Arnold Should Not Grant Him Clemency!

[dontagreeljefe]

If you believe Jesus is God of this world thou shalt not kill he that killeth shall die. It is better that a millstone be hung around there neck and dropped in the depths of the sea. He that killeth shall die.

He instituted the death penarlty for murder dont know were he said not too. People make him after there own image though.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 16 2005, 03:05 PM

Taoist Saint, I understand what you are saying, but I will note that Jesus never actually condemned the use of the death penalty -- just its use as a method to punish someone for sins that the persons holding the rocks had actually taken part in themselves.  I do not believe Arnold or any member of the California criminal justice system that sentenced Tookie has ever committed murder.

When Jesus said that people without sin should not cast stones at sinners, I think what he meant was that you should not judge a sinner because we are all sinners...I think it was more of a metaphor than a statement about throwing literal stones (execution).

However one could argue that by executing a murderer, you become guilty of "legal" murder yourself, if there was a reasonable alternative to execution. And that might be considered a sin in the eyes of God. And if that is the case, the California justice system has committed the sin of murder in the eyes of God. Maybe...

[Fiannan]

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

So would Jesus actually condemn our criminal justice system for not allowing execution for adults who rape children?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by dontagreeljefe@Dec 16 2005, 03:06 PM

If you believe Jesus is God of this world thou shalt not kill he that killeth shall die.  It is better that a millstone be hung around there neck and dropped in the depths of the sea.  He that killeth shall die.

He instituted the death penarlty for murder dont know were he said not too.  People make him after there own image though.

←

If you are quoting Old Testament...Law of Moses...that is a lesser law. Jesus replaced the older barbaric laws with new laws.

For example, you will find that in the Old Testament, the Death Penalty was given for just about everything...from breaking the Sabbath to worshipping false gods.

Is this still Jesus' law?

You will also find in the Old Testament that all debts are to be forgiven after 7 years. You don't even need to file for bankruptcy! That is Jesus' law! Then why do we need Bankruptcy laws? Shouldn't the States be obeying this sacred law?

So the law that murderers need to be killed WAS his law...but it may have changed along with all the other silly Laws of Moses.

Unless you are quoting something from D&C, because I am aware that the updated laws in there still say Jesus teaches Capital Punishment. And of course there is the whole Blood Atonement thing, which may or may not be doctrine.

So if we want to follow LDS law, you are absolutely right.

But the other 99% of Christians might disagree with you.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 16 2005, 03:23 PM

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

So would Jesus actually condemn our criminal justice system for not allowing execution for adults who rape children?

←

Sounds like he is talking about Christian children only. So if the child was Christian (as he said, they believe in him), we must execute the criminal. But if it was an atheist boy, the criminal will not be executed? Is this how Jesus wants things to be?

Furthermore maybe "offend" could include teaching them false religion, which would certainly offend a Christian child.

So maybe there needs to be the Death Penalty teaching them about other religions?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Dec 16 2005, 01:21 PM

I agree, but do you think it should also include education, on the chance that he can truly be reformed?

Or do you think the solitary life should be used to further his suffering as a form of revenge?

←

No, not for life without parole after such heinous crimes. I could see providing books to read, but nothing else. I don't think reformation for a capital case like that even comes into it; it should be a solitary life.

[Fiannan]

I believe what Jesus was referring to was that children naturally accepted him -- so in a sense he was talking of children in a universal form.

By offending, the traditional interpretation has been to harm the child -- and in a manner that I believe would be considered criminal -- not feed him so much sugar that he looks like the fat boy on "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory".

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Outshined+Dec 16 2005, 03:46 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Taoist_Saint@Dec 16 2005, 01:21 PM

I agree, but do you think it should also include education, on the chance that he can truly be reformed?

Or do you think the solitary life should be used to further his suffering as a form of revenge?

←

No, not for life without parole after such heinous crimes. I could see providing books to read, but nothing else. I don't think reformation for a capital case like that even comes into it; it should be a solitary life.

←

Well, it could still be a solitary life with reform. I am just talking about visits from psychiatrists, and perhaps priests or other spiritual teachers to help them change their attitude...but it would never lead to freedom...they would just learn to be a better person within the jail. In fact, not letting them free will be proof of the sincerity of their reform, because they will not be changing their attitudes for the purpose of freedom. They will be doing it for the good of their soul. And they can always refuse to reform...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 16 2005, 03:47 PM

I believe what Jesus was referring to was that children naturally accepted him -- so in a sense he was talking of children in a universal form.

By offending, the traditional interpretation has been to harm the child -- and in a manner that I believe would be considered criminal -- not feed him so much sugar that he looks like the fat boy on "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory".

←

It still sounds like it could be interpreted in various ways, much like any other biblical scripture.

Suppose you are right...this still doesn't clearly endorse Capital Punishment for murderers. The Law of Moses was much more clear about it, but as I mentioned above we don't follow those laws.

The only Christian scriptures I have seen to support Capital Punishment are LDS scriptures in the D&C.

Regardless...as a non-Christian, I still think Capital Punishment is morally wrong, even if Jesus commands it.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Outshined@Dec 16 2005, 03:46 PM

No, not for life without parole after such heinous crimes. I could see providing books to read, but nothing else. I don't think reformation for a capital case like that even comes into it; it should be a solitary life.

←

Outshined...

Although I like the fact that you think outside the box, why is it that you do not believe in the LDS scriptures that command Capital Punishment? If I remember correctly you are a "True Believing Mormon", aren't you?

Just curious how you justify it?

I'm not making fun of you...it is good that you question authority...

[Ray]

Tao,

Can you conceive of any circumstance in which a person should be sentenced to an end of their life as a result of their decision to intentionally end the life of someone who wasn't trying to kill them?

If not, then I believe you do not believe in “just” punishment in any circumstance, and would instead seem to support the idea of “mercy” for all, regardless of what someone has done.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 16 2005, 04:28 PM

Tao,

Can you conceive of any circumstance in which a person should be sentenced to an end of their life as a result of their decision to intentionally end the life of someone who wasn't trying to kill them?

If not, then I believe you do not believe in “just” punishment in any circumstance, and would instead seem to support the idea of “mercy” for all, regardless of what someone has done.

←

No, I do not see the purpose in ending the life of a murderer, as long as he is locked us to keep society safe.

Justice is not about revenge. Revenge is a personal thing, left for vigilantes.

The logical side of me says to spare the life of the murderer, but keep him locked up forever and try to reform him.

But I am an emotional being too...of course murder makes me angry. If someone murdered someone I loved, I would be extremely angry. It might even cause me to seek revenge outside the law...becoming the very vigilante I just mentioned. And what if I took the law into my own hands and murdered the murderer? Would I then deserve to be executed. I would not think so, though I would expect life in prison.

I hope I would not do anything like that...but anger can conquer our good sense and turn almost anyone into a murderer under certain circumstances.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Dec 16 2005, 04:35 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Dec 16 2005, 04:28 PM

Tao,

Can you conceive of any circumstance in which a person should be sentenced to an end of their life as a result of their decision to intentionally end the life of someone who wasn't trying to kill them?

If not, then I believe you do not believe in “just” punishment in any circumstance, and would instead seem to support the idea of “mercy” for all, regardless of what someone has done.

←

No, I do not see the purpose in ending the life of a murderer, as long as he is locked us to keep society safe.

Justice is not about revenge. Revenge is a personal thing, left for vigilantes.

←

You're right, justice is not about "revenge", justice is about providing "fairness, impartiality, and evenhandedness" for all people, so if somebody intentionally kills somebody else, then it is only "fair" that the person who intentionally killed be intentionally killed himself, otherwise there is no justice.

And btw, while I do believe there are certain conditions upon which mercy can be granted, I do not believe mercy should ever rob justice, otherwise there will be no true justice in that situation.

Or in other words, sentencing someone to live when they have intentionally killed someone else is not “justice”.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Question: If a man's family is killed, and he hunts down the murderer and kills him...it is premeditated...should he be executed for taking the life of the murderer?

You're right, justice is not about "revenge", justice is about providing "fairness, impartiality, and evenhandedness" for all people, so if somebody intentionally kills somebody else, then it is only "fair" that the person who intentionally killed be intentionally killed himself, otherwise there is no justice.

This is your own definition of justice...not mine.

If fairness = "an eye for an eye", then you are talking very clearly about revenge.

You have made up your mind so there is no sense in arguing.

I believe in compassion for all beings. I believe that whatever causes the least suffering is the right path. This goes beyond concepts of "equality". Life is not fair. We cannot make it fair. All we can do is minimize suffering.

All my reasons for being against Capital Punishment are listed above in my other posts...I have nothing to add.

You have nothing to worry about anyway...God is on your side, right?

[sgallan]

No, not for life without parole after such heinous crimes. I could see providing books to read, but nothing else. I don't think reformation for a capital case like that even comes into it; it should be a solitary life.

This is similar to what the Japanese prisons do for most sentences whether they are long or short..... it is a solitary regimented sentence.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Dec 16 2005, 05:25 PM

Outshined...

Although I like the fact that you think outside the box, why is it that you do not believe in the LDS scriptures that command Capital Punishment?  If I remember correctly you are a "True Believing Mormon", aren't you?

Just curious how you justify it?

I'm not making fun of you...it is good that you question authority...

←

I do believe in it in some circumstances (Polly Klaas' murderer comes to mind), but I think life without parole can be a harsh enough sentence for some. I think the rest of your life in a cell to ponder what you did and what you could have done with your life could be a very hard punishment.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 16 2005, 07:22 PM

No, not for life without parole after such heinous crimes. I could see providing books to read, but nothing else. I don't think reformation for a capital case like that even comes into it; it should be a solitary life.

This is similar to what the Japanese prisons do for most sentences whether they are long or short..... it is a solitary regimented sentence.

←

Yes, the Japanese prison system is very harsh compared to ours, but they have no gangs, few drugs, and an extremely low number of prison rapes.

[sgallan]

Yes, the Japanese prison system is very harsh compared to ours, but they have no gangs, few drugs, and an extremely low number of prison rapes.

From my POV it is less harsh. You are safe and if you follow the rules they mostly leave you alone. That would work for me.... I could do that kind of time.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 16 2005, 08:16 PM

Yes, the Japanese prison system is very harsh compared to ours, but they have no gangs, few drugs, and an extremely low number of prison rapes.

From my POV it is less harsh. You are safe and if you follow the rules they mostly leave you alone. That would work for me.... I could do that kind of time.

←

Good point; if you obey the rules, it sounds almost peaceful. It's when you step out of line that they come down on you. Hard.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by dontagreeljefe@Dec 16 2005, 03:06 PM

If you believe Jesus is God of this world thou shalt not kill he that killeth shall die.  It is better that a millstone be hung around there neck and dropped in the depths of the sea.  He that killeth shall die.

  He instituted the death penarlty for murder dont know were he said not too.  People make him after there own image though.

←

Just wanted to point out that "killing" isnt always a sin. Murder is what is always a sin.

And about Japan having few drugs, no gangs, etc etc......LOL WHAT ROCK ARE YOU HIDING UNDER? They have just as many gangs and drugs as the US.

The only place that I've been that seemed very lawful yet peaceful and a nice place to live and had virtually no crime is Singapore. Japan is one of the more dangerous places I've been.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Setheus@Dec 16 2005, 11:13 PM

And about Japan having few drugs, no gangs, etc etc......LOL WHAT ROCK ARE YOU HIDING UNDER?   They have just as many gangs and drugs as the US. 

The only place that I've been that seemed very lawful yet peaceful and a nice place to live and had virtually no crime is Singapore.   Japan is one of the more dangerous places I've been.

←

If you'd been paying attention, you'd know that we were talking about the Japanese prison system, not Japan as a whole. The facts speak for themselves on that subject. I'd be happy to provide some reading on it if you want.

Read before you ridicule.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Outshined@Dec 17 2005, 07:06 AM

Read before you ridicule.

←

Again, you're in denial if you dont think its going on....in the prisons too. Being in a stricter evniorment just means the crooks are more cunning and devious.

I mean, one wouldnt think that the slave trade is actually LARGER today than it was druing pre-civil war era would you? But you'd be wrong. Its huge! I personally locate human cargo druing MIO/LIO, VBSS missions all the time.

Japan prisions have the same problems we do....just better at hiding it.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Setheus+Dec 17 2005, 09:55 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Outshined@Dec 17 2005, 07:06 AM

Read before you ridicule.

←

Again, you're in denial if you dont think its going on....in the prisons too. Being in a stricter evniorment just means the crooks are more cunning and devious.

I mean, one wouldnt think that the slave trade is actually LARGER today than it was druing pre-civil war era would you? But you'd be wrong. Its huge! I personally locate human cargo druing MIO/LIO, VBSS missions all the time.

Japan prisions have the same problems we do....just better at hiding it.

←

Actually, having done quite a bit of research on the prison system in Japan, I have to disagree with your opinion, "denial" or not. The facts back me up on this. No one said the problems don't exist there, just to a much smaller degree, due to the stricter environment and harsh penalties.

Of course, no one is accusing you of "hiding under a rock" for having a different opinion...

[sgallan]

And about Japan having few drugs, no gangs, etc etc......LOL WHAT ROCK ARE YOU HIDING UNDER?

Japan must have changed a lot.

When I was there in the 70's as a kid I used to get on the train and just "go". When I got hopelessly lost I played dumb gajin and got help finding may way home. Mind you I lived in Yokosuka and Yokohama and my wanderings included pretty much all of metro Tokyo. This very much included leaving the train stations, getting on the buses, and wandering more. The only problems I ever had was with the occasional drunk right off the base in Yokosuka.

Now lets say I did the same in this country and ended up in pretty much any "just off of downtown area" as a 14-16 year old kid. With some money no less. It wouldn't be pretty.

[glindakc]

honestly, i feel sorry for tookie. but does that mean he should've been granted clemency? no, not in my opinion.

wow, that guy has admitted in his first trial that he murdered the 4 ppl. "'You should have heard the way he sounded when I killed him.' He then made growling noises and laughed for several minutes."

"He referred to the three in the motel incident as 'Buddah-heads."

Not a nice guy, in my opinion.

And he asked for clemency due to personal, spiritual redemption, yet he say there's no reason to apologize because he didn't do it?

nutcase.