaggerations, and yes, in some cases, the wrong understandings in those sources. In the past I have said I hoped to learn from you some of your teachings and your thoughts. Instead, what I have learned is some of our hearts. How you apply your beliefs to daily conversations and "secular situations."

Jesus warned of false teachers as being wolves that gather grapes of thorns and figs of thistles.  ... Some one teaching any faith that is not their own is not Christ’s but the very wolves he warned about.

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Actually, Jesus was warning church people about false teachers WITHIN the church. Or, those who might come from other places and offer a "fresh word." Within my own tradition (Pentecostalism) we've seen this with the Prosperity Gospel (I claim that Cadillac in the name of Jesus), and the Shepherding movement (where a spiritual mentor is assigned to supervise a less mature believer's every move). Additionally, men like Jim Jones and David Koresh come to mind.

Nevertheless, any historian will tell you that if you want to learn about anything, go to the primary sources. So, for Mormonism, it would be the standard works, the missionaries, and places like lds.org.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 22 2005, 09:53 PM-->

If I am reading into this correctly, you want me to be wide open to change my religious understandings in light of the truths you have for me. At the same time, you want me to understand that I probably have very little to offer you.

No, not quite. I’ll try to rephrase what I meant using most of your own words.

I want you to be wide open to change your religious understandings in light of the truth we have. At the same time, I want you to understand that while you may have some things to teach us, you will not be able to take away from the truth we already have.

Or in other words, we believe we (the Church) already have all of the truth our Lord has given to everyone on Earth, and we also believe our Lord is continuing to guide us through revelation, both personally and through prophets who are appointed to speak in His behalf. Somehow I have the idea that you don’t know that we know that.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 22 2005, 09:53 PM

So, once again, you provide a laundry list of things you know--things you are certain of--things that will never change in your mind. Yet, you call upon me to be open to change, to be willing to learn.

Yes, I am calling upon you to be open to change and be willing to learn the truth, even if that means that you will need to change your whole life regarding religion.

And btw, I have been and continue to be willing to do the same, when I discover new truths that I was not or am not currently aware of. And if you knew about my past religious experiences, you would know that I've already done that, even though that was only the beginning of my progression to a knowledge of all truth.

And btw, while I, personally, still don't know the truth about everything, I do know the truth about some things, and the truth that I know concerning those things will never change, because I know the truth about those things and I know that I know it.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 22 2005, 09:53 PM

Well...if everyone is of the same mind...expecting me to learn much, change much, and to speak only a little, then perhaps I should not expect much at all.

Heh, why would you say that?

I am not expecting you to speak only a little, but I do expect you to learn much and change much because we do indeed have much truth to share with you. And once you accept this fact, it will change your life.

Are you having trouble with the idea that we (the Church) already have the truth?

We declare that we are the only true and living church of Christ upon the face of the whole Earth with whom our Lord is well pleased, speaking collectively and not individually. Or in other words, while there are some other good individuals on Earth who are not members of Christ's church, we believe they are only kept from the knowledge of the truth, (all truth), because they don’t know where to find it.

And now that you have found us, I hope you are now open to finding all of the truth we have available to us, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain@Nov 22 2005, 09:53 PM

What I have suggested in these posts is that I will speak my mind, hear from yours, and let the Holy Ghost do the changing (whether drastic or "just a bit").

That is well, as long as you are open to change should you ever discover some truth you currently do not possess, and not merely trying to get us to change to what you now think the truth is.

Or as President Hinckley once put it, “bring all the truth you have with you and see if we have anything to add to it.”

Or in other words, we are not asking you to throw away any truth that you have. We are simply asking you to be open to the idea that we have more truth than you currently know.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 22 2005, 09:53 PM-->

Frankly, I think our key difference of interpretation here is who those sons of perdition are, and how many of them there are. The sons of perdition, from an evangelical understanding, are those whose names are not found written in the book of life. Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ. Those who do not call upon Jesus to forgive their sins. Those who continue in their rebellion against God. And, we believe those in this category will be many, for wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter it.

Search the scriptures, and even if you limit yourself to those only in the Holy Bible, and the personal assistance you can receive from our Lord through the power of the Holy Ghost, you should be able to discover the idea that there are varying degrees of salvation, as well as those who will be sent to outer darkness because they were and continue to be totally rebellious against our Lord.

At present, I think you don't know all of the truth about this, and since I have already tried to explain it myself, I’ll now refer you to the best sources available.

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain@Nov 22 2005, 09:53 PM

So, for Mormonism, it would be the standard works, the missionaries, and places like lds.org.

Yes, as well as all the inspiration you can receive through prayer with God.

[BenRaines]

prisonchaplin,

Please do not be put off by someone sharing their feelings of their beliefs. You have presented views that I have not even thought of before. Sharing ideas does not mean that we have to attempt to convert each other but to share common and diverse beliefs. As you have stated earlier we find in many cases more things in common than different.

You are right about our view of the rewards for those who accept Christ as Savior and those who do not. I have always had a problem with a pass/fail system. My thought is that in the Evangelical viewpoint there will be very few with Christ after this life. Even less than those that the LDS feel will be with him. As you have posted earlier just saying you believe and accepting Christ requires a change in behavior. Change in behavior requires that you do something, works? Not specific works like baptism and other things but make a change.

There are few that accept Christ and make significant changes in their lives. As there are few that make covenants based on LDS doctrine and continue with them through their lives. As I understand from you it is a yes or no, Heaven or Hell proposition with Evangelical Christians where we believe in a more just judgement based on how we have lived our lives and put in to practice Christ's teachings.

I know I ramble but those are my thoughts.

[prisonchaplain]

Or in other words, we believe we (the Church) already have all of the truth our Lord has given to everyone on Earth, and we also believe our Lord is continuing to guide us through revelation, both personally and through prophets who are appointed to speak in His behalf.  Somehow I have the idea that you don’t know that we know that.

I know that the LDS Church teaches that it holds the restored gospel and is the restored Christian church. Furthermore, I have come to understand that this teaching does not mean that other Christian denominations are "lost," but that they are lacking in some truths. Finally, I am aware that individual Mormons pray for an assurance about the trueness of their prophets and teachings, and sense that the Holy Ghost has granted them a personal confirmation.

Yes, I am calling upon you to be open to change and be willing to learn the truth, even if that means that you will need to change your whole life regarding religion.

I did so when I first received the forgiveness of Jesus for my sins. Again, when I received the baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. Yet again, when I answered the Holy Ghost's call on my life to serve as a missionary in Korea for nearly seven years. Also, when the Holy Ghost called me to study for three years at graduate level seminary (something that was nowhere on my personal radar screen). A major one is when the Holy Ghost told me I was not going back to Korea to serve, but would instead do God's ministry in federal prison. I state none of this as self-congratulations, but rather to demonstrate that when God calls me to stop, to go, to turn, to remain straight--I listen and obey. People die for many reasons, but the only worthy reason is to remain truth to God's truth.

My sense is that most of the serious participants at this site would ultimately do the same. If you knew that you knew that you knew God was speaking to you--you would drop everything to hear and obey!

I am not expecting you to speak only a little, but I do expect you to learn much and change much because we do indeed have much truth to share with you.  And once you accept this fact, it will change your life.  Are you having trouble with the idea that we (the Church) already have the truth? ... And now that you have found us, I hope you are now open to finding all of the truth we have available to us, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. ... Or in other words, we are not asking you to throw away any truth that you have. We are simply asking you to be open to the idea that we have more truth than you currently know.

Once again, I'm aware of the LDS teaching concerning the restored gospel and restored church. We are not in agreement on this point. However, as I have said repeatedly, we're here to discuss. We have things we are certain about. The Holy Ghost will speak to our hearts, and I am confident we will all try to "have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying."

Search the scriptures, and even if you limit yourself to those only in the Holy Bible, and the personal assistance you can receive from our Lord through the power of the Holy Ghost, you should be able to discover the idea that there are varying degrees of salvation, as well as those who will be sent to outer darkness because they were and continue to be totally rebellious against our Lord. 

At present, I think you don't know all of the truth about this, and since I have already tried to explain it myself, I’ll now refer you to the best sources available.

While I can certainly see believers receiving different rewards in heaven (i.e. deathbed conversions vs. martyrs), at the same time there is that parable about those workers hired early in the morning vs. those hired one hour before quitting time receiving the same basic pay. If the teaching concerning levels of salvation is true, then it's true. However, from the outsider's perspective, the doctrine seems both too restrictive and too loose. Too restrictive, in that the highest salvation is dependent upon allegiance to an organization (the restored church), and too loose because the least restrictive level is not even dependent upon allegiance to the one true God, much less repentence and belief in Jesus Christ (see John 14:6).

[prisonchaplain]

BenRaines,Nov 23 2005, 12:11 PM to prisonchaplin,

Please do not be put off by someone sharing their feelings of their beliefs. You have presented views that I have not even thought of before. Sharing ideas does not mean that we have to attempt to convert each other but to share common and diverse beliefs. As you have stated earlier we find in many cases more things in common than different.

It's probably healthy for me to experience a little bit of being evangelized

You are right about our view of the rewards for those who accept Christ as Savior and those who do not. I have always had a problem with a pass/fail system. My thought is that in the Evangelical viewpoint there will be very few with Christ after this life. Even less than those that the LDS feel will be with him. As you have posted earlier just saying you believe and accepting Christ requires a change in behavior. Change in behavior requires that you do something, works? Not specific works like baptism and other things but make a change.

There are few that accept Christ and make significant changes in their lives. As there are few that make covenants based on LDS doctrine and continue with them through their lives. As I understand from you it is a yes or no, Heaven or Hell proposition with Evangelical Christians where we believe in a more just judgement based on how we have lived our lives and put in to practice Christ's teachings.

Quite frankly, it's easy to understand why many would find LDS theology on this point attractive. It strikes most people as just and nice to give most people some rewards, and the most obedient and faithful and truth-embracing people great rewards. To use your words, it seems "more just."

However, I do not see this teaching in my reading of the Holy Bible. On the other hand, that "narrow gate" may not be as narrow as we imagine. There is only one way (Jesus--John 14:6), but that way is available to "whosoever will." Additionally, those with sincere hearts, may struggle along the path, but Jesus' forgiveness is 70X7. He declares to his followers, "If you confess your sins, God is faithful and just to forgive..." Also, remember that the total number of those in the world who at least identify themselves as Christian is 2 billion. That's an optimistic count, but it surely demonstrates that this is a narrow gate with high capacity.

Of one thing I am certain. On the day of judgment no one will be second-guessing God. All will say that He was just and right and merciful. There is a saying that the two biggest surprises in heaven will be who is there and who is not. My guess is that most at this site will say "Amen" to that.

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Your "rambling thoughts" always come across and intelligent, straightforward, and sincere. Kudos to you!