A New Word Of Wisdom Problem?

[Jason]

That's right kiddies, there's a new soft-drink coming to town. It's Coke with Coffee! Yep, you heard me right. It's Coke Classic with coffee extracts.

Will it be against the Word of Wisdom? Will you drink it? Will it even taste good?

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle....BLAK.xml&rpc=23

[StrawberryFields]

Hummmmm don't know about that... If I will drink it or not.

I know coke isn't the greatest thing for us either. Have you seen what it does to a nail when it is left to soak in it for a few days?

[pushka]

Interesting...can somebody confirm to me when and why it became okay to drink Coke, even tho it's got Caffeine in it?

[lisajo]

Originally posted by pushka@Dec 7 2005, 09:29 AM

Interesting...can somebody confirm to me when and why it became okay to drink Coke, even tho it's got Caffeine in it?

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Good Question Pushka,

Any ways if i were going to drink that new coke with coffee i might as well drink coffee! Whats the point,? the amount of caffeine?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by pushka@Dec 7 2005, 11:29 AM

Interesting...can somebody confirm to me when and why it became okay to drink Coke, even tho it's got Caffeine in it?

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My understanding is that it is not only the caffeine that it bad for us but the others things. Chocolate also has caffeine but it isn't ever questioned, there would be an outrage among many women if it became a problem.

I have seen many "good" followers drink caffeine free coke.

[Heather]

The WoW never says "caffeine." And it is quite possible that caffeine is not the reason that coffee and tea (hot drinks) are bad. However, caffeine is a stimulate and therefore not something healthy we should be consuming. It has never been said, "Coke is okay."

[Setheus]

Everything in moderation. Even moderation.

[Jason]

If we're speaking historically, then Coffee was not even intended to be on the hit list of the WoW.

Hot drinks = hard liquor.

Some knucklehead, quite after the fact, decided that hot drinks included coffee and tea.

Then there's the well worn and tired myth of Tanin in coffee....

[Guest ToasterOfen]

As others have stated, caffeine and caffeinated beverages have not been "officially" declared against the word of wisdom. Although coffee and some teas contain caffeine, it is the other things in them that contribute to them being agains the WoW. They were the "drink" of the time, and were addictive.

However, Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew, etc. were not around at the time the WoW was given; so who knows, if the WoW was "given" today, those drinks may have been included. But...we are given the power of discernment, so we don't have to be told every little detail of what we can and cannot do/have.

The pure "caffeine" reason for something being against the WoW gets a bit tricky as well because caffeine does have certain "good" medicinal purposes. If caffeine were against the WoW, then Excedrin (contains caffeine) would be against the WoW too. And sometimes for me, the ONLY way I can get a headache to stop is with Excedrin...most of the time, Motrin or Tylenol won't touch it, and then it turns into the most horrible migraine with head pounding, eyes hurting...I become nauseous, and throw-up. If I can't get Excedrin, then I'll drink a Dr. Pepper (I hate Coke and Pepsi) because it will stop the headache.

And chocolate??? Again, the caffeine reason is tricky. The WoW set out a few things for us (coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol) to follow and adhere to, but also to give us a set of guidelines to help us navigate the world of food and medicine. If you read it, it talks about eating good food, all within reason, and talks about the medicinal uses of tobacco, and "strong drinks" for the washing of the body.

Anything, whether it be chocolate, caffeine, sugar, sleeping, s*x, exercise, eating...can be used to extremes and become addictive. The ones laid out in the WoW were the most common at the time (and still are), and alcohol and tobacco have now been shown to cause much damage (drinking and driving, brain damage, babies born with alcohol syndrome, alcoholism; lung and mouth cancers, heart disease. Both of my grandfathers died of lung cancer.)

So, my thought is that although caffeinated beverages like Coke and Pepsi are not "officially" against the WoW, they should be avoided because they are/can be addictive; so the Coke w/Coffee (because it does contain extracts of coffee) would be an absolute no-no.

And Jason's question, about whether it would taste good...I think it would be disgusting! I don't like the taste of Coke or Coffee...and yes, I have tasted both, so I think the taste would be atrocious. But it did say just "the extracts of coffee"? So would there even be a "coffee" taste to it?

[Guest ToasterOfen]

And yes, Jason is right...coffee and [tea] (I accidentally said tobacco first) are not specifically named in the WoW in D&C. But I think "hot drinks" does equal coffee and tea, and "strong drinks" to wine and alcohol.

[Ray]

For those of us old enough to remember John Belushi on SNL:

No Coke, Pepsi. (and for me, caffeine free)

For those of us old enough to remember President Hinckley on Larry King:

No Coffee, Postum. (and I actually prefer the original vs. coffee flavor)

And btw, I was once NOT a member of the Church and enjoyed coffee and tea.

(iced tea with lemon, with sugar and cream in the coffee)

Ahh, sacrifice. :)

[Jason]

Ya know Ray, that post made me think of something...would god really require a complete abstainance of all things all the time? I mean, if it's part of God's creation, would not moderation be a better rule?

[BenRaines]

Brings us back to agency doesn't it. I would rather see someone drinking a Coke or a Pepsi every now and then and having charity than someone who is sanctimonious about Coke and Pepsi use and has no charity.

[LionHeart]

Actually I believe that the reason coffee and tea are considered strong drink is because they contain a substance called tanic acid. That is the reason; not the fact that they have caffiene. So even decaf would be against the W.o.W. However, the most improtant part of the word of wisdom is not the things it says to eat or not eat, it is all summed up in verse 18: "All saints who remeber to keep and do these sayings, 'Walking In Obedience To The Commandments', shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones." So in other words it doesn't do anyone a bit of good if they don't also live God's commandments.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 7 2005, 02:12 PM

Ya know Ray, that post made me think of something...would god really require a complete abstainance of all things all the time?  I mean, if it's part of God's creation, would not moderation be a better rule?

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Yes, I think so, but in this case it would be moderation of coffee beans and cocoa beans and tea leaves, not a moderation of Starbucks and CocaCola and Lipton, because neither of those latter products is a creation of God.

[Ray]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Dec 7 2005, 02:32 PM

Brings us back to agency doesn't it.  I would rather see someone drinking a Coke or a Pepsi every now and then and having charity than someone who is sanctimonious about Coke and Pepsi use and has no charity.

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I would rather see someone who has charity and is NOT sanctimonious.

It is possible, you know.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 7 2005, 03:12 PM

Ya know Ray, that post made me think of something...would god really require a complete abstainance of all things all the time?  I mean, if it's part of God's creation, would not moderation be a better rule?

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I think that God allows us to be our own moderators as we are capable, we as in the church. The Hebrews were given a much more stringent code of health, and made to live a lesser law. There were probably many who could have lived the higher law, but because of the wickedness of many, the code was imposed on all. Many today most likely could live correctly with out a code of health, but because of the wickedness of many, we all get the WoW.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Good point Seamusz, much more elloquently put than I could have.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by LionHeart@Dec 7 2005, 02:45 PM

Actually I believe that the reason coffee and tea are considered strong drink is because they contain a substance called tanic acid. That is the reason;  not the fact that they have caffiene.....

I think coffee and tea are considered hot drinks and alcohol is considered strong drink.

And a little education regarding tannins, tannic acid, etc.:

tannins

Any of a broad group of plant-derived phenolic compounds characterised by their ability to precipitate proteins. Some are more toxic than others, depending on their source. Those derived from nutgalls are believed to be carcinogens, while those found in tea and coffee may be virtually nontoxic.

http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?tannins

tannin

<chemistry, plant biology> Bitter-tasting, complex aromatic compounds found in the vacuoles of certain plant cells, for example in bark. Some are glucosides, possibly giving protection to the plant or concerned with pigment formation.They are strongly astringent and are used in tanning and dyeing.

http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?tannin

tannic acid

n.

1. A white or yellowish astringent powder, C14H10O9, derived from nutgalls and used as a denaturant and in tanning and textiles.

2. A lustrous yellowish to light brown amorphous, powdered, flaked, or spongy mass having the approximate composition C76H52O46, derived from the bark and fruit of many plants and used in photography, as a mordant, and to clarify wine and beer.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tannic%20acid

Tea Tannins vs Tannic Acid

There seems to be much confusion about Tea Tannins and Tannic Acid; they are NOT the same. Tannic Acid is found in, for example, Oak leaves and, originally, was extracted to perform the task of tanning leather. Tea Tannins will not tan leather.

The formula for Tannic Acid (Acidum Tannicum) is: C14 H10 O9

The formula for Tea Tannins is: C20 H20 O9

http://www.teatalk.com/science/tannin.htm

M.

[BenRaines]

Ray, Did you understand my post? You said what I said. Better to have charity and drink a Coke or Pepsi than make a big thing about not drinking one and condemning others and not have charity.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Dec 7 2005, 06:31 PM

Ray, Did you understand my post? You said what I said.  Better to have charity and drink a Coke or Pepsi than make a big thing about not drinking one and condemning others and not have charity.

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I think Ray just meant that being Charitable and being sanctimonious don't need to go together... I don't think he was disagreeing, just commenting.

[BenRaines]

They shouldn't be together. If you have charity I don't believe you can be sanctimonious. That was my point. Many worry to much about WoW and have not charity for their brother. If you are sanctimonious I don't believe you will have charity. I thought it was very clear.

[Jason]

Thanks Maureen. Apparently the new poster didn't bother to read all of the thread. I pointed out in #8 that Tannin was incorrectly understood.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 7 2005, 06:14 PM

Thanks Maureen.  Apparently the new poster didn't bother to read all of the thread.  I pointed out in #8 that Tannin was incorrectly understood.

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Although the dangers of Tannin may be a misunderstanding or exaggeration, this is what is being taught today...I can say this as someone who has taken the missionary discussions relatively recently.

I asked a missionary about the "coffee vs. caffeinated soft drinks" issue. He said that it was NOT caffeine that was forbidden.

He said that the reason coffee and tea are forbidden in the WoW is because of "tannic acid". He explained briefly a few things that also contain tannic acid that we would never consume (I can't remember what it was...maybe it was leather dyes), to clarify how disgusting it was.

That is why so many LDS are drinking sodas, even to the point where their caffeine consumption exceeds that of the average coffee drinker, and it is not a problem in their Temple Recommend interview.

I double-checked this information with my bishop...the one who interviewed me for baptism. He verified that caffeine was not the problem. This was in response to my question of whether or not it was ok to drink decaf coffee. He said that decaf coffee was agains the WoW, because it was "other things" in the coffee that made it unhealthy...not caffeine.

The bishop also emphasized that the WoW was not just an "obedience test" (although I believe that this is exactly what it is).

Contrast that with what President Hinckley said on Larry King (or was it some other show?)...when asked "no coffee, no tea, no caffeinated soft drinks?" (I don't remember the exact quote)...and he responded that this was correct.

So that implies that caffeine IS the problem. So either he made a mistake (which is ok)...or he interprets the WoW the old fashioned way...being from a different generation....and maybe he isn't up to date on the latest missionary teachings?

Or maybe he just lives a stricter WoW in his personal life, which he does not expect of the rest of the LDS? Its possible

What else can be said on this topic?

Decaf coffee is unhealthy because of certain chemicals. This was found in a recent study, I believe. So the bishop was right about that. I'm not sure about decaf tea...

However there is nothing PROVEN to be harmful in regular coffee or tea. On the contrary, green tea is supposed to be good for you.

I would guess both coffee and tea are not unhealthy in moderation.

On the other hand, soft drinks are terribly unhealthy...but not forbidden by WoW.

Then again, in moderation, they probably are not so bad. Anything in excess can be bad for you.

I'm not a prophet of course, but if if the WoW were a serious health code it would simply state "everything in moderation". Period.

But my point is...

...tannic acid is definately taught by the Church to be the source of evil found in coffee and tea.

But as we know, different bishops have been known to teach different things, so I don't know that there is an OFFICIAL explanation for the coffee/tea prohibition.

[BenRaines]

I don't know where it is taught in Gospel Essentials or Gospel Doctrine or any other, what I would call, approved material that it is tannic acid that we do not drink hot drinks.

I think for those that wish to live the Word of Wisdom to the best of their ability they should follow the prophet. For those that want to live by the letter of the law then it is defined as coffee and tea as far as hot drinks, includes Iced Tea, and alcohol and tobacco, smoked or chewed would be considered violations of the Word of Wisdom.

All things in moderation and in their time and season.

I like the saying "I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves" We should not have to be commanded in all things.