PC finishes BoM -- observations

[prisonchaplain]

Of course I realise you are new to the book ol chap. I commend your efforts. In my situation having read this book maybe 30 times in the last 4 or 5 years, I'm sure I would be severly repromanded if I read it in the manner you have. If you do ever make the attempt to read it again try slowing down and feel the words. I'm sure what you have takin in so far would be a great benefit to you if you take the time to read it again.

But, of course. On the other hand, I have encouraged my Bible students to take a year and try to read the Bible through three or four times, in the very manner I did here. Why? Not to gain detailed doctrinal understanding, but to "catch the lay of the land," so to speak. It's amazing how a broad overview can help protect one from false detailed interpretation. I've heard some creative, and initially compelling teachings on a passage of scripture, that only proved invalid when put against that survey-reading I'd done. The teaching just didn't fit the overall flow of the Bible. So, yes, surely I'd need to read it more carefully if I wanted to have a "fair" understanding of it. On the other hand, sometimes the quick skimming can help us see the forest from the trees.

[prisonchaplain]

There are actual answers for this. We could discuss specifics if you wanted to say which of those anachronisms you wanted to discuss first?

Sure. The strangest passage was probably the chapter in which the there is found a temple where the people are reciting formula prayers that give thanks for their election. I believe that's the passage in which infant baptism is condemned as well. I'm just unaware that any of these were major doctrinal issues prior to the Reformation. So, any commentary you have and that passage would be useful.

[prisonchaplain]

BTW, PC, you will have to read it slower, so you don't miss the great stories in the BoM. I really like the one where Brigham Young rides the buffalo.

LOL...interestingly the passage containing your web handle was one of the most interesting.

[ttribe]

Sure. The strangest passage was probably the chapter in which the there is found a temple where the people are reciting formula prayers that give thanks for their election. I believe that's the passage in which infant baptism is condemned as well. I'm just unaware that any of these were major doctrinal issues prior to the Reformation. So, any commentary you have and that passage would be useful.

Actually, the condemnation of infant baptism was several books, and a few hundred years later.

[Justice]

Over the years I've noticed that JS's education seems to get demoted over time. At one time he had a 4th grade education, then it became 3rd grade and now it's down to 2nd grade; in about 20 years he's going to be described as an idiot savant. Whatever level he received in his actual formal education, JS was an intelligent man; probably self taught in some areas.

M.

My point was that his translating the Book of Mormon did not come from what he learned at school, or what he, himself, could glean from the Bible. His education was full underway when he was translating the Book of Mormon, but the vast majority of what he learned came AFTER he translated the Book of Mormon.

At 40, having lived a life close to the Lord, it would be easier to believe that he wrote it. But, at 20ish, not having been to college, high school, or middle school, makes it virtually impossible that he did it on his own.

In later life he was an intelligent man, indeed, probably more so than he ever said or anyone believed. I never meant to imply he wasn't.

I have heard he had a 3rd or 2nd grade education, I haven't heard 4th. But, considering that education was based on 1820 schools and learning, it was probably no where near comparable to what a 1st grade education is now.

[Justice]

Also, you will be interested to know that the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price indicates that not only did Moses know the name of the mortal Messiah, but so did Adam. Adam was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ and was baptized.

The New Testament seems to suggest that Old Testament prophets taught "the Gospel" also:

Romans 10:

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

[Justice]

IMHO Joseph Smith was certainly a poster child for home schooling!

Seriously, even his fiercist critics could not deny that he operated with a certain level of genius. I also see influences from his early experiences with religion--as well as those of his father (I watched a few films while I visited Temple Square). He read his Bible, knew the main controversies of his day, and held some strong views.

Whether the BoM is the result of God's direct visitation, raw and unschooled human genius, or some combination of inspiration and giftedness, I would guess even LDS have slightly varied opinions. Allegory or literal, right?

PC, with all the feeling I can muster I tell you that it was impossible for any man to write the Book of Mormon without inspiration from God.

Even today, with the internet as a help, it would be impossible for anyone to write it.

It's true, PC. It is a history book of God's dealing with the ancient people of the Americas.

It is the pivotal work in the last days to prepare the world for the re-coming of the Messiah.

[Justice]

And, as far as him being home schooled...

None of his family in any of their journals mentioned home schooling. They lived on a farm and when they were home they were tending to their farm. It was a lot of hard work and they had little time for school is why he didn't attend school more.

[Justice]

That's not totally accurate or fair.

Now, c'mon, PC. You admitted that you "modified" Moroni's challenge. You have been around us long enough to know this promise and that one must read it believeing, not doubting. Your words suggest you didn't read the Book of Mormon for the purpose to know if it's true. I wasn't slamming you, I was pointing out these things by your own admission.

Likewise, I don't come with a presupposition that this is likely holy writ, and that all I need is a bit of spiritual confirmation. But, I did come with an open heart, looking for the Spirit to direct my understanding. I was open to any confirmation, though I was not predisposed towards it.

A long way of saying you do not believe it can be true, or maybe you don't want it to be true. You are comfortable where you are and seek no further truth.

I state it as a fact, not a slam. There are so many areas of my life where I am guilty of the same. I hold myself in much higher discontent because I do know it's true, but don't live it as I should. So, please don't think I'm trying to cut you down or say you're not a good person.

Put another way, I was certainly in a better place for God to convince me than Saul was, when he was on his way to Damascus.

This is interesting. Saul was seeking to establish God's word based on the scriptures they had, the Law and the Prophets (Old Testament). He was following the counsel of those who were in leadership positions in what he felt was God's "church." What he did not do was accept the fulfillment of those scriptures, or their fulness and the very Messiah they proclaimed.

Okay, maybe not a knock. But, it did seem like a pinch.

I hope you see that all I did was base my words on what you claimed you did. Don't look to harshly on what I said, but maybe look more harshly on what you said you did.

If you were really genuinely curious to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you would not have approached it the way you did. All I'm trying to say is that if you are ever going to know it's true, you're going to have to take the real challenge. :) I think you already know that.

That's not a knock on you, but my way of helping you see you went about it wrong.

[Vanhin]

Justice,

I don't think the experiment is over for Prisonchaplain by any stretch. The fact that a non-LDS Christian minister has taken the time to investigate the Book of Mormon to the extent that he has, speaks much of his lack of anymosity towards us and his desire to seek truth.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Justice]

Agreed.

Most don't take Moroni's challenge because they really don't understand it. PC is different. He does.

I guess I'm saying he understood but chose not to do it the only way he knew it could bring results.

It's his choice, of course.

[Carl62]

PC, with all the feeling I can muster I tell you that it was impossible for any man to write the Book of Mormon without inspiration from God.

That's very true. What I'd also like to add is why would Joseph Smith, if he just made the BoM all up and is far from Christian as some percieve him to be, go about writing a book that actually teaches more about Jesus Christ than the New Testament does? The BoM mentions Jesus on average of every 1.7 verses compared to 2.3 in the New Testament. Of the 6,000 verses in the BoM, far more than half refer directly to Him.

[FunkyTown]

Sure. The strangest passage was probably the chapter in which the there is found a temple where the people are reciting formula prayers that give thanks for their election. I believe that's the passage in which infant baptism is condemned as well. I'm just unaware that any of these were major doctrinal issues prior to the Reformation. So, any commentary you have and that passage would be useful.

You have stumbled across one of my favourite parts of the Book of Mormon: The Zoramites.

First, to understand how these became doctrinal issues, you have to understand a bit about the Zoramites.

The Zoramites show up a few times in the Book of Mormon and, for a group that seemed relatively tiny, they have a disproportionate amount of power for their time. They're made Captains of the Lamanite armies. They're the only group that, militarily, ever seem to give the Nephites trouble and the only man to wound Moroni was Jacob, a Zoramite.

A couple of things:

The Zoramites only came in to being around 75 BC.

Book of Mormon Peoples - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

They were highly organized and may have had a formal military structure, which would explain why they were the only ones to really give the Nephites a hard time. Historically, professional soldiers would usually do much better against raised militia. I humbly submit Sparta, the Romans and the Assyrians for examples of this warrior vs soldier dichotomy.

What does all that have to do with your question?

The Zoramites were a highly organized society. This type of thought, historically, tends towards ritualism. As a religious society, they tended towards things that would displease God simply because they placed their societal mores above the requirements of their God. I submit their difficulties, such as formalized prayer with no emphasis on a relationship with God and the thrusting out of those with low social status ended up being a natural outgrowth of those things that were important to the Zoramites. You can see this throughout history and it seems to be a repeating pattern. In fact, I would be surprised if the pattern so often seen in the bible - Of Piety->Ritualism->Secularism->fall from grace didn't repeat itself in the Book of Mormon. I submit it's a repeat of the type seen in Exodus and when Solomon built the temple(Which became a place for merchants when the Saviour came).

[miztrniceguy]

I think it is nice that PC is open minded enough to read it at all. How many times has someone knocked on your door and tried to give you religious materials and given you a horrified look if you suggest you will take theirs if they will take yours?

I am sure PC is not done reading.

[rameumptom]

I appreciate PC studying the Book of Mormon with an open mind. Most pastors I know would not read it, and of the few that would, most would be looking for things to pick apart. PC has read it and has found interesting passages that agree with his own beliefs. That is honest and refreshing, and I hope I would do the same if someone were to ask me to do similar.

[prisonchaplain]

Now, c'mon, PC. You admitted that you "modified" Moroni's challenge. You have been around us long enough to know this promise and that one must read it believeing, not doubting. Your words suggest you didn't read the Book of Mormon for the purpose to know if it's true. I wasn't slamming you, I was pointing out these things by your own admission.

Maybe I haven't been around long enough. If I believed, I would not need to pray, right? My "modified" prayer was for wisdom and discernment. It was not a rejection, and there was openness to whatever the Spirit might reveal to me.

A long way of saying you do not believe it can be true, or maybe you don't want it to be true. You are comfortable where you are and seek no further truth.

I'd suggest we're straining at nuances here. I believe it could be true. It's plausible. Do I want it to be true? Well, that's not really relevant. I want to be in the truth, so if it is, I want God to show me.

I state it as a fact, not a slam. There are so many areas of my life where I am guilty of the same. I hold myself in much higher discontent because I do know it's true, but don't live it as I should. So, please don't think I'm trying to cut you down or say you're not a good person.

This is interesting. Saul was seeking to establish God's word based on the scriptures they had, the Law and the Prophets (Old Testament). He was following the counsel of those who were in leadership positions in what he felt was God's "church." What he did not do was accept the fulfillment of those scriptures, or their fulness and the very Messiah they proclaimed.

I hope you see that all I did was base my words on what you claimed you did. Don't look to harshly on what I said, but maybe look more harshly on what you said you did.

No harm, no foul. You took the nuance I expressed more negatively than necessary, imho. On the other hand, if I'd been raised in the LDS faith, and then, prayed as I did, while seeking confirmation, then I could definitely agree with your assessment.

If you were really genuinely curious to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you would not have approached it the way you did. All I'm trying to say is that if you are ever going to know it's true, you're going to have to take the real challenge. :) I think you already know that.

That's not a knock on you, but my way of helping you see you went about it wrong.

I want more input on this, because it's crucial. What say my friends here at LDS.net. If a non-member, not-quite-investigator, prays for wisdom and discernment, while reading over the BoM, but has a sincere willingness to be swayed by the Spirit, will God honor that? Or, as is suggested here, must the reader/petioner be a full-fledged investigator who gives the BoM the benefit of the doubt already, and is really seeking confirmation, not direction?

Edited February 26, 2010 by prisonchaplain

[marts1]

If you truly have a desire for truth God will give it to you, on his timetable, whatever would be best for you.

[xenic101]

I think it's cool that you read the Book of Mormon, I think it's cool that you prayed for wisdom, I think it's cool you found some points of interest to you, I think you should dig into those things that caught your attention. I think it's not so cool that when sharing your thoughts and feelings on it, you were told you'd done it wrong.

[zippy_do46]

On top of everything else you now have several LDS praying for you lololol One of these days you going to wake up and feel the need to call the missionaries in your area :)

[Justice]

I want more input on this, because it's crucial. What say my friends here at LDS.net. If a non-member, not-quite-investigator, prays for wisdom and discernment, while reading over the BoM, but has a sincere willingness to be swayed by the Spirit, will God honor that? Or, as is suggested here, must the reader/petioner be a full-fledged investigator who gives the BoM the benefit of the doubt already, and is really seeking confirmation, not direction?

All anyone can do is quote the scripture to you and tell you what they think it means.

I'm telling you what I think it means.

I want to start a new thread that expresses my thoughts about this. It's about Jacob, Nephi's brother.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm feeling really good about this thread...and I had a strong feeling of accomplishment when I concluded this initial effort. Also, some good insights were shared here, some good direction given...and I even appreciate the opportunity to flesh out my own approach. Blessings to you all.

By the way...be looking for my soon to be published fiction--The Zoramite Conspiracy (j/k!)

[Iggy]

Why didn't you read it completely? Why just skimming through??

[rameumptom]

I'm feeling really good about this thread...and I had a strong feeling of accomplishment when I concluded this initial effort. Also, some good insights were shared here, some good direction given...and I even appreciate the opportunity to flesh out my own approach. Blessings to you all.

By the way...be looking for my soon to be published fiction--The Zoramite Conspiracy (j/k!)

Just make sure you spell my name right....

[BenRaines]

PC, are you going to encourage us now to read your book? The Bible? :)

I would hope that those who have given high numbers for the times they have read the Book of Mormon have also given equal attention to The Bible. For LDS they are companion scripture, a second witness. Not a replacement witness.

Great effort PC.

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

PC, are you going to encourage us now to read your book? The Bible? :)

I would hope that those who have given high numbers for the times they have read the Book of Mormon have also given equal attention to The Bible. For LDS they are companion scripture, a second witness. Not a replacement witness.

Great effort PC.

Ben Raines

I'm sure that nearly every LDS person, even most inactive ones, knows that the Bible is the word of God. IMHO some may be less attracted to it because those they perceive to be enemies of their church use that very book to thump them. But, sure, let me add my voice to those of your church leaders--do read the Bible. Don't allow the noisy few who use it for their own purposes to distract you from this gift, which is also from God.