What to do when you question a book of scripture?

[mnn727]

None of the former profits of old ever gave a prophecy that did not come true, or that have been proven false.

Ever hear of a guy named Jonah and what he told Ninevah?

[JohnOF123]

Ever hear of a guy named Jonah and what he told Ninevah?

Yea, Jonah told them if they didn't repent, God was going to destroy them. They repented, and God did not destroy them. Is that what you mean?

[rameumptom]

Hey I was just wondering how you might reconcile this looser view of prophets with the Old Testament version in which the Jews were commanded by God to stone men who claimed to be prophets, but spoke of things that were not true or did not come to pass. Would some of these prophets have been stoned if they lived back then? I'm curious to what people think on this. Not trying to be confrontational, but I really do wonder how this matter is resolved in the eyes of the LDS.

The scripture actually says that if the prophecy does not come to pass, one does not have to fear the prophet. False prophets were those who taught against belief in Jehovah or in rebellion against the prophet.

We're not talking about either here. If we were to stone every prophet who gave a wrong prophesy, we would have to stone Moses and Jesus.

[rameumptom]

I get your message. Prophets are human but they are called by god. Fair enough.

But how do I know what to believe and what not to if it turnes out that not everything is correct? It doesn't help to believe in their divine calling if there is still incorrect doctrine coming out of their mouth. Even if most of it is correct. By their fruits ye shall know them. If 90% is good or correct and the rest incorrect, how does it help? Didn't Jesus give a parable of a good tree, that cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree that cannot bring forth good fruit? Didn't Jesus warn us about false prophets or wolves in sheepclothing? Not saying any of our prophets are such, but don't we HAVE to be a bit more suspicious or investigative some times with what is being said? Can I put so much blind trust in somebody else? Just questions that are on my mind when I read your position.

Each of us must be a prophet in our own lives. It is not for us to accept their statements blindly, but to obtain our own testimony via the Holy Spirit. If I have a testimony of tithing, and the prophet teaches us to pay our tithes, I don't have to get a new testimony of it.

But had I lived in Joseph Smith's day and he told me about polygamy, I'd do as Heber C. Kimball: Elder Kimball told Joseph that he was going to go home and pray about it. If it were true, he would embrace it. If it were false, he would not.

THAT is how the Church is supposed to work. Sadly, the prophets give us a commandment and we either blindly follow it, or we don't get a testimony because we don't seek for one ourselves, and then don't follow the prophet.

If something is to be binding upon me, the Lord will have it made official doctrine.

[mnn727]

Yea, Jonah told them if they didn't repent, God was going to destroy them. They repented, and God did not destroy them. Is that what you mean?

You must use a different Bible than the rest of the world, Jonah did NOT tell them to repent, he said they were going to be overthrown:

Jonah 3: 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

On their own the people repented (Jonah 3: 5-9), God decide not to destroy them (Jonah 3:10)

which is what got Jonah so pissed off at God

Jonah 4: 1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.

[rameumptom]

Too many simultaneous debates going on, lol.

I would say that God knows the future, but uses situations to teach humans. This may appear that He is "changing His mind," but He knows the future. We know He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

However, I would also say that He must keep His good name perfect and solid and will not have a profit give a false prophecy, hence His command to stone false ones. None of the former profits of old ever gave a prophecy that did not come true, or that have been proven false.

Do you REALLY want to make that claim? Jesus prophesied that the 2nd coming would occur in that self-same generation. Didn't happen. Should Jesus be a false prophet, then? Or was he just giving his best understanding, given limited information he had as a mortal prophet and Messiah?

Should Jonah be stoned, because Nineveh wasn't destroyed?

There are other prophesies in the Bible, by true prophets, which did not come to pass. Again, there is a difference between a fallible prophet and a false prophet (note the correct spelling of the word "prophet").

[JohnOF123]

You must use a different Bible than the rest of the world

Yes, I must...

Do you REALLY want to make that claim? Jesus prophesied that the 2nd coming would occur in that self-same generation. Didn't happen. Should Jesus be a false prophet, then? Or was he just giving his best understanding, given limited information he had as a mortal prophet and Messiah?

Should Jonah be stoned, because Nineveh wasn't destroyed?

There are other prophesies in the Bible, by true prophets, which did not come to pass. Again, there is a difference between a fallible prophet and a false prophet (note the correct spelling of the word "prophet").

Jesus didn't say that. He said some they would see the Kingdom of God before they died. And they did... on the mountain, remember... they were brought up there and saw moses and others

And I think you have your Jonah story confused.

And there are no false prophets or prophecies in the bible.

Edited February 23, 2010 by JohnOF123

[JohnOF123]

Do you REALLY want to make that claim? Jesus prophesied that the 2nd coming would occur in that self-same generation. Didn't happen. Should Jesus be a false prophet, then? Or was he just giving his best understanding, given limited information he had as a mortal prophet and Messiah?

Should Jonah be stoned, because Nineveh wasn't destroyed?

There are other prophesies in the Bible, by true prophets, which did not come to pass. Again, there is a difference between a fallible prophet and a false prophet (note the correct spelling of the word "prophet").

Jesus didn't say that. He said some they would see the Kingdom of God before they died. And they did... on the mountain, remember... they were brought up there and saw moses and others

And I think you have your Jonah story confused.

And there are no false prophets or prophecies in the bible.

[mnn727]

And I think you have your Jonah story confused.

I posted the story above

And there are no false prophets or prophecies in the bible.

as long as you ignore the ones that are there or don't bother reading them.

Go read the Book of Jonah, its only 4 chapters, should take you 10 - 15 minutes at most.

[mnn727]

Jesus didn't say that. He said some they would see the Kingdom of God before they died. And they did... on the mountain, remember... they were brought up there and saw moses and others

.

So the Kingdom of God is 2 dead Prophets on a mountain?

[JohnOF123]

So the Kingdom of God is 2 dead Prophets on a mountain?

"The Greek word translated “kingdom” can also be translated “royal splendor,” meaning that the three disciples standing there would see Christ as He really is—the King of heaven—which occurred in the transfiguration.

The “transfiguration” refers to the event described in the above cited passages when Jesus took Peter, James, and John to the top of the mountain, where He met with Moses and Elijah—representing the Law and the Prophets of the Old Testament—and spoke with them. The disciples saw Jesus in all His glory and splendor, talking with a glorified Moses and Elijah. This is a glimpse of what will occur in Jesus' kingdom. The disciples were dumbstruck at the sight and “fell on their faces” (Matthew 17:6).

It seems most natural to interpret this promise in Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1; and Luke 9:27 as a reference to the transfiguration, which "some" of the disciples would witness only six days later, exactly as Jesus predicted. In each Gospel, the very next passage after this promise from Jesus is the transfiguration, which shows Jesus in all His glory which will be seen again in the Kingdom of God. The contextual links make it very likely that this is the proper interpretation."-Gotquestions.org

[marts1]

The verse before Matthew 16:28 tells me he's referring to a much later time.

I could say the same thing about Luke as well.

Edited February 23, 2010 by marts1

[JohnOF123]

I think we all agree that Jesus was God. He performed miracles, died for us and saved the World. I cannot believe we are proposing that Jesus Himself gave false prophecies. Think about what you're saying guys.

Edited February 23, 2010 by JohnOF123

[marts1]

It is strange for sure.

[mnn727]

John -- still waiting for you to read Jonah

[mnn727]

I think we all agree that Jesus was God. He performed miracles, died for us and saved the World. I cannot believe we are proposing that Jesus Himself gave false prophecies. Think about what you're saying guys.

We're saying your "test" is not correct and the Bible is not without error

[Blackmarch]

I see your viewpoint here. But it just begs the question: How do you know what to believe and what not to believe, since I think you're implying somethings said are not true? Or did I misunderstand what you meant with that?

I'm open to any plausibility until the spirit ratchets down the choice for me so far that has been 3 things in my life.

1) God and his existance and love for us.

2) Christ and his atonement and love for us.

3) That God has taken Joseph Smith as his servant.

Now beyond those things what influences one way or the other?

1) If it helps me feel the spirit then i am much much more inclined to think that it is something God wants for me.

2) How well it makes sense- If lacking all the above this is the next biggy. How well something can fit with it's context, evidences, etc...

In regards to prophecy. If it invites the spirit or has the spirit attendant to it then i'll more likely heed it (or try to heed it off the bat), otherwise it'll be shelved and watched.

When God gives prophecy he'll give something that will affect the people in some way or put them in some state. Usually its to provide 2-way path, so that if you chosse to believe and follow the prophecy you will recieve some sort of increase, whereas if you don't you lose that much. God already knows the outcome.

My experience with "failed prophecy" is not that the prophecy has failed, but that one or more things has occured;

1) Failing to understand the prophecy.

2) Failing to understand what prophecy is.

3) Failing to understand why it is given.

[JohnOF123]

John -- still waiting for you to read Jonah

First, Jonah didn't make a mistake, for he told the Ninevites precisely what God had told him to say (Jonah 3:1). Since God cannot err (Hebrews 6:18; Titus 1:2), this is not a false statement.

Secondly, there was an implied condition in Jonah's exhortation to Nineveh -- "Unless you repent, God will destroy you." So the fulfillment of the threat of judgment was contingent on the repentance of Nineveh -- a fact proven by their repentance (see Jonah 3:5) as well as by Jonah's selfish admission that he was afraid from the beginning that they would repent and God would save them (4:2).

And Third, God's allowance of repentance in the face of judgment is stated as a principle in Jeremiah 18:7-8: "If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned." This principle is illustrated in the case of Nineveh.

Biblical prophets were 100-percent accurate (Deuteronomy 18:22).

[Kukui]

John,

Thanks for clearing up that Jonah thing very nicely. I came into this thread late and 1. I don’t want you to feel like you are being ganged up on and 2. I want to see if I understand your comments/understanding about the transfiguration.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

So you are saying that the prediction “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels” is fulfilled in the first few verses in chapter 17?

If the answer is yes, then what does “and then he shall reward every man according to his works” mean to you? Because that “reward” part throws my mind all the way to the end times. How are you seeing that reward thing as part of the same/current event? Or did I miss the point completely?

[JohnOF123]

John,

Thanks for clearing up that Jonah thing very nicely. I came into this thread late and 1. I don’t want you to feel like you are being ganged up on and 2. I want to see if I understand your comments/understanding about the transfiguration.

So you are saying that the prediction “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels” is fulfilled in the first few verses in chapter 17?

If the answer is yes, then what does “and then he shall reward every man according to his works” mean to you? Because that “reward” part throws my mind all the way to the end times. How are you seeing that reward thing as part of the same/current event? Or did I miss the point completely?

Jesus is indeed speaking about end times. The "see my glory" promise prophecies to their glimpse into the Kindgom of God. And the works verse is this: those who are saved by faith, their works will be tried by fire, and anything out of wrong motivation, or not for God, will be burnt up. There is no condemnation for those who are saved. Two separate judgements. I can exlaberate on any of this if you wish, I just want to let you know that Jesus is indeed talking about the end, but is not implying that His second coming is within 50 years, that's ludacrous. That is something Athesista say, not Christians, lol.

Why would Jesus have given us a whole list of things that was going to happen before His second coming, and then say this? World population is soon to peak. He said if He did not return when He does, that no flesh would survive. The harvest is not yet over, perhaps this means if He did not return in the end times, that maybe an A-bomb would kill everybody, who knows. But there are many more things to happen. The Jews just returned to their land in 1948.

There are also Christians who argue that the Second coming has already occurred, and this is one of the verses they use. Christ proved His deity, we know Christ was God, as Christians, let's not distort the Bible's complete context. (Not you Kukui, I'm just speaking generally.)

[mnn727]

<<shaking head>> There are none so blind as those who will not see.

John, I read the words that are there and don't do the mental gymnastics to make scripture fit my preconceived notions

Sorry John, but any more conversation about Scripture and Prophets with you are probably worthless as we have tottally different views on Scripture.

I wish you well.

Edited February 24, 2010 by mnn727

[ozzy]

A quick point if I may. I won't say that I think that the Bible is 100% accurate, as it has passed through too many hands to be so. That said it is remarkably accurate all things considered. About the Jonah thing, mnn, you make the point that Jonah didn't tell Ninevah to repent but simply that they would be destroyed. Thing is, that argument assumes that everything Jonah told Ninevah is actually recorded in the Bible.

We can not operate under the assumption that every single thing is recorded in the Bible, or that all of the important things are recorded there. Assuming this is basically saying that you only need 1600 pages of text to cover all of God's important words and works in approximately 4000 years. There is a lot of skimming and skipping done and many things left out.

I would like to also point out that this is why the BoM and living prophets are as important as they are.

[mnn727]

About the Jonah thing, mnn, you make the point that Jonah didn't tell Ninevah to repent but simply that they would be destroyed. Thing is, that argument assumes that everything Jonah told Ninevah is actually recorded in the Bible.

If that were the case, then why would Jonah have gotten mad at God for not destroying Ninevah - wouldn't make a bit of sense would it?

No offense but I think y'all need to actually read the scripture before commenting on it.

Edited February 24, 2010 by mnn727

[rameumptom]

If Jonah's warning to Nineveh included an implied exception for their repentance, then why did Jonah sulk?

The Mt of Transfiguration occurred BEFORE Jesus' prophecy in Matt 24-25 of the last days. He could not have referred to the event on the Mount, because it was in the past, and he references a future event of the Kingdom of God.

You truly are working hard to twist what is actually being said in the scriptures. I suppose if we twist everything around enough, then nothing is a false prophesy. BTW, Jesus did not make a false prophesy, he had a correct prophesy with an incorrect prediction in it. Jesus IS our Savior, but while on earth he did not know all things. After all, he said that no one knew the time of the 2nd Coming, not even the Son of Man, save the Father. If he didn't know when it was, why should we be shocked when he is wrong concerning when it would occur? He guessed wrong.

The scriptures are before us. We can read what they state, or we can twist them to read what we want them to say. Either way, it proves that the Bible is not perfect, but is inspired.

[JohnOF123]

<<shaking head>> There are none so blind as those who will not see.

John, I read the words that are there and don't do the mental gymnastics to make scripture fit my preconceived notions

Sorry John, but any more conversation about Scripture and Prophets with you are probably worthless as we have tottally different views on Scripture.

I wish you well.

Deuteronomy 18:22

If you don't trust everything in the Bible, I would highly advise that you find something that you do. In my case, the Bible has done something no other book on Earth has. Revealed the future with stunning 100% accuracy hundreds of times. It stands the test of time in prophecy, archeology, science, history. No other book has proven this to me, I trust that it is God's Word. Jesus quoted Moses in the old testament and said that they were God's words.

Jesus did not make a false prophesy... He guessed wrong.

Jesus = God

Jesus did not know the exact date of His coming = True

Jesus guessed His second coming = False

Your statement = incorrect

BTW, what do you think guessing wrong is, in this case, it would have resulted in Jesus making a false prophecy. Christians don't believe this, I advise you don't either. Maybe you should talk to your Bishop about this one.

Edited February 24, 2010 by JohnOF123